Time to ask for help. Timing and tuning problems.

[chad]

Break Time !
Glad U have the awarness.
We're here later too…
You'll never be starting "at the begining" tho.
It will B a fine rig shortly - when completed!
Almost there!

 

[ssm200]

I finally went back to work on the car today and things are looking a lot better. I went through all the tuning procedures and made many recommended adjustments. I bought a dial indicator and degree wheel, though i haven't gotten that far yet. It's running good and has steady acceleration through the rev range. It does hesitate a tad right off idle, but i'm pretty sure i can work that out pretty easily with a little more time tuning. I'll be pulling the valve cover next to shim the rocker assembly and check the cam timing. I am planning on fixing the cam timing if it is messed up and i have a couple questions that i am having trouble finding answers to.

I understand how to find TDC with a piston stop and the degree wheel. I understand how to use the dial indicator to find the top of the lobe center of the first intake valve. I don't know what to compare the results to. Should the intake valve be fully open at a standard point before/after TDC or am i missing critical information about my cam?

Also, What parts could i possibly need for degreeing in the cam? And, what are my odds of success degreeing in this cam without removing the radiator? It seems like it will be a good idea to remove the fan, but i think i can get the rest without taking the radiator out. or is this more of a pain in the rear than just pulling the radiator?

Thanks for all the help and for keeping me positive. It's easy to give up when it seems like it's all up hill.

 

[RichCreations]

if you have to do anything to the cam timing, removing the timing cover requires removing the balancer, and at least on mine, the radiator will be in the way of the puller...

 

[chad]

Yes, radiator, fan, belts. Need to rotate a breaker bar thru that area, turn the engine thru ~ 240*...
and no removal of cam, just spinning of the timing set to reach advance/retard needed.
You may need to fully remove the set to use an "off set key" or as many here do machine
key ways (one is currently present, additional for advancing) into the crank (smaller) sprocket.

But 1st is just "a check" - she may B dead on as far as the info I have.
That's after yer happy U went as far as U could go w/the tip top tuning and there's still some problems.

You may already know all this so, I'd appreciate it if you keep in touch as you go so I can learn something
8- )
:thanks:

 

[bubba22349]

I finally went back to work on the car today and things are looking a lot better. I went through all the tuning procedures and made many recommended adjustments. I bought a dial indicator and degree wheel, though i haven't gotten that far yet. It's running good and has steady acceleration through the rev range. It does hesitate a tad right off idle, but i'm pretty sure i can work that out pretty easily with a little more time tuning. I'll be pulling the valve cover next to shim the rocker assembly and check the cam timing. I am planning on fixing the cam timing if it is messed up and i have a couple questions that i am having trouble finding answers to.

1. As I mentioned to you in my last post adjusting the Accelerator pump shot timing and or its duration should take care of your hesitation. If you can post a picture of your acc. Pump linkage settings that you have right now and with a detailed description of how the car is acting then should be able to guide you in which way to adjust it. It should be fairly easy and quick to dial that pump shot in.

I understand how to find TDC with a piston stop and the degree wheel. I understand how to use the dial indicator to find the top of the lobe center of the first intake valve. I don't know what to compare the results to. Should the intake valve be fully open at a standard point before/after TDC or am i missing critical information about my cam?

2. You will need to have your cam card or at least the cams brand name and its number to look up its specs, then we can go from there.

Also, What parts could i possibly need for degreeing in the cam? And, what are my odds of success degreeing in this cam without removing the radiator? It seems like it will be a good idea to remove the fan, but i think i can get the rest without taking the radiator out. or is this more of a pain in the rear than just pulling the radiator?

3. Besides the degree wheel and dial indicator, all you need is a homemade timing pointer to read the degrees (wire coat hanger or better), and some basic hand tools i.e. Socket and ratchet to turn the engines crankshaft. Turning the engine in one direction to be most accurate for your readings unless the timing chain is near new condistion. For the purposes of just checking were the cam timing is set you probally don't need to pull the radiator however when and if you want to set it to a different cam position you will need too.

Thanks for all the help and for keeping me positive. It's easy to give up when it seems like it's all up hill.

