All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

This relates to all small sixes
1966Mustang

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
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  • I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
  • The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
  • The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
  • Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
  • Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
  • Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
  • Let's have some fun with this!
As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...
docs.google.com

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:
  1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    1. Sniper ignition, etc
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
  5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
  6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
  7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
  8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
  9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
  10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci
Developing and Can-Do:
  1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
  2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
To be Developed or Figured on:
  1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
  2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
    1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
    2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
    3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
    4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
  3. Oil Pump
    1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
    2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
  4. Oil Pan
    1. Canton?
    2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock :D - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/
 
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gus91326 said:
I will say that if you mount the intercooler the way I did you will need to remove the hood latch and move to pins.
Click to expand...

@1966Mustang I am not sure if this will work for you. But, what I did was ordered a repro hood latch support. It is basically mounted at 3 mounting point. The top near the latch. The middle at bumper level. The bottom near the valance. I cut the bottom off the repro giving me two mounting points. This might give you enough room to mount the intercooler and keep the stock latch.

@gus91326 I hope car shows start up again. I want to make another trip down south to check out your car again. :)
 
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65coupei6 said:
@1966Mustang I am not sure if this will work for you. But, what I did was ordered a repro hood latch support. It is basically mounted at 3 mounting point. The top near the latch. The middle at bumper level. The bottom near the valance. I cut the bottom off the repro giving me two mounting points. This might give you enough room to mount the intercooler and keep the stock latch.

@gus91326 I hope car shows start up again. I want to make another trip down south to check out your car again. :)
Click to expand...
I'd like to keep my stock latch. I put a lot of work into zinc plating and parkerizing that hardware. :D This car has - to the best that I can determine all original/correct 'core' sheetmetal date stamps - except for the valances front and rear.
minus the trunk floor, trunk frame rails, rear support, wheel wells...
 
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pmuller9 said:
What dimensions would fit in front of the radiator?
Click to expand...
23"x10"+ x 3"thk might fit without too much hacking - meaning 23" would fit in the recess meant for the radiator in the front rad support sheetmetal - it's about 2-1/2" from the radiator to the hood latch support and... could go more than 10" tall.

I'm ok with some well placed holes in said sacred oem sheetmetal...

It's nose is against a big Ridgid tablesaw right now... I'll need to do some shuffling.
 
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The HyperSpark distributor has the Hall Effect sensor which is the correct match for the Sniper.

Can you make any of the following intercoolers fit?

Frostbite FB602B Frostbite Air to Air Intercooler

Frostbite Cooling is proud to introduce our line of universal intercoolers. We found the bar and plate design to be the most efficient, most durable design while still offering affordability. These are air to air intercoolers are available in several of the most common sizes. Also available in...
www.holley.com www.holley.com

Frostbite FB604B Frostbite Air to Air Intercooler

Frostbite Cooling is proud to introduce our line of universal intercoolers. We found the bar and plate design to be the most efficient, most durable design while still offering affordability. These are air to air intercoolers are available in several of the most common sizes. Also available in...
www.holley.com www.holley.com
www.treadstoneperformance.com

Intercoolers

Treadstone, Spearco Intercoolers! Treadstone Intercooler features superb quality highly efficient bar and plate construction. Our quality cast end tanks ensure evenly distributed airflow and low-pressure drop. Our intercoolers are pressure checked to 150psi and come with a 1-year warranty...
www.treadstoneperformance.com www.treadstoneperformance.com
 
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1966Mustang said:
Would that eliminate the need for the MSD 6AL?
Click to expand...
I meant to say Hyperspark distributor

No. You still need an ignition box
The Hyperspark distributor triggers the Sniper.
The computer on board the Sniper determines the ignition timing.
The Sniper then triggers the MSD 6AL or any other ignition box.
You can use the Sniper EFI Hyperspark CD ignition box in place of the MSD 6AL
The reliability of the MSD 6 boxes have become questionable.
Use with the HyperSpark Ignition Coil – P/N 556-152
 
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wsa111 said:
Perry, if you are going the supercharged route, you need the MSD boost retard feature.
Click to expand...
Perry
You need the Holley Super Sniper in place of the Sniper you have listed.
Sorry I didn't catch that sooner.
The Super Sniper has a 2.5 BAR MAP sensor for 21 lbs of boost and has timing control for boosted applications.
 
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Would the MSD 6EFI Box work also?

