A
Anonymous
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cfmustang":3n7lca3e said:
Pull all the plugs to make it easier and disconnect battery, too.
Turn engine over VERY slowly by hand with a large wrench on large nut on dampner.
SOLVED: Still running poorly, still having vacuum issues
- Thread starter cfmustang
- Start date
Pull all the plugs to make it easier and disconnect battery, too.
Turn engine over VERY slowly by hand with a large wrench on large nut on dampner.
Thanks, everyone.
I removed the plugs, but didn't unhook the battery. Just curious, but how does that make it easier to turn?
I'll try the wrench, but I was looking and it looks like the fan will get in the way. Unless you mean that I will have to do it from underneith?
Anyway, I'll try and veryify the TDC mark this week, but it may have to wait till Sunday. I work during the day and go to school at night and I have to study for a C++ final on Friday.
MustangSix, I haven't forgotten about the sound clips. I will get them this week. In fact, that may be one thing I have time to do tomorrow after work.
MontegoMan, Thanks for the explanation. That will come in handy once I get the intial timing under control.
Jimbo65, It is good to see someone with a similar setup had similar problems. I was starting to think I was the only one. Most of what you said made sense, but I may have some specific questions along the way. A couple of questions though... Where did you get the springs for the dizzy? Did you have to change the weights? How do you check the mixture with a vac pump? Did you eventually hook the vac advance back up?
My biggest problem that no one has really explained yet is why I have to set the idle screw all the way in to get even 900-1000 RPMS idle? Is it because my initial timing is too low? Should verifing the TDC mark and advancing it to 16 allow the idle screw to be where Weber it should be when setting the idle (1 to 1.5 turns in from where it just starts hitting the arm)? Is that what is causing all the engine shaking and mixture issues (i.e. someone mentioned running in the primary circut when it should be in the idle circut)?
Lastly, I have checked every place I can think of for vac leaks and think I got them all - but one. One of my adapter to carb studs is stripped at the top and can not be tightened all the way. I plan to replace the stud this weekend and am considering pulling the whole adapter and regasketing the adapter to the intake by making two new gaskets and double them up. That that sound like a good idea?
Sorry about all the questions, I'm just frustrated, thats all.
I removed the plugs, but didn't unhook the battery. Just curious, but how does that make it easier to turn?
I'll try the wrench, but I was looking and it looks like the fan will get in the way. Unless you mean that I will have to do it from underneith?
Anyway, I'll try and veryify the TDC mark this week, but it may have to wait till Sunday. I work during the day and go to school at night and I have to study for a C++ final on Friday.
MustangSix, I haven't forgotten about the sound clips. I will get them this week. In fact, that may be one thing I have time to do tomorrow after work.
MontegoMan, Thanks for the explanation. That will come in handy once I get the intial timing under control.
Jimbo65, It is good to see someone with a similar setup had similar problems. I was starting to think I was the only one. Most of what you said made sense, but I may have some specific questions along the way. A couple of questions though... Where did you get the springs for the dizzy? Did you have to change the weights? How do you check the mixture with a vac pump? Did you eventually hook the vac advance back up?
My biggest problem that no one has really explained yet is why I have to set the idle screw all the way in to get even 900-1000 RPMS idle? Is it because my initial timing is too low? Should verifing the TDC mark and advancing it to 16 allow the idle screw to be where Weber it should be when setting the idle (1 to 1.5 turns in from where it just starts hitting the arm)? Is that what is causing all the engine shaking and mixture issues (i.e. someone mentioned running in the primary circut when it should be in the idle circut)?
Lastly, I have checked every place I can think of for vac leaks and think I got them all - but one. One of my adapter to carb studs is stripped at the top and can not be tightened all the way. I plan to replace the stud this weekend and am considering pulling the whole adapter and regasketing the adapter to the intake by making two new gaskets and double them up. That that sound like a good idea?
Sorry about all the questions, I'm just frustrated, thats all.
A
Anonymous
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cfmustang":3tjqzejm said:
Haha, it doesn't - But it does prevent a hole in the piston if someone accidentally turns the key!
