Straight gas turbo?

[Anonymous]

Hey guys, my turbo el is in the process of getting a turbo setup, once it's finished it should be seeing around 300 rwkw, fuelling is obviously going to be an issue with this setup and originally I wanted a wolf 3d (or similar with 600cc injectors and a walbro 500hp fuel pump all up just for parts it will cost just over $2k, then there's the tuning of the ECU and installation which will see it costing over $3k for the fuelling alone, after all this petrol will still be expensive!

Now iv'e been thinking about going straight gas after seeing cars like EZY10 and the VL turbo GAS747, it doesn't seem like abad idea. I have a bit of knowledge on duel fuel systems as I used to own a EB on duel fuel, but i'm not sure on straight gas setups, I know i'll need: a throttle body(GRA is all i know of), convertors (from what i've seen the twin GRA B2 setup seems good), lines, tank and an ignition computer.

Now i'm not too sure on how much it will cost all up, I heard the parts alone aren't too expensive it's just the installation that costs alot. I'm confident with installing the convertors and TB etc and could get the tank/lines get done by a pro, I could also get them to check over the rest of the installation too.

So to anyone that has done something similar, how much did it end up costing all up? I wouldn't mind knowing what parts you got etc. I can't get in touch with gas research for some reason I think there site is down or something. What sort of GRA throttle body would I need? I know they have different CFM ratings etc what would be sutied to around 300rwkw? I want more in the future so it needs to support around 350rwkw later down the track.

In my EB I experianced that I would get less km's for the same amount of gas compared to petrol, i'm guessing that it will be the same with straight gas obviously but to anyone that has a turbo straight gas falcon how many km's do you get out of your tank and how big is it? I'm going to try and get the biggest tank possible and practicle

That's enough writing from me for today, i'm sure i've missed out some important points but just ask if you need more information and i'll tell ya's!

Cheers in advanced!

 

[xctasy]

Welcome. Ramble below.

If you read this, you may need mediaction afterwards...




My old Pommy spec Cortina TF had a 2.3 V6, which was turboed with a propane carb with an IHI turbo from a Telstar Turbo/Mazda 626 Magnum. It was easy to plumb the system , easy to get it running, no issues with any vacum excpet the imported C4 transmission. I installed it on a 190000 km engine with messed up valve seals. I uesde the Impco CA 300 carb on a 2-bbl 35 Solex carb, and set it up using Impcos 173 Chevy V6 . It was easy to do, as Ford V6's


The problem with modern cars is the EFI and ignition managment systems are very highly developed, and any propane Turbo with a carb, even if its GRA's with a B2 converter, it will suffer from spark plug and fuel consumption problems. It will then requie a totally reworked ignition.

When you strip it down to a factory EL with LPG system, you loose the sequential injection, the infinately adjustable ignition is only suitable for the stock LPG set-up, and the transmission, if its automatic, still has to recieve the right information to operate. There was 20 years worth of Ford EFI developement, and evey system then has to be biffed away, since its not set up for a propane turbo.

For a street propane turbo set-up, its better to go back to stone age electronic ignition with a conventional boost retard, and then run the easiest to get and service carb mixer and vaporiser. Turbo, intercooling, propane set-up is the simple part, and anything should work.

On my Cortina, the factory US 2800 Capri electronic ignition had a boost retard on it, and it the stock ignition curve could be used off boost, and then when the IHI gave 6 psi, it could then retard the igniton system.

In your case, the later EL had returned to an electronic ignition system after the earlier ones lost there layshaft diriven ignition.

So you've got to reduce total spark lead to no more than 28 dgrees under 10 pounds of boost (25 degrees under more than that), but still have part throttle advance up to 35 to 40 degrees to maintain economy. Liegh from GRA said in 1996 that the untlimate worst thing with LPG is the part throttle back fire when you advance the ignition heaps. Under load, it goes great, with heaps orf torque and good power. Back off and get back on the gas, it backfires.

When you go into a corner on trailing throttle, an EFI car ramps up the advance to 40 to 48 degrees total as manifold pressure is high, and lean the engine off to 17 ot even 22:1 air fuel. Stand on the gas, and a petrol EFI will then change the advance to 35 to 40, and then richen the mixture to 15:1 to avoid any detonation or lean back fire. There is no petrol in the plenumb chamber, so no problems.