I borrowed this :thanks: excellent graft of the cam timing degrees to crankshaft relationship picture from Puller9 (in his recent post on the 300 forum) with his explanation the cam position (degreeing) this explains it all very well. You would only need change the cam specifics to suit a stock 200 / 250 six or your specific cam grind.

"When the cam is "Degreed in" the object is to get intake lobe center as close as possible to the intake lobe center line specified by the cam manufacturer.
Straight up does mean the cam intake center is at the Lobe Separation angle ATDC but not at TDC as you stated.
The LSA is in camshaft degrees while the rest of the points are in crankshaft degrees.
A picture always helps.

Most of the time the cam is specified to be installed advanced which caters to low end torque.
If a user wants to move the torque curve up to help make a little more HP then the cam can be retarded a few degrees from the specified position.
The stock Ford 300 cam is installed 4 degrees retarded from the straight up position.
Stock LSA is 110* and the ICL is 114* ATDC

While advancing or retarding a cam does indeed change DCR, the main reason for cam positioning is to get the desired power response and less concern for the resulting DCR.
The optimal DCR should be acquired by adjusting the Static compression ratio if possible.

Good planning includes all of it and results in the following question:
What cam specs do I need to get the power band I want and allow a certain static compression ratio at the same time? better known as "Having one's cake and eating it too"
The biggest challenge is wanting a lot of low end torque combined with wanting a relatively high static compression ratio." By Puller9

Good luck

 

[ssm200]

Sorry it's taken me a bit to make any progress. I have the valve cover off and rocker assembly removed. TDC on the crank pulley is dead on, confirmed using a degree wheel and a piston stop. I hollowed out an old spark plug and ran a big bolt through and welded it in place. Thanks for the tip, that worked perfectly. Next i used the dial indicator i got to find that max lift of the first intake valve comes in at 107.5*. I don't have the spec sheet on the cam, can't seem to find it online. I did, however find on the CI tech page that it should be 110*. It seems like 2.5* is significant, advice would be greatly appreciated. If i end up pulling the timing cover, i will certainly be putting a better cam in.

I also plan on shimming the rocker assembly as described. The washers i got are pretty thick, probably 1/16". Is this too much? There wasn't a great selection of washers fitting my requirements. I really think this will help the uneven compression.

Thanks,

Steve

 

[chad]

Clifford should beable 2 give U the specs on yer cam if interested, eventho U bought it frm CI (in fact that could help ID it - give 'e a phone call). Wait on IDing the cam B4 getting a new one. After degreeing U may not need one.

 

[bubba22349]

Sorry it's taken me a bit to make any progress. I have the valve cover off and rocker assembly removed. TDC on the crank pulley is dead on, confirmed using a degree wheel and a piston stop. I hollowed out an old spark plug and ran a big bolt through and welded it in place. Thanks for the tip, that worked perfectly. Next i used the dial indicator i got to find that max lift of the first intake valve comes in at 107.5*. I don't have the spec sheet on the cam, can't seem to find it online. I did, however find on the CI tech page that it should be 110*. It seems like 2.5* is significant, advice would be greatly appreciated. If i end up pulling the timing cover, i will certainly be putting a better cam in.

I also plan on shimming the rocker assembly as described. The washers i got are pretty thick, probably 1/16". Is this too much? There wasn't a great selection of washers fitting my requirements. I really think this will help the uneven compression.

Thanks,

Steve

1. That's great that you now know TDC is right.

2. The specs for a Clifford 264 Cam are suppose to be "Advertised Intake Duration 264 / 264 advertised exhaust dur., intake duration at .050 208 / 208 exhaust dur. at .050, intake valve lift .444 / .444 exhaust valve lift, 110 degree Camshaft LSA 2000 RPM - 4500 RPM"

3. So at 107.5 Cam intake CL would put your cam at 2.5 degrees advanced that's not too bad and could be all right there, but I don't really know what spec Clifford recommends on their Camshaft install CL. If someone on the site knows that would be a great help otherwise you may need to call Clifford and see if they will tell you what the recommended install specs are for your cam.

4. The 1/16 washer should be about perfect roughly they will measure .0625 that should be close enough to the .060 to see if it improves the cranking compression. Unless you want to try and file them down so they all match at .060. Good luck

 

[ssm200]

This is from Larry at Clifford Performance:


Lift Intake 444 exhaust 444
Duration 264 intake 264 exhaust
Open 22 Intake close 62 exhaust
close 62 intake close 22 exhaust
Exhaust opend 33 bdc intake opens -7
Exhaust closes -7 Intake 33
110 lobe centers.