A
Anonymous
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cfmustang":2es0tp9t said:
No Unhook the battery ALWAYS... that is silly... DISCONNECT the battery...
(pulling the plugs releases the pressure on the pistons, so when you crank through the compression stroke you will smell lovely gas coming out of the plug holes - if the plugs are in tight you will have a hard time cranking by hand... I cannot turn mine at all with them all the way in)
I remove the plugs and use an old torque wrench with a socket on the bolt in the center of the crank. There is just enough room to slip mine down between the radiator and the flexfan, but it is much easier with the fan removed. You want to stand over the engine and turn the crank while you can watch the number one plug hole and stick yer nose in there for a wif of fumes on the stroke.
cfmustang":2es0tp9t said:
are you talking about Curb Idle Speed or Mixture? when you say Idle screw? I am confused?
My story:
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=
Some good advice on tuning with the vacume gauge:
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ge+mixture
as for me, I broke down and took it to my machinist. He adjusted the hex inside the canister for vacume and put in springs to slow things down... but the real problem was the float level.. and the increased rpms... the timing was not that far off mechanically, just a bit crazy on the vacume advance. But I was getting numbers like 20 degrees at 2500 rpms and it was really even less than that... my timing (and I) was retarted in many ways.
once the fuel was running right, the timing came up and fell fairly close to in place and I was able to adjust the mixture screws for best vacume.
Literally 30 minutes in the parking lot with the machinist and then I walked across to lunch - came back and the dizzy was back in the car - we made some adjustments and I drove off... I have not opened the hood except for an oil change in the last seven months.
It runs good now, but can run better. I am working on locking the distributor down and installing EFI with a laptop to control this and dial in the curves on the Dyno... that is starting up to be my summer project.
We'll see!! maybe goodbye carby-carb soon....
A
Anonymous
Guest
The timing will greatly affect the idle quality. Improper timing will make the car idle poorly. A working vacuum advance will speed up the engine idle and smooth it out increasing the engine vacuum. But I suspect you may have a combination of timing and carburetion problems. The lumpy cam is giving a weaker signal to the carb, and you may not be getting enough fuel at idle. Check the float level again to make sure it is not starving for fuel. It sounds like you are screwing in the idle speed screw in order to raise the idle to create enough vacuum to draw in more fuel. The faster speed is also likely kicking in some centrifugal advance. The problem is, that with the idle speed screw all the way in, the throttle plates are open too much, and a consistent idle will be hard to achieve and off idle performance will be poor.
Doug
Doug
I'll look again when I get home, but the new 4-row radiator is thinker so I dont think I have enough room to spin it from the top with the fan in. I'll also have to look and see if there is enough room to remove the fan with the radiator in. I really don't want to have to remove the radiator again...
Sorry about the confusion with the idle and mixture screws. This is a Weber so you only have one of each. An idle speed screw and a mixture screw. The mixture screw does not actually change the mixture, that is done before you get to the that screw. It just changes the amount of mixed air/fuel bleeds in at idle. According to everything I have read about Webers. You are supposed to set the idle screw 1 - 1.5 turns in from where it is just starting to open the plates (after the choke is fully opened) and the mixture screw 1.5 - 2 turns out from closed. It should run slowly but run at that point and you are supposed to adjust the mixture at that point.
My problem is I have to turn my idle screw all the way in to get it to idle where it does not stall in the first place (around 900 rpm). The wierd thing is if I cause a vac leak at idle, the rpms go up and it smooths out. I was just wondering if that was caused by the inital timing being too low and if that was causing all of my problems.
Doug, what you are describing is what some others have mentioned I think. It is kind of like a dog chasing its tail. However, others are saying that I am running too rich because of the vac leak causing it to run better and the sooty plugs.
Man what I wouldn't pay to have one of you guys under the hood of my car for a couple of hours...
Sorry about the confusion with the idle and mixture screws. This is a Weber so you only have one of each. An idle speed screw and a mixture screw. The mixture screw does not actually change the mixture, that is done before you get to the that screw. It just changes the amount of mixed air/fuel bleeds in at idle. According to everything I have read about Webers. You are supposed to set the idle screw 1 - 1.5 turns in from where it is just starting to open the plates (after the choke is fully opened) and the mixture screw 1.5 - 2 turns out from closed. It should run slowly but run at that point and you are supposed to adjust the mixture at that point.
