All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

[1966Mustang]

• I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
• The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
• The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
• Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
• Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
• Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
• Let's have some fun with this!

As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...

docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:

1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
   1. Sniper ignition, etc
2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
   1. SI
   2. Manley
4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci

Developing and Can-Do:

1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/

To be Developed or Figured on:

1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
   1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
   2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
   3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
   4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
3. Oil Pump
   1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
   2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
4. Oil Pan
   1. Canton?
   2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/

 

[bubba22349]

Isn't one of the head gasket bolt holes smaller (closer tolerance) on each end (and in a straight or diagonal line) to help to align the head gasket straight or acting as an alignment dowl?

 

[65coupei6]

Damn. I didn't know how expensive a honing plate could be. $956!

Ford 200 Honing Plate; Aluminum [FO-200-6-R-AL-T] : HoningPlates.com by BHJ Products , Honing Plates and Cylinder Head Torque Plates

HoningPlates.com by BHJ Products Ford 200 Honing Plate; Aluminum [FO-200-6-R-AL-T] - Fits Ford 200 Gen. III Inline 6-Cylinder 3.825 Bore In Plate R Model plate for use with stock-length head bolts, or studs Includes necessary hardware, wood storage box and instruction sheet Aluminum...

honingplates.com

This place also makes plates and rings: http://www.headgasket.com/products.html

One last option: https://ccaracing.com/aluminum-torque-plates/

 

[1966Mustang]

Damn. I didn't know how expensive a honing plate could be. $956!

Yeah - I said the same thing too... I bet we could make a more expensive one!

Added more meat to ends and, set bore distances to 4.08... rounded corners



going to 3d print a section to see how it fits

 

[drag-200stang]

That looks better Perry ..I will try to check some measurements this weekend..Wife said that if I do not make some better progress on the race car she's cutting funding. ''smiley face inserted here''
Another possibly is ...One turbo member said he had a custom gasket made and they had it on file..Maybe you could get them to send you the file, it would help.
Bubba, yes the passenger side front and rear holes are smaller for alignment.. But some of the late late model heads do not have the smaller holes in the head , they are larger , maybe they use some temp. guide sleeve.

 

[1966Mustang]

updated to reflect 4.08 spacing and more meat. not final version.

 

[CNC-Dude]

They can be pricey!

 

[drag-200stang]

I was able check some numbers, at this point I would make the bolt holes .490'' that is the size of most of the bolt holes in the gasket and the Iron head...You do not want the hole bigger because you want the plate to crush the gasket and pull on the deck as the head would. It is important. ..I did not get too far but I was able to verify that the 11 bolts are centered side to side on the center line of the bores and I come up with 3.360 center to center or 1.680 to center line of bores... How I came up with it was to measure inside edge to inside edge, +the diameter of one bolt hole = distance center to center..This was on the block I will check the head also and work on the three odd bolts.

 

[1966Mustang]

I was able check some numbers, at this point I would make the bolt holes .490'' that is the size of most of the bolt holes in the gasket and the Iron head...You do not want the hole bigger because you want the plate to crush the gasket and pull on the deck as the head would. It is important. ..I did not get too far but I was able to verify that the 11 bolts are centered side to side on the center line of the bores and I come up with 3.360 center to center or 1.680 to center line of bores... How I came up with it was to measure inside edge to inside edge, +the diameter of one bolt hole = distance center to center..This was on the block I will check the head also and work on the three odd bolts.

I did not realize the gasket gets crushed/used when honing with a plate - I suppose it makes sense though.

Made changes based on your work - thanks - I'm finding that this ability to change a value for a dimension in one place and have it update all linked entities is a great thing about parametric modeling.

PDF/DXF/SVG Attached, not final - If you get a minute (I appreciate everyone's multiple hours/minutes spent on this whole shebang of a thread) - Check the 3 'outlier' end holes compared to the attached PDF.