On an LPG car, the peak advnace needs to be high to improve fuel econmy, but the monent the car sees a return on the gas, the advance must be less than 32 degrees in just a normally aspirated LPG car. If its turboed, part throttle advnace can still be high, but it must be less than 28 degrees under low bost, less than 25 as it comes on the boost. And the air fuel mixture must not be rich or it will burn out the exhast valves.

The carb systems on a propane car are basically reverse Howitzers. If you run the stock advance system, you will lean backfire the lpg in the manifold, and blow the carbs off.

My suggestion is to talk with GRA, and ask them what ignition system you will have to use.

If I was in your situaton, I wouldn't worry about an engine management system at all, just a brilliant ignition system which you can easily replace. I'd look at avoiding a full soild state trigger system, because they are expensive, and must ensure that you can change the system easily. I'd look at just a reworked XF distributor, and then adding a remote MSD turbo ignition set up. If it breaks, just add a locked in 25 or 28 degree total advance XE Bosch Duraspark set-up with the vacum advance removed. The XF is a thin film ignition which should work with the long nose EL plugs, and the aftermarket set-ups from MSD or Holley should be able to be tailoured to suit.

You need to avoid the big bang, and you must have a fall back, safety first option.

In the old days of 11 second XE Alloy heads on propane with turbo, it was easy. You just made up a conservative ignition system with less than 25 total degrees advance, added a C9, a got set of gears in your BW diif, and that was it.

Today, you need the best advice, and the easiest, most adjustable system that won't break your engine. That won't give the sort of economy an XR6 Turbo gives, but it will avoid killing your engine.

 

[xctasy]

Welcome. Ramble below.

If you read this, you may need mediaction afterwards...




My old Pommy spec Cortina TF had a 2.3 V6, which was turboed with a propane carb with an IHI turbo from a Telstar Turbo/Mazda 626 Magnum. It was easy to plumb the system , easy to get it running, no issues with any vacum excpet the imported C4 transmission. I installed it on a 190000 km engine with messed up valve seals. I used the Impco CA 300 carb on a 2-bbl 35 Solex carb, and set it up using Impcos 173 Chevy V6 service bulletin. It was easy to do, as early Ford V6's have only two pipes per bank.


The problem with modern cars is the EFI and ignition managment systems are very highly developed, and any propane Turbo with a carb, even if its GRA's with a B2 converter, it will suffer from spark plug and fuel consumption problems. It will then requie a totally reworked ignition.

When you strip it down to a factory EL with LPG system, you loose the sequential injection, the infinately adjustable ignition is only suitable for the stock LPG set-up, and the transmission, if its automatic, still has to recieve the right information to operate. There was 20 years worth of Ford EFI developement, and evey system then has to be biffed away, since its not set up for a propane turbo.

For a street propane turbo set-up, its better to go back to stone age electronic ignition with a conventional boost retard, and then run the easiest to get and service carb mixer and vaporiser. Turbo, intercooling, propane set-up is the simple part, and anything should work.

On my Cortina, the factory US 2800 Capri electronic ignition had a boost retard on it, and it the stock ignition curve could be used off boost, and then when the IHI gave 6 psi, it could then retard the igniton system.

In your case, the later EL had returned to an electronic ignition system after the earlier ones lost there layshaft diriven ignition.

So you've got to reduce total spark lead to no more than 28 dgrees under 10 pounds of boost (25 degrees under more than that), but still have part throttle advance up to 35 to 40 degrees to maintain economy. Liegh from GRA said in 1996 that the untlimate worst thing with LPG is the part throttle back fire when you advance the ignition heaps. Under load, it goes great, with heaps orf torque and good power. Back off and get back on the gas, it backfires.

When you go into a corner on trailing throttle, an EFI car ramps up the advance to 40 to 48 degrees total as manifold pressure is high, and lean the engine off to 17 ot even 22:1 air fuel. Stand on the gas, and a petrol EFI will then change the advance to 35 to 40, and then richen the mixture to 15:1 to avoid any detonation or lean back fire. There is no petrol in the plenumb chamber, so no problems.

