Time to ask for help. Timing and tuning problems.

[ssm200]

Bubba,

1. I don't believe i have a vacuum leak, but will check again.
2. They are fixed rockers, no valve adjustment.
3. No idea what timing set i used. I may have a receipt somewhere, i save everything.
4. I checked vacuum twice every time, on the spark control port and then manifold vacuum, through the unused intake temp sensor. i think that is what it was for. it's a 1/2" pipe thread just like the coolant temp sensor bung. I use it for the PCV and the transmission vacuum.
5. I would love to add more base timing, as i think that's what it wants. I was nearly in the green zone on the vacuum gauge, i think around 14-15"
6. I read up on selecting a power valve and it seems i need to get everything else sorted out to get a good vacuum reading before i can select the proper power valve. Is this accurate?

9. So i could be getting weird stuff from the hot air tube being...well...gone. If i use the brake line method, i wrap the other end around one of the header tubes and leave it open? Does it draw it's own air? The choke blade currently opens completely with a little resistance, but that could be from the warm air around the motor when it's parked. Then while driving i suppose it could close some and i would never know. Stupid choke. I have some work to do here. Since i removed the choke pull down diaphram, will i be able to get the choke working properly? or should i consider scrapping the thing and going with a manual choke?

I will keep tuning, probably post more tomorrow or sunday. Thanks again.

 

[bubba22349]

Bubba,

1. I don't believe i have a vacuum leak, but will check again.
2. They are fixed rockers, no valve adjustment.
3. No idea what timing set i used. I may have a receipt somewhere, i save everything.
4. I checked vacuum twice every time, on the spark control port and then manifold vacuum, through the unused intake temp sensor. i think that is what it was for. it's a 1/2" pipe thread just like the coolant temp sensor bung. I use it for the PCV and the transmission vacuum.
5. I would love to add more base timing, as i think that's what it wants. I was nearly in the green zone on the vacuum gauge, i think around 14-15"
6. I read up on selecting a power valve and it seems i need to get everything else sorted out to get a good vacuum reading before i can select the proper power valve. Is this accurate?

9. So i could be getting weird stuff from the hot air tube being...well...gone. If i use the brake line method, i wrap the other end around one of the header tubes and leave it open? Does it draw it's own air? The choke blade currently opens completely with a little resistance, but that could be from the warm air around the motor when it's parked. Then while driving i suppose it could close some and i would never know. Stupid choke. I have some work to do here. Since i removed the choke pull down diaphram, will i be able to get the choke working properly? or should i consider scrapping the thing and going with a manual choke?

I will keep tuning, probably post more tomorrow or sunday. Thanks again.

1. That's great if you have no vacuum leaks!

2. Ok fixed rockers check! I assume that you cut or milled the head down when you modded it. See if you can find some .060 to .062 thousands flat washers (this is about 1/16 of an inch thick) place one washer under each of the rocker stands and torque them back down to spec then redo your compression test again to see if it changes any for the better.

3. Great if you can find out any of the details or some of the part numbers from the receipts on any parts that you used it would be helpful.

4. Excellent that is the best place to take any vacuum readings!

5. That's not be too bad if you can get into the 14 to 15 range, we would like to see it around 16 to 18 whch would be even better.

6. Yes that's correct it's best to get everything set as good as you can first.

9. Yes it's wrapped around a header tube and the end is left open so it can draw the warm air into the choke housing. Yes it draws its own air in its a controlled vacuum leak to pull warm air in. It's really a very simple system with only a few parts however they all need to be installed correctly in place for it to work right. That would be your choice if you want to convert it over to a manual choke, personally I like an auto choke and once it's setup correctly they are fairly bullet proof! "Set it up once and forget it". In the mean time if you don't still have the parts you took off then you should idex (clock it) so the choke cover is to full lean so the choke blade stays full open or else tie it keep it fully open with some wire you don't want to chance it being closed or partly closed when your driving it, this maybe a big part of your problem of being too rich. Good luck

 

[Ronbo]

Wow! Deja vu (or whatever), I step away and someone else pops up with almost the same situation. Watching intently now to see what happens. Bike is up and moving so I feel a bit better. Howdy Bubba, miss me?

 

[bubba22349]

:rolflmao: Hi Ronbo, yeah glad you got the bike going, so are you planing to get back to work on that wayward Mustang?

 

[bubba22349]

I'm wondering if the distributor advance isn't working.
If you have to add that much timing (20°)to get 'er going then that's where I'd look.
Maybe be a busted spring in there?

X2 you can test out the correct operation of your Centrivical Advance and Vacuum Advance too using your timing light if you have some additional timing marks you could read and calculate the total advance with the use of some additional timing marks up to about 60 degrees or see if you can find some timing tape for the right diameter of the dampener.