Front:

Rear:

 

[CNC-Dude]

Yeah, a gasket is sacrificed when using a torque plate. Most shops have a gasket they use over and over so it's not like a new is used everytime.

 

[CNC-Dude]

I did not realize the gasket gets crushed/used when honing with a plate - I suppose it makes sense though.

Made changes based on your work - thanks - I'm finding that this ability to change a value for a dimension in one place and have it update all linked entities is a great thing about parametric modeling.

PDF/DXF/SVG Attached, not final - If you get a minute (I appreciate everyone's multiple hours/minutes spent on this whole shebang of a thread) - Check the 3 'outlier' end holes compared to the attached PDF.

Front:
View attachment 5620
Rear:
View attachment 5621

View attachment 5619

Something to mention, the width of the plate really doesn't need to extend all the way over to cover the pushrod area. One reason is that extra coverage doesn't contribute to distorting to cylinders, and it just adds extra unnecessary material costs. The other reason, is it adds unnecessary material costs because the material is only available in even widths past 6'', so an 8" wide plate will actually have to be used and machined down to conform to the width it is currently drawn, which is close to another $100 more than the same piece in a 6" width, not to mention cutting an 1-1/2" off of an 8" wide piece of material which is more time and labor. Also, the drawing isn't quite fully defined yet because it is missing dimensions from either the centerline of the front and rear cylinders relative to the front/rear edge of the plate as well as the side of the plate relative to the cylinder centerline.

 

[1966Mustang]

Something to mention, the width of the plate really doesn't need to extend all the way over to cover the pushrod area. One reason is that extra coverage doesn't contribute to distorting to cylinders, and it just adds extra unnecessary material costs. The other reason, is it adds unnecessary material costs because the material is only available in even widths past 6'', so an 8" wide plate will actually have to be used and machined down to conform to the width it is currently drawn, which is close to another $100 more than the same piece in a 6" width, not to mention cutting an 1-1/2" off of an 8" wide piece of material which is more time and labor. Also, the drawing isn't quite fully defined yet because it is missing dimensions from either the centerline of the front and rear cylinders relative to the front/rear edge of the plate as well as the side of the plate relative to the cylinder centerline.

Narrowed to 5.5" CL of bores at 2.75"

 

[1966Mustang]

Found this thread about BHJ balancers :

Did this go anywhere?

SFI Approved Harmonic Balancer

I've done a search and didn't find anything conclusive about a SFI balancer for the 300 so I need help. Is there a SFI balancer available either from another engine such as the small block V8 that will fit a 300 or one made specifically for the 300. Thanks

fordsix.com

BHJ on the otherhand bends over backwards to accomodate the inline community and has been involved and instrumental in offering (3) balancers for the Chevy crowd when no one else would and is about to release one for the Chrysler Hemi 6 engine in Oz. So hands down I would contact BHJ for your needs

Also Damper Doctor in AZ was listed as a resource in the CI Archive... https://www.damperdoctor.com/

 

[1966Mustang]

Just wondering... where do people get the official/actual engineering drawings/prints for engines? I imagine they get the from the manufacturer (Ford etc), or is there some other service that handles that? Or do they just measure production parts...

Maybe I should start a laser scanning service in this area...

 

[65coupei6]

Mike used to use Damper Doctor. They do some quality work. I think they stopped doing high performance stuff a while back. I know they still do rebuilds because I used them for mine.

