Rebuild Overheating

[Alvor315]

The Story:
Just finished the latest rebuild on my 200 with my dad and we broke it in the first 600 miles on the way to Indianapolis for the Falcon Nationals. We were so close on time we set the timing just hours before we got on the road. I personally think we were lucky that it finally gave up about forty miles after Wendover. There is no way we would have found such a good Mechanic in our area. If anyone needs a mechanic in the Salt Lake area you should look up Lynn Devore. He lives in the Tooele area down Erda Way. He does everything from our old 60 Falcon to new big rigs.

Anyway, we broke down 40 miles out of Wendover and by some miracle found Lynn. We had been overheating across the pass from wendover to Salt Lake. We thought we should keep going because it wouldn't have goten any cooler sitting around, this was about 1:00 pm. At the 39 mile mark we got some horrible knock so we decided to pull off the road and let it cool down. About 30 minutes later we started it up again after the temerature cooled down below 170F. When we started it the knock was gone but we had a bigger problem, one of our pistons was back firing. Well at 1:45 we were stuck on the hotest stretch of salt flat that you could imagine, and stupid us, we poured our last two bottles of water in the radiator before we figured out the radiator wasn't the problem. Just before 6:00pm we were picked up by Danny the Tow Truck Driver, after sitting in a broken car with no air conditioning in the middle of no were with barely any cell phone reception (every time a semi-truck went by, the signal cut off). Lucky for us we had repacked the ice chest in Wendover and we sucked down Carrot, Grape, Cherry, Cocktail juice. Yummy.

Danny took us to Lynn and within minutes of getting there we had the valve cover off and found that the rear section of rocker arm shaft had snapped off at the bolt; so our exhaust valve on cylinder six was stuck closed and backfiring into the intake. HaHA, our major breakdown was just this little thing we could replace in no time, or so we thought. Next morning we were up in Salt Lake city and had a new 144 rocker arm assembly, we started the engine back up by lunch, but to our dismay the top end was getting no oil. No wonder the the last rocker arm snapped. By dinner we had the engine pulled and found that the camshaft bearing had melted and sealed up the oil passages. HOLY @#$% can anyone tell me why we were overheating? By dinner the next day we had replaced the cam bearings and reassembled the engine. On day three the engine was back in the Car. It was too late to get to Indianapolis, but atleast we had a way to get home.

We wanted to avoid the heat of the day so when we got our car back we went back to the motel and went right to bed. We got up at 1:00am loaded the car had breakfast (food was good, but if you want it quick don't go to the Country Pride diner in Tooele) by 2:30am we were on the road again. We tryed our miles per gallon at a gas station just before Lovelock. 21.954 mpg!!!!! the car was loaded with enough tools to rebuild the engine, enough clothes to get three people to Indianapolis and back to Tahoe, the three people me, my father, and my brother, and a pretty good sized cooler. I have no Idea what we did wrong! :

The Problem:
Hottest part of the day and we are traveling through Dayton just outside of Carson City. Uh oh car is overheating again. Were going over a good size hill and it knocks, the temperature gauge is reading 230-240F were abouts. All the way home which luckily was only about 50 miles at that point, the speedometer reads 35-40. We managed to keep it at 200F area the rest of the way.

The Queston:
What do I need to do to keep my daily driver cool at highway speeds? I was thinking about an Aluminum Gryphon Radiator.

Here's what we got:
Initial advance 24 degrees
'65 200 block bored .030 over; decked .040
'78 head milled .060; ported; 3 angle valve job; dual valve springs
280 cam running; rhoads v-max lifters
Static CR comes up to 9.3 (Our best guess)
Copper Radiator comes out of a 289 mustang

P.S. This novel I just wrote sounds like the Song Albequerquie by Weird Al. "All I was really trying to say is I... HATE... SOURCROUT!"

 

[Anonymous]

Cool story, but sorry to hear about the problems.

I don't have much experience with these particular engines, but if my engine was knocking under load (going up a hill), I'd try the following things:

1) If you're running 87 octane fuel, then try that same hill with a higher octane fuel to see if that minimizes the pinging / knocking.

2) I'd look at the air / fuel ratio (via wide band O2 testing) to make sure I'm not running too lean, whether its caused by an air leak or simply too lean of a mixture.

3) Also make sure you're timing isn't too far advanced to the point where it will cause the engine to ping under load.

If your running 91 octane from the pump and your air / fuel ratio is rich enough at all throttle positions (under load) and your timing is within spec, then maybe the coolant is moving too fast or too slow through the engine or maybe the radiator isn't of sufficient size. Does your engine have a radiator shroud? Could the fan clutch be crapping out? You could also try using a 70% water / 30 % glycol coolant mix instead of the 50/50 if that's what you're using.