Thank you

Larry 6=8

This doesn't tell me what the cam should be dialed in at. He said that i should just line up the dots on the timing gears...I know that is what i did, but that put me at 107.5 degree lobe centers. Should i leave the cam alone until i rebuild the entire motor in a few years or is this worth the trouble of correcting now? also, does anyone know where i can get a timing set that will make it easier to make a small adjustment like this? I know i've seen crank sprockets with multiple slots for the woodruff key.

After i hear a few opinions, i'll probably be putting it back together with the washers under the rocker stands and continue testing and tuning.

 

[MustangSix]

My .02....

I'd relook the lifter preload again. On a stock engine the non-adjustable rockers are designed to preload the lifters by .050 to .070", approximately. Taking another .050 out of the head without shortening the pushrod might put you very close to max preload on those lifters. It might not even be completely apparent on a compression test since you'll get the effect of the full oil pressure when running. Rocker shims are the easiest way to fix it. You can test by just temporarily sticking some fender washers under the stands.

Also, I tried to find it in your posts, but didn't see if the vacuum was disconnected when timing? I would also try operating the engine without vacuum advance for now just to remove one operating variable. Just let the centrifugal handle the advance. Later, when you get it running, plug the vacuum back in.

Frustrating, I know, but all these things are solvable. Good luck.

 

[cr_bobcat]

Maybe I missed something. Did you get a Clifford cam through CI, or was it a Clay Smith? I didn't realize that CI sold any Clifford components.

 

[bubba22349]

This is from Larry at Clifford Performance:


Lift Intake 444 exhaust 444
Duration 264 intake 264 exhaust
Open 22 Intake close 62 exhaust
close 62 intake close 22 exhaust
Exhaust opend 33 bdc intake opens -7
Exhaust closes -7 Intake 33
110 lobe centers.

Thank you

Larry 6=8

This doesn't tell me what the cam should be dialed in at. He said that i should just line up the dots on the timing gears...I know that is what i did, but that put me at 107.5 degree lobe centers. Should i leave the cam alone until i rebuild the entire motor in a few years or is this worth the trouble of correcting now? also, does anyone know where i can get a timing set that will make it easier to make a small adjustment like this? I know i've seen crank sprockets with multiple slots for the woodruff key.

After i hear a few opinions, i'll probably be putting it back together with the washers under the rocker stands and continue testing and tuning.

Yes it dose kind of tell you that the cam should be set straight up, so by that your 2.5 dregrees off and advanced. The cam being advanced will give you some more bottom end torque at an expense of some of your top end power, it also effects the engine vacuum too. So how do like the way your car performs now at speed? What is the goals you had for it? I used to really like how my 77 250 Maverick performed over all, except for at speed it hit a wall at 74 MPH and stopped pulling not the best when your were trying to quickly to pass someone on a two lane. Check at the bottom of the forum The for sale parts "Does 10's" has a list of the parts avable now I think there some of the 200 adjustable double roller chain sets. In the small six parts for sale DannyG also had some 200 double roller sets for sale too. The other way to do it is with an off set cam bushing or crank key 2 degrees would put it very close. Good luck

 

[chad]

U gettin some hell of experience brother! Good on ya mate! Hope U stay cool so U absorbe it all…


"...continue testing and tuning…"
If yer gunna rebuild (not sure Y, & don't hafta, it's ur vehicle!) Y not keep practicin on this one? That learning/knowledge is gunna make a dyn-o-mite next build, no?

"...an off set cam bushing or crank key 2 degrees would put very close…"
"there's more than 1 way to skin a cat" use of a woodruff 'offset' key…they come in different degrees. (I wanna have more keyways cut in my sprocket too but my assembler uses off set key method). The extra slots R put in by the machinist when ordering yer parts and machinin the engine (often). Just take it to a local guy 2 have done. If U wanna keep goin U could put yer timing set at 'dot to dot' & degree it. You'd find 'inacuracies" w/that cam U have (not ground the way the OEM was - thank the gods - it's ground better!) that's Y the degreeing.

