All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

This relates to all small sixes

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
  • I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
  • The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
  • The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
  • Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
  • Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
  • Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
  • Let's have some fun with this!
As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...

Mostly Decided:
  1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    1. Sniper ignition, etc
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
  5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
  6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
  7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
  8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
  9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
  10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci
Developing and Can-Do:
  1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
  2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
To be Developed or Figured on:
  1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
  2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
    1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
    2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
    3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
    4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
  3. Oil Pump
    1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
    2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
  4. Oil Pan
    1. Canton?
    2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.

https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock :D - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/
 
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1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
Another tip from CCA/Protohawk Mike Gallo -

"Make sure to look into Larry Meaux's Pipemax program for the header design. It's indispensable for harmonics tuning."

Any of you guys heard of/run this?

 

drag-200stang

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I was not sure what was happening with CCA and what was discuss about ..That is why I asked what he said and thought that you would post the conversation . like the comp guy..Some things still need tweaking..Hopefully he has or can get the fords real numbers and can let us know if we are off.
 

pmuller9

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I did a drawing for a Buick straight 8 block deck.
Afterward we set up a thin plate in the mill and machined all the holes just so I could verify them on the block.
I had to adjust one hole .005" to make the plate fit on the block so there was wiggle room on all holes.
 
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CNC-Dude

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You also have to work around the factory tolerances as well. The bolt holes for instance can have a much more looser plus/minus allowance than the cylinder bores or dowel pin locations for instance. I know from working with GM blueprints that bolt holes can have +/- .015" allowable variance, so often the bolt holes in the mating parts like heads or timing covers, etc...are much more oversized to allow for that. Especially when you're trying to use 21st century machining practices and precision on engines that were not made using to same precision or techniques.
 
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CNC-Dude

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I'll check when I get home. I've got both a Chevy 6 and Ford 6 blueprint and cylinder heads for each. I'll see how they compare to the blueprint call out.
 

CNC-Dude

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Update on bolt hole sizes in the cylinder head(s).

Chevy 6 cylinder head(referenced from GM blueprints):
Head bolt size---1/2" x 13
Blueprint call out for hole sizes----17/32"(.531) +.010"/-.005", or .541" to .526"
Measured hole sizes-----.540" to .545", or .045" larger than the bolt.

Ford 240/300 cylinder head(referenced from Ford classified blueprints):
Head bolt size----7/16" x 14
Blueprint call out for hole sizes----.484" +.015"/-.014", the bolt hole is already .047" larger than the bolt plus the allowable +/- tolerance beyond that. So on the high side the bolt hole can be as large as .062" larger than the bolt.
Measured hole sizes----.470" to .475"

Ford Small 6 cylinder head, no blueprint:
Head bolt size-----7/16" x 14
Measured bolt hole sizes------.450" to .485", or up to .048" larger than the bolt.
 

pmuller9

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Thanks for taking the time to check.
It looks like the bolt hole size in the head is plenty large enough that if you went by measured specs without relying on actual Ford blue print specs for the torque plate and used the large stock head hole size in the plate it would be good to use on anybody's block?
 

bubba22349

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The Ford US 200 is 29.5 inches long. Not sure if there is anything in this simple Ford blueprint that's useful for the US 200 blocks since the 188 & 221 are a little taller engines, I found it in an old post made by Xctesy

xctasy:ejns1en7 said:
The dimensions of an Australian Ford engines - 188/221ci.

188%20221%20%20page%20enlarged_zpsfombmvin.jpeg
 

CNC-Dude

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I'm going to CMM a head gasket and compare the dimensions to the drawing and see. Gasket companies have close working relationships with all the auto brands out there and that's where they get their data to be able to make replacement parts. And some of those companies made the original parts for them as well, so there had to be communication between them to make sure there weren't fitment issues that could make both the carmaker or parts maker look bad.
 

chad

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1) no use from a 170 or 240 crank?
I guess the 240 too long but my eyes popped
when I saw the counter weights on my bronk crank...
8^ 0
2) port FI not doable too (thread those bosses at each intake runner
w/lower presser injectors, use hall effect HB & TFI)?
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
Drag my cam specs are: Adv Dur 265 int 269 exh, Dur @ 0.050 238 int 242 exh, 113 LS and .570/.582 lift If you need more I'll dig up the cam card.
HI fast64ranchero, just curious what your piston and Rod assembly weight ended up at, what piston compression height is with the 1JZ Rod, and how much the piston top to block deck measured? So do you think that the crank could be offset ground any if cam clearance isn't a problem? Thank you
Bubba, I'll have to dig up my balance sheet to figure out weight, but the crank could easily be offset ground, that was an option I was given and turned down as I do not want the side load issue I had with my 4.125 stroke 250 I built. Piston specs are as follows bore 3.710, comp height 1.3, pin dia .866 piston dish -.050 7cc's rings 1.5/1.5/3.0 but remember the piston should have been 1.5mm/1.2mm/3.0mm for a standard ring
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
Came across the CI Tech article about cometic head gaskets, so I inquired with Cometic what can be done in that department.
I talked with Cometic about a gasket, the deal is they would have to charge for the design process, but you would own the rights to all gaskets manufactured from that point on, cost would be around $6,000 for the first gasket. I thought about it, but did not follow through.
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
My motor is still sitting on my engine stand, my plan was to put it in my 65 Fast Back, but I'd sell it for what I have in it. I have been kicking around the idea of building a 408 for it anyway.
 

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
I talked with Cometic about a gasket, the deal is they would have to charge for the design process, but you would own the rights to all gaskets manufactured from that point on, cost would be around $6,000 for the first gasket. I thought about it, but did not follow through.
Also contacted bestgasket.com , see what they say...
 
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