I'm sure you'll get lots of great ideas for people who are more familiar with these engines, but hopefully I've given you some things to think about. Good luck!

 

[Alvor315]

We are running 91 octane.

I know that the mixture is richer than it should be because the pistons had carbon on them when we took the head off.

I'll have to test the antifreeze / water mixture, but I don't think it will make a difference I was having the same problems on the last build before we upped the compression ratio.

 

[addo]

Hot oil pressure is the first thing to check. Then I'd suggest cam timing and inspect the distributor gear for wear. It also sounds like Clifford or similar valve springs - are they overkill?

While the distributor may have been imperfect, it should have been pretty easy to set it for the "steady state" operation of highway travel. So I give that less weighting in my concerns. It would be nice to graph its advance curve in case there are issues...

Sounds as though you met some interesting and helpful characters.

 

[Alvor315]

It just occured to me that there was no antifreeze. So what do you reccomend in radiators?

Ours is a copper 3 row.

Edit*
Deffinately Cool guys. I forgot to mention that Dan the Tow Truck guy lent us his car for 4 days, enterprise didn't have any.

Oil pressure I'm not sure of, the distributor gear did have some wear on it, but that was before we rebuilt it. Just got home yesterday and haven't checked it yet.

I'm not sure about the dual valve springs, they are from clifford. They didn't cause any problems with the last rebuild. At WOT our cam has it's full duration and valve float may be a concern? I'm not sure.

Edit**
Does a fan shroud really help at highway speeds? I thought that was a solution for stop and go traffic?

 

[Anonymous]

Scratch the shroud idea cause it mainly helps at slower speeds. Sorry about that.

When you said there was no anti-freeze, did you mean you were running 100% water or ??? There's nothing wrong with running 100% distilled water as long as you keep on top of issues concerning corrosion and as long as your outside temps don't get near freezing, etc. Is this what you were running?

 

[Anonymous]

24 degrees BTDC initial timing???

Could be your problem right there. Over-advanced timing will run hot. I think the nominal range around here is 12-18. Mine detonates at 16, so I have to run 14. 24 sounds WAY advanced to me.

What's the condition/age of your water pump?

Thermostat condition/age/temp rating?

Have you had enough time with it to know if it gets hot just idling, or only on the highway?

 

[Alvor315]

Lynn Devore, the mechanic I wrote about, set the timing at 24 degrees. The temperature was always pretty good on the highway, but the CR was upped on the last rebuild.

In moderate temperature the temp stays right at 190.

The thermostat is 180.

I don't think the timing is the problem. I am at 4400 ft were I live here.

The water came right out of a garden hose. I know about corrosion, but the water was put in yesterday. I'm planning on puting in some antifreeze, or getting some distilled water.

When I took the engine apart the water pump seemed good. The blades were fine and the pump still ran freely.

Edit*
Maybe I'm confused about the timing, but I know at higher elevations rasing compression is less of a problem.

 

[Anonymous]

Are you talking total initial timing with the vacuum line connected?
Normally folks refer to initial timing as the timing set at idle with the vacuum line disconnected and plugged. If your distributor has no vacuum advance, then maybe the 24 deg is feasible. However, it probably would help if you backed off on the timing. What is your carb and distributor combination that you are running?
Doug

 

[Alvor315]

Yes, I mean 24 degrees initial advance with the vacuum tube disconected.

Carburetor is a Holley Weber 38 dgev.

Distributor is mechanical and vacuum advance.
This is were I got it from www.rockauto.com
This is the distributor www.rockauto.com/ref/Cardone/Detail.html?302613.jpg

 

[fxp]

I'm no expert on these things, but 24deg sounds waaay out of range. I had bad overheating problems on my rebuild until I realised the mechanics had set it to 10 deg with the vac still on. I re-set it with the vac off and presto - no more overheating (not to mention all the power and torque that appeared). Mine was running badly retarted and it was worse at higher speeds because the thing was running plenty of advance even at idle (I know it shouldn't but it does - haven't sussed that one yet).

Could it be yours is just too far advanced? When you did the rebuild did you check the timing mark was right? It costs nothing to set it to spec and see what happens.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, I mean 24 degrees initial advance with the vacuum tube disconected

I would try about 10* BTDC and see how that behaves. 24* initial will cause pinging and high piston temps in a 8-1 comp engine. I am running about 9.7 CR wirh all kinds of things to help out combustion and the most i can run without any problems on 89 oct. is about 12* BTDC. That kind of initial advance is famous for melting holes in piston crowns on air cooled engines. The higher the compression the less advance you want. I would be surprised with that much adv. that your valves are glowing red. The piston needs to be on the power stroke before all the fuel is burned as that much advance with good comp to boot there isn't much left for the down stroke. Remember that is what hi octane is all about--simply put, the higher the octane the slower gas burns. The higher the compression, the higher the fuel mix temp and the quicker the mix wants to burn, requireing more and more octane and less and less adv. to get power. Need the mix burning while the piston is going down not while still on the comp. stroke.