On an LPG car, the peak advnace needs to be high to improve fuel econmy, but the monent the car sees a return on the gas, the advance must be less than 32 degrees in just a normally aspirated LPG car. If its turboed, part throttle advnace can still be high, but it must be less than 28 degrees under low bost, less than 25 as it comes on the boost. And the air fuel mixture must not be rich or it will burn out the exhast valves.

The carb systems on a propane car are basically reverse Howitzers. If you run the stock advance system, you will lean backfire the lpg in the manifold, and blow the carbs off.

My suggestion is to talk with GRA, and ask them what ignition system you will have to use.

If I was in your situaton, I wouldn't worry about an engine management system at all, just a brilliant ignition system which you can easily replace. I'd look at avoiding a full soild state trigger system, because they are expensive, and must ensure that you can change the system easily. I'd look at just a reworked XF distributor, and then adding a remote MSD turbo ignition set up. If it breaks, just add a locked in 25 or 28 degree total advance XE Bosch Duraspark set-up with the vacum advance removed. The XF is a thin film ignition which should work with the long nose EL plugs, and the aftermarket set-ups from MSD or Holley should be able to be tailoured to suit.

You need to avoid the big bang, and you must have a fall back, safety first option.

In the old days of 11 second XE Alloy heads on propane with turbo, it was easy. You just made up a conservative ignition system with less than 25 total degrees advance, added a C9, a got set of gears in your BW diif, and that was it.

Today, you need the best advice, and the easiest, most adjustable system that won't break your engine. That won't give the sort of economy an XR6 Turbo gives, but it will avoid killing your engine.

 

[addo]

I'm seeing triple! Maybe I need "mediaction" (sic).

 

[Anonymous]

I want more in the future so it needs to support around 350rwkw later down the track.

Might as well go the biggest. The 510.

Claimed GRA CFM's are here;

http://www.gasresearch.com.au/

(click on 'technical support')

 

[aussie7mains]

300 rear wheel Kw , is about 350-370 kw at the flywheel depending on your transmission's ineffiecincy. to achieve that sort of power level (ABOUT 2.5 TIMES na ) you will need something like 2.5 bar boost which isnt in my view streetable, so that leaves us with either aiming for less power or going to a track only car. BTW where will you be able to use that sort of power level anyway.
So now we're talking about a track only car which makes life somewhat easier, as you could use a fixed advance system since were not intersted in off boost performance at all.
have you considered the Jaycar programmable ignition system that was available as a kit some years back. It had a key pad that was used for programming, seemed like a good thing. it could be used with electronic systems and looked like it was developed from the bosch system.
Otherwise give carefull consideration to EXACTLY what your aiming for, dont get caught up in the power claims hype, 200kw at the wheels is quite a bit and with a manual tranny could be achieved without too much difficulty. personally I dont like slushies because of there inefficincy and the fact that whilst the can be a good race tranny with a lose convertor they then become hopeless on the street, whereas a manual can do both reasonably well.
Ive got LPG and cng experience and my opinion is that whilst LPG is nice CNG is better if only you could get the stuff easily. The CNG engines Im associated with run 12.5 comp, 1 bar of boost, lambda 1.55 and comply with euro 4 emissions they run around 30 degrees advance at full load.
the Does that give some idea how good CNG is.
A7M

 

[Anonymous]

Welcome. Ramble below.

If you read this, you may need mediaction afterwards...




My old Pommy spec Cortina TF had a 2.3 V6, which was turboed with a propane carb with an IHI turbo from a Telstar Turbo/Mazda 626 Magnum. It was easy to plumb the system , easy to get it running, no issues with any vacum excpet the imported C4 transmission. I installed it on a 190000 km engine with messed up valve seals. I used the Impco CA 300 carb on a 2-bbl 35 Solex carb, and set it up using Impcos 173 Chevy V6 service bulletin. It was easy to do, as early Ford V6's have only two pipes per bank.


The problem with modern cars is the EFI and ignition managment systems are very highly developed, and any propane Turbo with a carb, even if its GRA's with a B2 converter, it will suffer from spark plug and fuel consumption problems. It will then requie a totally reworked ignition.