If he wound up at 107.5* doesn't that mean he should advance 2.5* on the TS to get to what's on the card (110LC)?
Now he's got the "card" (by phone to Larry) can some 1 direct him to some instructions (I wanna look over his shoulder so I C it again)?
There's echo's on-line vid (but he's so good at it he goes kinda fast) any book or written pathway thru this?

 

[ssm200]

Maybe I missed something. Did you get a Clifford cam through CI, or was it a Clay Smith? I didn't realize that CI sold any Clifford components.

I know how that was confusing. I bought a clifford cam from cliffordperformance.com like 9 years ago. But i found a list of cam profiles on the classic inlines tech pages. That is where i found the info on the cam.

I think i will leave the cam for now. If 2.5* is mechanically acceptable, i'd rather not lose any of the bottom end that i have by retarding the cam timing to spec. I liked how it ran when it ran good and i will get back there very shortly.

...

I'd relook the lifter preload again. On a stock engine the non-adjustable rockers are designed to preload the lifters by .050 to .070", approximately. Taking another .050 out of the head without shortening the pushrod might put you very close to max preload on those lifters. It might not even be completely apparent on a compression test since you'll get the effect of the full oil pressure when running. Rocker shims are the easiest way to fix it. You can test by just temporarily sticking some fender washers under the stands.

Also, I tried to find it in your posts, but didn't see if the vacuum was disconnected when timing? I would also try operating the engine without vacuum advance for now just to remove one operating variable. Just let the centrifugal handle the advance. Later, when you get it running, plug the vacuum back in.

Frustrating, I know, but all these things are solvable. Good luck.

Is there a way to check the lifter preload? Is it just a matter of making sure there is pressure on the valves after shimming the rocker stands? I am really optimistic about shimming the rocker assembly.

I'll probably put it back together this weekend and get back to driving and tuning. Wish it was in the cards to put the wideband O2 in right now. That would make tuning easier. My goal right now is to get it running the best i can before the end of the month. The local performance shop has a Dyno day coming up that i want to participate in. $50 for two pulls. It will be my first one. Maybe i'll have them weld in the bung for the O2 while it's there.

I made all timing adjustments with the vacuum disconnected. I had it running pretty good before i took the valve cover off just now. A little tweaking and i think i'll be pretty happy.

If he wound up at 107.5* doesn't that mean he should advance 2.5* on the TS to get to what's on the card (110LC)?
Now he's got the "card" (by phone to Larry) can some 1 direct him to some instructions (I wanna look over his shoulder so I C it again)?
There's echo's on-line vid (but he's so good at it he goes kinda fast) any book or written pathway thru this?

If i'm understanding correctly, 107.5* is advanced because it approaches that before the 110* LS. 112.5* would be retarded.
The video bubba posted, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zj-GA494SJQ is an excellent guide. Though, i had to watch it over and over, as you say, he is much faster than a novice. Also the graph he posted is an excellent visual aid to help understand what is actually happening with the lifter/rocker/valve. It's difficult to visualize all the things a motor does simultaneously. valve opens, air goes in as cylinder drops, valve closes, air compresses as piston goes up, boom, piston drops, ex. valve opens, piston rises, exhaust gasses escape, valve closes, repeat. and all the parts that are making these things happen. I can't even imagine what is going on in newer motors with more than 2 valves per cylinder, variable valve timing, etc, sheesh.

 

[ssm200]

The washers are right around 0.065 and the rockers don't touch the valves when they are closed. with these washers installed and the rocker assembly torqued, i can fit a 0.025 feeler gauge between the valve and the rocker. I have non-adjustable rockers, hydraulic lifters and hydraulic cam. I used bronze bearings and they are the thinnest washers i can find that have appropriate measurements.

1. Should the rockers have pressure on the valves in a static state?
2. Is this information an indication that the machinist that did the head work possibly did not mill the head as i requested? If he did mill the head to suit a 200 rather than the 250 it came from, 0.065 washers should be damn near perfect. This would mean my combustion chambers are far too large for this motor. Could that be why it isn't responding to the upgrades and modifications like i'm expecting?

If it does have too large of combustion chambers, the decreased compression ratio would be great for when i turbocharge it.

I can remove some of the material from these washers to make them thinner if it is a worthwhile effort.