You should be able to use any Ford TFi coil. @pmuller9 Is this correct?

You will also need a PCV Valve from a bigger engine. Or the MEWagner adjustable valve. If not you might be chasing down gremlins.

Don't forget a shielded cable for the tach signal from the Sniper and maybe add a ferrite mangnet.
 
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65coupei6 said:
Would the MSD 6EFI Box work also?

You should be able to use any Ford TFi coil. @pmuller9 Is this correct?
Click to expand...
The MSD 6EFI only delivers 95 Millijoules of energy to the primary of the ignition coil.
In comparison the MSD 6A and the Sniper EFI Hyperspark CD ignition box deliver 135 Millijoules of energy.
In a forced induction engine you need more spark energy

Any genuine Ford TFI coil is good.

Just as a side note.
The spark energy advertised for many of the CD boxes is misleading. I know, big surprise.
It is the capacitor in the ignition box that is charged to the energy level.
The actual energy to the spark plug depends on how much of the energy transfers through the ignition coil.
On a capacitive discharge it is less than half.
The "E" core coils like the Ford TFI or the HyperSpark ignition coil pass the most energy. The "I" core canister coils pass the least.

Where a capacitive discharge shines is that it produces much more spark current that an inductive discharge system
 
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Holley Sniper EFI 556-152 Sniper EFI HyperSpark Ignition Coil

Do you need to upgrade your ignition system due to a recent Sniper EFI installation, but have no idea which option is best? Introducing HyperSpark Ignition, from Sniper EFI. The complete system consists of an ignition coil, CD ignition box, billet distributor with hall effect crank signal...
www.holley.com www.holley.com
Part# 556-152

I'll run this by holley tech support to see if there's anything else.
 
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1966Mustang said:

Holley Sniper EFI 556-152 Sniper EFI HyperSpark Ignition Coil

Do you need to upgrade your ignition system due to a recent Sniper EFI installation, but have no idea which option is best? Introducing HyperSpark Ignition, from Sniper EFI. The complete system consists of an ignition coil, CD ignition box, billet distributor with hall effect crank signal...
www.holley.com www.holley.com
Part# 556-152

I'll run this by holley tech support to see if there's anything else.
Click to expand...
I believe you also need the Holley Super Sniper to run up to 20 lbs of boost and also have timing control with boost.
The master kit you listed has the basic Holley Sniper.
 
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Ok, thinking about Camshafts today - I did chat with Comp Cams and they had a lot of questions I didn't have data for.

Evidently this was not enough:
Solid-Lifter Cam lobe duration in the 230 degree range @ .050" lobe lift and a wide LSA, drivable below 3500.

They wanted all sorts of personally identifiable information! Anyway, I answered what I could and then they said - Call back, ask for Dallas...

I haven't called Dallas yet.

Well this would be pretty cool... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camless_piston_engine
 
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They should want things like head flow at several valve lift points for both the intake and exhaust ports and power band rpm and the fact that it is being turbocharged.
Engine bore and stroke and maybe compression ratio.

Don't worry about drivability below 3500. Not their problem.
You want power from 3500 to 7000 rpm.
I'm expecting a .050" intake duration around 236 to 238 degrees with a 114 degree LSA.
The exhaust duration may be around 4 degrees less.
 
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pmuller9 said:
BOVs are always separate and install near the throttle body.

Internal wastegates are usually not adjustable.
Sometimes there is a selection of canisters with different spring rates for different boost levels.

In order to adjust a canister above it's rated spring or boost level you have to resort to leaking off the control pressure to the canister.
If for some reason you lose that control pressure you lose the boost control and can do a lot of engine damage with overboost.

External wastegates provide adjustable boost control in a much safer fashion.
Click to expand...
1966Mustang said:
They do have internal WG/BOV models - seeing if they have one to the specs above
Click to expand...
This may be too late or may not apply for expense or specific application reasons, but the above response is incorrect.

OEMs have been using blow off valves integral to the compressor housing for around 2 decades and Borg Warner EFR series for around a decade. Arguments have been made the blow off valve should be on the hotside of the intercooler, closer to the turbo.

Most internal gate actuators are adjustable via preload. Spring changing is an option on higher end aftermarket actuators. The aftermarket has come out with dual port, adjustable internal gate actuators. There are adjustable dual port internal gate actuators available specifically for the BW EFR line as well as others.

External gates do not provide adjustable boost control any differently than a comparable internal gate.
 
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