When you strip it down to a factory EL with LPG system, you loose the sequential injection, the infinately adjustable ignition is only suitable for the stock LPG set-up, and the transmission, if its automatic, still has to recieve the right information to operate. There was 20 years worth of Ford EFI developement, and evey system then has to be biffed away, since its not set up for a propane turbo.

For a street propane turbo set-up, its better to go back to stone age electronic ignition with a conventional boost retard, and then run the easiest to get and service carb mixer and vaporiser. Turbo, intercooling, propane set-up is the simple part, and anything should work.

On my Cortina, the factory US 2800 Capri electronic ignition had a boost retard on it, and it the stock ignition curve could be used off boost, and then when the IHI gave 6 psi, it could then retard the igniton system.

In your case, the later EL had returned to an electronic ignition system after the earlier ones lost there layshaft diriven ignition.

So you've got to reduce total spark lead to no more than 28 dgrees under 10 pounds of boost (25 degrees under more than that), but still have part throttle advance up to 35 to 40 degrees to maintain economy. Liegh from GRA said in 1996 that the untlimate worst thing with LPG is the part throttle back fire when you advance the ignition heaps. Under load, it goes great, with heaps orf torque and good power. Back off and get back on the gas, it backfires.

When you go into a corner on trailing throttle, an EFI car ramps up the advance to 40 to 48 degrees total as manifold pressure is high, and lean the engine off to 17 ot even 22:1 air fuel. Stand on the gas, and a petrol EFI will then change the advance to 35 to 40, and then richen the mixture to 15:1 to avoid any detonation or lean back fire. There is no petrol in the plenumb chamber, so no problems.

On an LPG car, the peak advnace needs to be high to improve fuel econmy, but the monent the car sees a return on the gas, the advance must be less than 32 degrees in just a normally aspirated LPG car. If its turboed, part throttle advnace can still be high, but it must be less than 28 degrees under low bost, less than 25 as it comes on the boost. And the air fuel mixture must not be rich or it will burn out the exhast valves.

The carb systems on a propane car are basically reverse Howitzers. If you run the stock advance system, you will lean backfire the lpg in the manifold, and blow the carbs off.

My suggestion is to talk with GRA, and ask them what ignition system you will have to use.

If I was in your situaton, I wouldn't worry about an engine management system at all, just a brilliant ignition system which you can easily replace. I'd look at avoiding a full soild state trigger system, because they are expensive, and must ensure that you can change the system easily. I'd look at just a reworked XF distributor, and then adding a remote MSD turbo ignition set up. If it breaks, just add a locked in 25 or 28 degree total advance XE Bosch Duraspark set-up with the vacum advance removed. The XF is a thin film ignition which should work with the long nose EL plugs, and the aftermarket set-ups from MSD or Holley should be able to be tailoured to suit.

You need to avoid the big bang, and you must have a fall back, safety first option.

In the old days of 11 second XE Alloy heads on propane with turbo, it was easy. You just made up a conservative ignition system with less than 25 total degrees advance, added a C9, a got set of gears in your BW diif, and that was it.

Today, you need the best advice, and the easiest, most adjustable system that won't break your engine. That won't give the sort of economy an XR6 Turbo gives, but it will avoid killing your engine.

Cheers for the awesome reply! Answered alot of my questions. I'll have to give GRA a call and get some prices to see if it will be worth it.

Might as well go the biggest. The 510.

Claimed GRA CFM's are here;

http://www.gasresearch.com.au/

(click on 'technical support')

Cheers for the link!