 

[RichCreations]

The washers are right around 0.065 and the rockers don't touch the valves when they are closed. with these washers installed and the rocker assembly torqued, i can fit a 0.025 feeler gauge between the valve and the rocker. I have non-adjustable rockers, hydraulic lifters and hydraulic cam. I used bronze bearings and they are the thinnest washers i can find that have appropriate measurements.

1. Should the rockers have pressure on the valves in a static state?
2. Is this information an indication that the machinist that did the head work possibly did not mill the head as i requested? If he did mill the head to suit a 200 rather than the 250 it came from, 0.065 washers should be damn near perfect. This would mean my combustion chambers are far too large for this motor. Could that be why it isn't responding to the upgrades and modifications like i'm expecting?

If it does have too large of combustion chambers, the decreased compression ratio would be great for when i turbocharge it.

I can remove some of the material from these washers to make them thinner if it is a worthwhile effort.

the fact that you have .025 lash with the washers, that means you do not need the washers, as the lifter range should cover that .040...

 

[bubba22349]

The washers are right around 0.065 and the rockers don't touch the valves when they are closed. with these washers installed and the rocker assembly torqued, i can fit a 0.025 feeler gauge between the valve and the rocker. I have non-adjustable rockers, hydraulic lifters and hydraulic cam. I used bronze bearings and they are the thinnest washers i can find that have appropriate measurements.

1. Should the rockers have pressure on the valves in a static state?
2. Is this information an indication that the machinist that did the head work possibly did not mill the head as i requested? If he did mill the head to suit a 200 rather than the 250 it came from, 0.065 washers should be damn near perfect. This would mean my combustion chambers are far too large for this motor. Could that be why it isn't responding to the upgrades and modifications like i'm expecting?

If it does have too large of combustion chambers, the decreased compression ratio would be great for when i turbocharge it.

I can remove some of the material from these washers to make them thinner if it is a worthwhile effort.

X2 yes you should for sure leave the washers out then.

1. No not really they should be at zero lash but not much pressure on the valves until the cam lobe starts to lift. There should be at least about .060 of lifter preload if all the rocker geometry and push Rod length is correct. Did you happen to put a straight edge Accross the tops of the valve stems to check if they all match to the same height?

2. Yes I think your assumption is right on that the head didn't get milled the full amount you asked for and more than likely was only a very light cut. Yes for sure it will be lacking enough in the compression ratio department to effect your performance. Yes a turbo could sure fix it, good luck

 

[ssm200]

I put a straight edge across the valves and i cannot see any variation in the depth of the valves except one is a hair low in the cylinder.

On another note, i was checking valve lash as i was putting the rocker assembly back on and noticed that i could push the push rod end of the rocker down and it would spring back. Never noticed this before, just figured it was part of how the hydraulic lifters operate. Then i check the rest and only like 3 have any spring to them. It seems like this is a problem that cannot be overlooked. These are "dead" lifters, right?

Thoughts? The head has to come back off, doesn't it. And i can't reuse the head gasket can i. :arg: what about the head bolts, can i at least reuse them? they are ARP bolts. i've driven maybe 10 miles since i put the head back on.

Any advice on lifter selection?

am i closer to the end than the beginning?

 

[RichCreations]

I put a straight edge across the valves and i cannot see any variation in the depth of the valves except one is a hair low in the cylinder.

On another note, i was checking valve lash as i was putting the rocker assembly back on and noticed that i could push the push rod end of the rocker down and it would spring back. Never noticed this before, just figured it was part of how the hydraulic lifters operate. Then i check the rest and only like 3 have any spring to them. It seems like this is a problem that cannot be overlooked. These are "dead" lifters, right?

Thoughts? The head has to come back off, doesn't it. And i can't reuse the head gasket can i. :arg: what about the head bolts, can i at least reuse them? they are ARP bolts. i've driven maybe 10 miles since i put the head back on.

Any advice on lifter selection?

am i closer to the end than the beginning?

The head must come off to replace lifters, but ARP bolts can be reused. Gasket can not... Collapsed lifters happen, especially if you did not change them.

 

[bubba22349]

Or the lifters have just bled down from sitting and also from taking the rockers off. First if you still can run the engine after the rockers are installed, do that for awhile warming it up good and then try that test again on those lifters. Good luck