 

[drag-200stang]

I agree 6'' wide x26.480 is what I am thinking...center line to pass edge 2.525..center line to lifter side, driver side..3.475 and that will cover the whole gasket, that will leave .600 from between the edge of the .490 hole and the edge of the plate on pass side if that is not enough for strength we could shift it over about .100 and still cover most of the important part of the lifter side gasket. That would be best in my mind...On length I came up with 3.040 from center of bore on each end =26.480
On the pass front bolt hole, measuring from the bore center line toward the front I get 2.040 to bolt cl...from that bolt cl to the length wise bore cl 1.800
Driver front bolt hole, measuring from the bore cl toward the front I get 1.911 to bolt cl ...from that bolt cl to length wise bore cl I get 1.860
Driver side rear bolt hole, measuring from bore cl toward the rear to the bolt cl I get 1.845...from that bolt cl to length wise bore cl I get 1.880..Those 3 odd bolt holes are very hard to measure with what I have, no guarantee, informational purpose only.
Perry try this out on your program and do they make sense to you?
CNC do you think that this will be strong enough on the pas. side with what I layed out? I would like to see most of the driver side gasket covered and we are still talking about 2'' thick stock.

 

[bubba22349]

X2 I don't currently have any blocks or heads to measure. But I don't see why if you have 6 inch wide material to even bother spending the labor time in cutting off the .500 of material to 5.5 inch. If the plate is set up to width position of the head gasket on driver side or to the heads machined deck surface width as bolted on that should be enough to get the correct clamping action on that side of the cylinders. The extra material width that's left like drag-200stang said could than be shifted over to the passenger side / lifter side and also get the required clamping pressure fully on 360 degrees of the cylinders. It might not really matter as much on that side but it won't hurt anything either that's just my.02, outher wise it looks like there is a very good plan shaping up for the hone plate design.

 

[bubba22349]

X3 On the Damper Dotors company they were just rebuilding the stock dampers, not suitable for the level of this performance build up.

 

[drag-200stang]

I agree 6'' wide x26.480 is what I am thinking...center line to pass edge 2.525..center line to lifter side, driver side..3.475 and that will cover the whole gasket, that will leave .600 from between the edge of the .490 hole and the edge of the plate on pass side if that is not enough for strength we could shift it over about .100 and still cover most of the important part of the lifter side gasket. That would be best in my mind...On length I came up with 3.040 from center of bore on each end =26.480
On the pass front bolt hole, measuring from the bore center line toward the front I get 2.040 to bolt cl...from that bolt cl to the length wise bore cl 1.800
Driver front bolt hole, measuring from the bore cl toward the front I get 1.911 to bolt cl ...from that bolt cl to length wise bore cl I get 1.860
Driver side rear bolt hole, measuring from bore cl toward the rear to the bolt cl I get 1.845...from that bolt cl to length wise bore cl I get 1.880..Those 3 odd bolt holes are very hard to measure with what I have, no guarantee, informational purpose only.
Perry try this out on your program and do they make sense to you?
CNC do you think that this will be strong enough on the pas. side with what I layed out? I would like to see most of the driver side gasket covered and we are still talking about 2'' thick stock.

Note the changes above..
I am thinking that a bore of 3.760 would cover any over bore needed...The block side should not have a large radius taper bevel and not at all larger than the gasket at 3.810 ,on the top side it could be beveled like the top of your block .
On the bolt holes, the iron block has no bevel and I see no need to get crazy there just break the edge you can not put it back on and more could be done if needed.
less corner rounding would save time money...Take a look at the cca racing plate pic.

 

[CNC-Dude]

You typically make the bores in the plate .090" bigger than the largest bore size of the engine that will be using it. Since the 200 and 250 seems to be the most common engines on here being built, and are the same bore size of 3.680", then the largest bore size may be .060" or 3.740". Then that will make the bores in the plate work out to be approx. 3.830". So drag-200stang, I can back it down to your recommended 3.810" and call it good!

 

[drag-200stang]

You typically make the bores in the plate .090" bigger than the largest bore size of the engine that will be using it. Since the 200 and 250 seems to be the most common engines on here being built, and are the same bore size of 3.680", then the largest bore size may be .060" or 3.740". Then that will make the bores in the plate work out to be approx. 3.830". So drag-200stang, I can back it down to your recommended 3.810" and call it good!

I under stand..I was trying to get more meat between the bores 4.080 - 3.810 leaves .270.. what ever you think.