300 rear wheel Kw , is about 350-370 kw at the flywheel depending on your transmission's ineffiecincy. to achieve that sort of power level (ABOUT 2.5 TIMES na ) you will need something like 2.5 bar boost which isnt in my view streetable, so that leaves us with either aiming for less power or going to a track only car. BTW where will you be able to use that sort of power level anyway.
So now we're talking about a track only car which makes life somewhat easier, as you could use a fixed advance system since were not intersted in off boost performance at all.
have you considered the Jaycar programmable ignition system that was available as a kit some years back. It had a key pad that was used for programming, seemed like a good thing. it could be used with electronic systems and looked like it was developed from the bosch system.
Otherwise give carefull consideration to EXACTLY what your aiming for, dont get caught up in the power claims hype, 200kw at the wheels is quite a bit and with a manual tranny could be achieved without too much difficulty. personally I dont like slushies because of there inefficincy and the fact that whilst the can be a good race tranny with a lose convertor they then become hopeless on the street, whereas a manual can do both reasonably well.
Ive got LPG and cng experience and my opinion is that whilst LPG is nice CNG is better if only you could get the stuff easily. The CNG engines Im associated with run 12.5 comp, 1 bar of boost, lambda 1.55 and comply with euro 4 emissions they run around 30 degrees advance at full load.
the Does that give some idea how good CNG is.
A7M

There is no way i'm gonna need 2.5 BAR of boost to make 300rwkw with my setup it should make 300rwkw on not even half of that, ive even seen it done before with an auto (310rwkw on 15 pound) it was a mates car. Unless it's got something to do with gas needing more boost to make the same amount of power??

I don't want 200rwkw I've aimed for 300rwkw and i'm nearly there now as well.

Cheers!

 

[Anonymous]

with the right turbo you should get 300kwrw at 17 psi....... going on the advice i got for my setup........
dont quote me..

if the efficiency of the engine is improved along with adding the turbo,,
then its not as easy as multipliyng stock power output by psi or bar....



besides 300 kw wont get you up to speed quickly, torque will.
on a falcon six torque is good , and if the right turbo goes on you should have oodles of it.

remember rpm X nm = kw. 300 kw is easy on a gt40 -35 and should, have little lag...
good luck.

 

[Anonymous]

That's right, if the engine is made mor efficiant you can make the same power on less boost, my head is going to have extensive head porting, a cam, 3 inch cooler piping, along with a garrett gt35/40 with .7 comp and 1.06 exh so it should make around 300rwkw on less than 20psi pretty easily.

 

[Anonymous]

450kw rw is becoming more commen these days with that turbo on dohc motors......

youll need a hell of a c4...
and difffff

 

[Anonymous]

Ive got LPG and cng experience and my opinion is that whilst LPG is nice CNG is better if only you could get the stuff easily. The CNG engines Im associated with run 12.5 comp, 1 bar of boost, lambda 1.55 and comply with euro 4 emissions they run around 30 degrees advance at full load.
the Does that give some idea how good CNG is.
A7M




tell me more about cng.....

 

[73GreenMachine]

Some general questions: with stockish compression on LPG(9.0:1). Is it possible to run around 1 bar of boost. Another question: I am planning an LPG turbo setup of my own on my Cortina. I need to run it drawthrough as far as I know. Its been done before but I'm sorta worried about running LPG and hot air through a hot turbo and through an intercooler. I see potential for BIG flames which I dont want. Is it really safe? If not how do I run the LPG system?

 

[Anonymous]

Some general questions: with stockish compression on LPG(9.0:1). Is it possible to run around 1 bar of boost. Another question: I am planning an LPG turbo setup of my own on my Cortina. I need to run it drawthrough as far as I know. Its been done before but I'm sorta worried about running LPG and hot air through a hot turbo and through an intercooler. I see potential for BIG flames which I dont want. Is it really safe? If not how do I run the LPG system?

If were talking alloy head ex-EFI 250 crossflows....

1 bar on 9.0 compression sounds ok, just. Although I'd be a lot more comfortable running the stock 8.0:1

Forget about drawthrough intercooled LPG turbo right now. Very bad news.

Blowthrough is the way to go.

 

[73GreenMachine]

I would go blowthrough, I just want to find out how to do it on LPG.

 

[Anonymous]

1 bar ,9:1 comp,,

need very good ignition tuning and metering,, lpg turbo doesnt like detonation.

also remember that lpg makes more exhaust gas , so a bigger turbine /cover is needed on an lpg setup...

look up gas research , goto instalers , give rapid flow developments a call.

 

[73GreenMachine]

Nice! I'm having a look at some gas research stuff at the moment. The turbo I'm planning to use is off a Mazda RX7(this particular one is reasonably big) and from what I have been told rx7 turbos usually have a big exhaust housing.