My problem is I have to turn my idle screw all the way in to get it to idle where it does not stall in the first place (around 900 rpm). The wierd thing is if I cause a vac leak at idle, the rpms go up and it smooths out. I was just wondering if that was caused by the inital timing being too low and if that was causing all of my problems.
Doug, what you are describing is what some others have mentioned I think. It is kind of like a dog chasing its tail. However, others are saying that I am running too rich because of the vac leak causing it to run better and the sooty plugs.
Man what I wouldn't pay to have one of you guys under the hood of my car for a couple of hours...
A
Anonymous
Guest
To be honest I forgot about your foulded plug issue. So maybe you are running rich, but it could be a float setting issue. The rich mixture could be causing it to run poor and contributing to the low vacuum. And you are right, the dog is chasing the tail. With the idle speed throttle stop screw all the way in, the idle is not going to be consistent. Either one or both the float level and the ignition timing may be the source of your poor idle.
The piston stop and checking the accuracy of the timing mark is a good starting point. Mine Balancer timing mark was so far off, it would not run if I timed it with the timing light. I ended up timing it by ear to get it to run. I verified that the mark had slipped and I replaced the balancer.
Also don't overlook verifying the point gap or dwell. They affect timing to some extent.
Doug
The piston stop and checking the accuracy of the timing mark is a good starting point. Mine Balancer timing mark was so far off, it would not run if I timed it with the timing light. I ended up timing it by ear to get it to run. I verified that the mark had slipped and I replaced the balancer.
Also don't overlook verifying the point gap or dwell. They affect timing to some extent.
Doug
Yup, to put a wrench on the dampener, I am going to have to remove the fan to and man will that be close without damaging the shiney new radiator.
As for the plugs, they were not all the same but ran in the range from .30 to .40. I set them all to .35 for now (I'll put the Pertronix in once I get the rest of this sorted out).
As for the overheating, I am sitting outside in the car as I write this (love the wireless router) and after 15 mins it is sitting pretty at a litttle less than half-way on the temp gauge. I am going to sit here and surf for another 15 to 30 minutes and see if the temp goes any higher. It looks like it may have been just the first time out with the new radiator and it not being bled.
When I check back, I'll upload the sound files that MustangSix asked for...
As for the plugs, they were not all the same but ran in the range from .30 to .40. I set them all to .35 for now (I'll put the Pertronix in once I get the rest of this sorted out).
As for the overheating, I am sitting outside in the car as I write this (love the wireless router) and after 15 mins it is sitting pretty at a litttle less than half-way on the temp gauge. I am going to sit here and surf for another 15 to 30 minutes and see if the temp goes any higher. It looks like it may have been just the first time out with the new radiator and it not being bled.
When I check back, I'll upload the sound files that MustangSix asked for...
Ugh, for the next 15 or so minutes the temp sloowly crept up till it was a little over 5/6 of the temp gauge. Not as bad as it was, but still a bit high. If I would have put it in gear at that point, it would have started running real rough.
As for the sound files, here you go. The first is when the engine is first started. The choke plates are closed (at least they appear to be...those are the butterflys on the top of the carb and they are as close to horizontal as they get). I recordsed from the back and then moved the laptop to the engine compartment. The file is about 750 kb.
Cold
Here is it after it has warmed up. Again, I start in the back and then move it to the engine compartment. This file is about 1.2 meg.
Warm
As for the sound files, here you go. The first is when the engine is first started. The choke plates are closed (at least they appear to be...those are the butterflys on the top of the carb and they are as close to horizontal as they get). I recordsed from the back and then moved the laptop to the engine compartment. The file is about 750 kb.
Cold
Here is it after it has warmed up. Again, I start in the back and then move it to the engine compartment. This file is about 1.2 meg.
Warm
If you tighten the fan belt really tight you should be able to turn the engine over by hand using the fan. Even if the belt is dead loose you can simply push on the slack side of the belt with one hand and turn thr fan with the other hand. I have done this many times, no wrenches are needed.