 

[AzCoupe]

First off, did the mechanic degree the cam when he installed the new bearings?

Next, have you checked the balancer to be certain the timing marks haven't slipped? If its old, there's a good chance it has and it needs to be replaced. Check the timing marks with the motor on TDC to verify.

Then reset the timing once you've done those two things.

 

[Alvor315]

The Balancer is 40 years old the only marks on it are the grooves cut into it. I think it would be pretty darn hard for the timing marks to slip on the timing chain cover. Seeing as they are cast into it.

I was there when the mechanic put the chain on, the marks on the gears lined up. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by degree the cam?

A new balancer may solve my vibration issues though. I was looking at the FSPP balancer but i don't think the dual pully will fit in my '60. It will hit the fan. Maybe it's time to look into a pusher fan?

 

[Anonymous]

If you look at the balancer closely, you will see that the ring with the grooves in it is bonded to the hub of the balancer with rubber. What happens when the balancer slips is the outer ring will have moved from its original position relative to the hub. You check for slippage by checking to see if the #1 cylinder is at TDC of the compression stroke when the mark on the balancer is lined up with the timing marks on the timing cover. Mine had slipped so far that I could not use a standard timing light to time it because the marks were way off. When I returned my car to the road after its restoration, I had an overheating problem caused by improper timing contributed in part by a slipped balancer and also by a non-functioning distributor advance on the Load-a-matic distributor.
Doug

 

[mjpchief]

66 is right. The ring on the harmonic balancer will slip with time. The timing mark on the balancer will not be in the right place with the crank.

Mine has slipped and until I can get a new one I set the timing with a vaccuum guage. You can also set the timing by ear if you know what you are doing. Just keep advancing the timing until the engine kicks back against the starter when starting. Then back the timing off a couple of degrees.

To set the timing with a vaccuum guage you hook the guage up on the intake and with the engine running, slowly advance the timing and watch the guage climb. When the guage quits climbing quit advancing the timing. This is kind of touchy so go slowly. You may have to back off with the distributor a little to prevent kickback.

Although the vaccuum method is very accurate, this is only done until I can find and afford a new harmonic balancer.

When using the vaccuum method I usually have the engine running at about 1500 rpm. That gives me a steady reading on the guage.

 

[ludwig]

I would look at the fuel/air mix as well. Too lean will lead to overheating. I have a rebuilt 200 and I used the vacuum method to set the fuel/air. You start the engine, then screw the fuel mix down to where it just starts to quit, then back off until you get the highest vacuum. I wanted to get the best economy I could so I set it at the max lean with max vacuum. Then I advanced the dist pretty far. Ran it up a couple of hills and backed it off until it stopped pinging.

I thought this was the hot tip, but it was really the hot problem. Going up a long grade I started to ping, then overheat and then it began to knock really loud. I backed way off on the throtte and got home OK. Then I backed the fuel mix out to run a little richer and backed the dist off. Everything has been fine after that. For me, the fuel/air mix was causing the overheating. Plus, you may be way too advanced on the the timing.

Forget the notch on the damper. Find TDC in the #1 cylinder and mark it on the balancer with a white pen. Set your idle in Drive. Time it with a light. Check if you are getting max vacuum at that point.

There was a long thread on cooling here some time ago. Try flushing the block and having the radiator boiled out. One of the gurus here, Jack Collins washed out casting sand from his cooling jacket in the block and got the water to flow much better. Try a wetting agent too, with the coolant. Make sure the water pump blades are actually turning on the shaft. They can start to free wheel with wear.

 

[AzCoupe]

The Balancer is 40 years old the only marks on it are the grooves cut into it. I think it would be pretty darn hard for the timing marks to slip on the timing chain cover. Seeing as they are cast into it.

A new balancer may solve my vibration issues though.

Obviously, the marks on the timing cover don't move. But if your balancer is 40 years old, and you have a vibration problem to boot, more than likely the rubber in the balancer is shot and the outer ring has slip. If you look closely, you will see that the balancer is actually two pieces, bonded together with a hard rubber substance. Over the years (40), this rubber wears out and losses it bonding capabilities. When this happens, it not only causes a vibration, it also allows the outer ring to spin out of its original position. The groove that is cut into the outer ring, is suppose to be at top dead center, however if the ring spins, it is no longer accurate. Since you set your timing by this mark, and if the outer ring has spun, the timming is no longer accurate either. In fact, it could, and more than likely, is several degrees advanced. This could easily be the cause of your over heating issues.

I was there when the mechanic put the chain on, the marks on the gears lined up. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by degree the cam?