Joe
Joe
Chris, about everyone in the world has made very valid suggestions to fix your problem.
First not related to your problem, the compression is too low for top performance. you should have at least 175-195 psi for top performance even with your camshaft, but that is a different issue on a different day.
I agree with Doug-mustang geezer, get rid of the hw & install at least a 350 holley carb which can be more easily tuned. With the hw if your fuel pressure is too high it will cause you to run rich.
If you decide to go with a holley make sure you have at least 6 + lbs of fuel pressure.
I would recommend a decent duraspark distributor. Get in touch with scott @ http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com ... index.html
& get a professional recurved distributor for your engine.
You probably need about 16 degrees initial + 20 degrees centrifigul advance for a total of 36 degrees, with a vacuum canister in addition for proper fuel miliage.
With the camshaft in your engine make sure you have manifold vacuum to the distributor at idle for decent idle & part throttle performance.
Back to your compression readings, either raise the compression & or advance the camshaft 4 degrees to get the cranking compression up to where it should be for the componets you have in your engine.
Let us know??????? William
First not related to your problem, the compression is too low for top performance. you should have at least 175-195 psi for top performance even with your camshaft, but that is a different issue on a different day.
I agree with Doug-mustang geezer, get rid of the hw & install at least a 350 holley carb which can be more easily tuned. With the hw if your fuel pressure is too high it will cause you to run rich.
If you decide to go with a holley make sure you have at least 6 + lbs of fuel pressure.
I would recommend a decent duraspark distributor. Get in touch with scott @ http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com ... index.html
& get a professional recurved distributor for your engine.
You probably need about 16 degrees initial + 20 degrees centrifigul advance for a total of 36 degrees, with a vacuum canister in addition for proper fuel miliage.
With the camshaft in your engine make sure you have manifold vacuum to the distributor at idle for decent idle & part throttle performance.
Back to your compression readings, either raise the compression & or advance the camshaft 4 degrees to get the cranking compression up to where it should be for the componets you have in your engine.
Let us know??????? William
William,
Actually I have been wondering if I did it right. How is it done? I just screwed the gauge into each spark plug hole, one at a time, and cranked the engine for a few seconds. Should I have started it and reved the engine?
As for replaceing the Weber with a Holly, wont that require machining the head to attach a hand made adapter plate to the head? Right now, that is way out of my budget (for the carb by itself, let alone the machine work). Same goes for the duraspark. I already spent the money for the new dizzy last fall. Besides, I wouldn't have a clue how to wire it in...
As for advanceing the cam, again that is way beyond my skill set. If I am going to go through all the trouble of paying someone to pulling the head to advance the cam, I am going to pull that cam for a FSPP dual pattern 264 110* or the 268 110*. Also, I will replace the timing gears and chain with the FSPP and finally the FSPP balancer. Unfortuanatly, that is REALLY out of the budget right now.
As it is, my wife is still a little ticked that I spent $3800 on a rebuild last year and the car still runs so bad.
It is not that I disagree with your suggestions, it is just that for now it looks like I have to work with what I have.
Actually I have been wondering if I did it right. How is it done? I just screwed the gauge into each spark plug hole, one at a time, and cranked the engine for a few seconds. Should I have started it and reved the engine?
As for replaceing the Weber with a Holly, wont that require machining the head to attach a hand made adapter plate to the head? Right now, that is way out of my budget (for the carb by itself, let alone the machine work). Same goes for the duraspark. I already spent the money for the new dizzy last fall. Besides, I wouldn't have a clue how to wire it in...
As for advanceing the cam, again that is way beyond my skill set. If I am going to go through all the trouble of paying someone to pulling the head to advance the cam, I am going to pull that cam for a FSPP dual pattern 264 110* or the 268 110*. Also, I will replace the timing gears and chain with the FSPP and finally the FSPP balancer. Unfortuanatly, that is REALLY out of the budget right now.
As it is, my wife is still a little ticked that I spent $3800 on a rebuild last year and the car still runs so bad.
It is not that I disagree with your suggestions, it is just that for now it looks like I have to work with what I have.