Degreeing a cam is a bit more difficult to explain. But I'll try to give you the basic idea.

All cams come with a cam card, which specifies the valve timing. In other words, when the valves open, and when they close. The more accurate the valve timing is, the better the motor will run. If the mechanic doesn't have a cam card when reinstalling the cam or when installing a new timing chain, he can only go by the dots. These dots are sufficient enough to get the valve timing close, but can be as far as 10-15 degrees off, robbing you of valuable power and gas mileage.

Here's a couple links that explain it better than I can. If you search the web, there are lots more. Most cam manufacturers also post tech articles on it. Clay Smith Cams produced and sells a great video, explaining it in laymens terms, which are easy to understand.

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=article&id=3

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0310_deg/

 

[philford]

I can't really help with the rebuild or cam issues but I can say my 88 van had overheating issues and replacing the old copper core rad with a new aluminum one made a night and day difference.. I also have an old ( 1966 Volvo) with a copper rad and took that on myself, removed the top and bottom, cut wood sticks to just fit the tubes and worked all the crud out of them , that worked as well and also restored cooling.
when I had overheat issues in my van it was pulling a boat up a huge steep mountain during the heat of day, nightfall brought the cooling down so I could safely continue,
I merely had to wait. If you have a rebuilt engine and it's that hot , breaking it in at night makes sense. sure you might have extra friction with a new rebuild .

my guess is your rad core is plugged and needs cleaning or replacement probably a rad shop unless you are determined. If I did it again I'd remove either the top or the bottom , I dont think both is necessary. I did it with a plumbers acetylene torch,
( not oxy- acetylene)but the rad shops have a hot solder bath, which is probably a lot easier.

I pressure tested mine in a washtub full of water, with maybe 30 PSI and checked for bubbles, found a couple of weak spots to re-solder. then was ok.

I questioned if I wanted an aluminum rad, Kept the old one in case I was ever sorry. It can be rebuilt.

in my old volvo I can drive the oil pump wiht a drill , I pull the distributor and made a rod to fit the oil pump.

so I did that to prime the motor prior to starting, also prior to installing the head, to make sure the oil galleys are clear before head goes on. theory is any crud stuck in an oil galley cant exit the head so it could be stuck in a bearing or bearing entry point , maybe for the feed of the cam bearings or rocker shafts. there is no way for anythign of any size to pass through or to back track.

not sure if a ford is like that. if it is maybe you can make sure you have some oil in the top end.

I talked to one guy that took a hunk of carpet, soaked it in oil and put it in his rocker cover to drip all over. maybe that's too mickey mouse but at least made for a good story ;-)

there is a guy on youtube he took an old 300 six apart, one from the wreckers that had failed, he took it apart to see why it failed.

he showed a bunch of crap , bits of plastic and such, they had sort of floated on the oil but got under the oil pump inlet and were stuck there , blocking the oil inlet. it looked like they "wanted to float" but there is sort of an upside down cavity there where they got stuck and would never leave,
seemed like an oil change was overdue. maybe they could have sunk to the pan if he did? not sure how plastic bits got in his engine. maybe he did somethign stupid like putting carpet in the valve cover ;-)

i blew up a cam in a new engine, the problem I created was that I had the head done, stainless steel valve eats, i polished the ports and had the guides knurled.. put in new springs.
what was incorrect was that the valve stems had sunk downward after the head work, changing the relationship of the valve keepers. that made the springs just slightly loose, nothing I could notice.
on that car I set valves with a feeler guage and there becomes a dibit in the bottom of the rocker, then when you insert a feeler guage well it cant; account for this dibit.. I can polishit off but they are case hardened so it comes back.

the workaround I used was to get close with a feeler guage but then to check how much I could rock the rocker with a magnetic base and a dial indicator. in that way I could reduce the clearance to make up for the problem of the feeler guage not really working right.

i thinkif the valves are adjusted a bit loose then that means more closed time and thats where the heat reansfers to the head. the adjustment affects the amount of dwell it has in valve colosed time. the theory is that if the valves do not t close for a long enough period it might reduce the heat transfer time and overheat them.

so the valves floated and at higher revs, were taking flight , landing upon the cam and destroyed things.. what fixed it was just adding about .020 thick washers, I checked with papaer strips for the coils to make sure they weren't binding up. the springs appeared to be working fine but i guess that .020" of less spring pressure made a big difference. I had installed a hotter cam but nothign radical it was a stock volvo grind from a P1800 ES or a volve D cam.. bit higher rev power.

thats in a push rod underhead cam engine, not sure if the ford is a lot different , I'm also not that familiar with hydraulic lifters. It did teach me though , if you work on a head , check the valve spring length before, and compare to after. because a new position of the valve itself may mean a different distance between the spring land and the valve stem keeper slot.