When doing a compression check, remove all spark plugs and hold the throttle wide open to allow a full charge of air in the cylinders.
Don't give up on it yet, you are actually closer to success than you realize. Just hang in there, it will get better
I am very familiar with budget limitations myself but there is no reason that your engine can't be made to run decently. Just take one step at a time.
Joe
Don't give up on it yet, you are actually closer to success than you realize. Just hang in there, it will get better
I am very familiar with budget limitations myself but there is no reason that your engine can't be made to run decently. Just take one step at a time.Joe
I'm not sure the $3800 was misspent. There's just those baselining issues like TDC verification, which need to be completed before the most direct course charted.
Compression needs to be checked under the following conditions:
Compression needs to be checked under the following conditions:
- Engine at operating temperature (thermostat has opened)
- All spark plugs removed
- Coil lead removed from dizzy cap and grounded for safety
- Carb wedged at WOT
- Engine cranked several revolutions until reading does not go higher. Note to be taken of whether needle rises unevenly or climbs steadily.
- Tests repeated with 1 dessertspoon of engine oil squirted into each pot immediately before re-test. Use a vet-size syringe.
That would probably explain why my numbers are so low. I left all the other plugs in except for the one I was testing and also had the coil wire still attached to the dizzy.
I have some questions though...
Why/how ground the coil wire to the dizzy? Shouldn't just removing it all together do the same?
Why wedge the carb open?
How do I crank the engine and watch the gauge at the same time? If I am in the drivers seat, I can't see the gauge?
I have some questions though...
Why/how ground the coil wire to the dizzy? Shouldn't just removing it all together do the same?
Why wedge the carb open?
How do I crank the engine and watch the gauge at the same time? If I am in the drivers seat, I can't see the gauge?
A
Anonymous
Guest
FWIW,
I was talking about the ignition point gap or dwell in the distributor, not the spark plug gap.
Doug
I was talking about the ignition point gap or dwell in the distributor, not the spark plug gap.
Doug
cfmustang":3zo6ls0q said:
#1) The coil is building up spark energy which needs to be dissipated to ground. Better to just ground the wire so as to ensure a proper path to ground for the spark than to allow it to arc across the coil tower which can cause carbon tracking that can lead to mysterious misfires in the rain.
#2) As I noted above, the throttle should be held wide open to allow a full charge of air into the cylinders. The butterflies restrict (throttle) the air flow into the engine when they are closed. This will result in an inaccurate reading.
#3) You need to invest in a device known as a "remote starter switch". Either that or enlist the aid of a "significant other" (whichever is cheaper)
Joe
Chris, one thing you can do besides getting your carb problem resolved, is put in the FSPP timing chain & adjustable gears. This way you just have to pull the timing chain cover & advance the camshaft with the installation of this quality part.
Just a thought to save you money. William
Just a thought to save you money. William
Well, I lucked out and I will have some free time this afternoon to verify the TDC mark and rerun the compression test. I may even open the dizzy and verify which weight is being used (I'm thinking it is probably 15). Then I will try and at least get the initial set right.
I am trying not to get too confident, but after reading the link Jimbo gave describing what he was going through, this sounds REALLY similar. If that is true, I should be able to at least recurve the mechanical advance of the dizzy into the ballpark by myself and get it running way better. I did some research on Friday and found several websites on the topic and it doesn't look that bad. I will need to find a source for some lighter springs though...
Once I get it running decently, I can wait awhile to either replenish the funds enough for a professionally recurved Duraspark or get my current dizzy recurved locally (I'll have to ask around at the cruises for some shop around with a sun machine).
I am trying not to get too confident, but after reading the link Jimbo gave describing what he was going through, this sounds REALLY similar. If that is true, I should be able to at least recurve the mechanical advance of the dizzy into the ballpark by myself and get it running way better. I did some research on Friday and found several websites on the topic and it doesn't look that bad. I will need to find a source for some lighter springs though...
Once I get it running decently, I can wait awhile to either replenish the funds enough for a professionally recurved Duraspark or get my current dizzy recurved locally (I'll have to ask around at the cruises for some shop around with a sun machine).