So Steve, if you have now accomplished all the above fixes and tests then let's trying adding some more base timing using the Vacuum Gauge reading advance it until you see the highest vacuum reading then back it up so that the reading is 1 Hg. less. Then retune the carb mixture and curb idle. Take it out and drive it see if you get any pinging if you do then drop the timing back a little and try it again. Good luck

 

[ssm200]

Been under the hood a bit today, I did find another vacuum leak, fairly substantial. Now NO leaks.
I installed the heat tube for the choke and adjusted the fast idle and it all seems to be working the way it should.
I dropped the float down another 1/16 for 1/4 total from the top. The fuel level is around 5/8" from the top of the bowl.
The "k cluster" Is in great shape, but looks different from some others i have seen. There are only holes in the tubes up at the top, not all the way down. Probably just a different design, but they are shiny brass with no damage.
I ran through the tuning again and things went a bit differently, idle in drive was happy around 500 rpms now. when i went to 600, idle in neutral was like 1700, not sure if this is indicative of anything.
Vacuum in drive was still around 7" and in neutral was around 14" when measured at the intake manifold.
I advanced the timing to 16* and readjusted everything. I drove it around and things are still getting better, but not better than before the carb conversion. I know the timing advances when i rev the motor and i have additional marks up to 60* I don't know how to test the distributor though. after i drove it, i started it a few times and the starter seems to be struggling. I'm a little concerned to go any further than 16* because of this.

I don't know where to go from here. It is running good, just doesn't have the power. It may be the same as before, but it's definitely not more powerful. I feel like i should be seeing HP gains. I'll get the timing light back on it and try to time it based on the vacuum reading. I'm glad it's not hot out, that makes tuning such a PITA. I'll be back later. Thanks.

 

[ssm200]

I adjusted the timing while reading the vacuum as you described and it landed me at 30* advanced
It's a little more powerful, more responsive, shifts better than ever. but wont start now :x

So something in my distributor is broken? How about one of the recurved ones from Bill the distributor man? I don't care about replacing broken stuff with good new stuff, i just want to make sure i'm replacing something that's broken.

If it is the valve timing, how far off could it be? it's not like i was a whole tooth off, what is the worst it could be, a degree or two? How does it even get adjusted, with special sprockets. I'm at my wits end. Maybe i'm expecting too much out of this motor. Should i be able to spin the tires with this setup? I don't believe i'm even close to that amount of power.

I'm probably out of time for today. Before i hang it up, i am going to go to 20* advanced so i can get it started again and take it for a spin. Will post again if anything interesting happens.

 

[ssm200]

Set timing at 20* and readjusted eveything. I'm content for now. I will be looking into the compression problem next chance i get. I am going to do a wet compression test and if that passes I will try shimming the rocker assembly as described. The centrifugal advance seems to be working, the timing advances steadily as the rpms increase. I don't know if this means much. Would it be worthwhile to get one of Bill's recurved ds2 distributors? mine is just a junk yard ds2 off a Futura, i believe. I didn't do anything to it but cap and rotor. Stock brain from the donor car.

Is there any way to tell if my valve timing is off without pulling the timing cover?

 

[bubba22349]

You can test that your distributor is advancing with your timing light put some chock marks on the dampener marks at 15, 30, 40, and sixty 60. Plug the vacuum line going to the distributor so you will see only what the Centrivical advance dose, check timing amount you have at idle then raise the engine rpm up to 2000 to 3000 range and watch if and how much the timing changes write down your results. Repeate this test with the Vacum advance hooked up and write down the results. Bill dose a great job on his distribors so if you need one it could be a big help to you. Edited

 

[bubba22349]

Been under the hood a bit today, I did find another vacuum leak, fairly substantial. Now NO leaks.
I installed the heat tube for the choke and adjusted the fast idle and it all seems to be working the way it should.
I dropped the float down another 1/16 for 1/4 total from the top. The fuel level is around 5/8" from the top of the bowl.
The "k cluster" Is in great shape, but looks different from some others i have seen. There are only holes in the tubes up at the top, not all the way down. Probably just a different design, but they are shiny brass with no damage.
I ran through the tuning again and things went a bit differently, idle in drive was happy around 500 rpms now. when i went to 600, idle in neutral was like 1700, not sure if this is indicative of anything.
Vacuum in drive was still around 7" and in neutral was around 14" when measured at the intake manifold.
I advanced the timing to 16* and readjusted everything. I drove it around and things are still getting better, but not better than before the carb conversion. I know the timing advances when i rev the motor and i have additional marks up to 60* I don't know how to test the distributor though. after i drove it, i started it a few times and the starter seems to be struggling. I'm a little concerned to go any further than 16* because of this.

I don't know where to go from here. It is running good, just doesn't have the power. It may be the same as before, but it's definitely not more powerful. I feel like i should be seeing HP gains. I'll get the timing light back on it and try to time it based on the vacuum reading. I'm glad it's not hot out, that makes tuning such a PITA. I'll be back later. Thanks.

1. The float level setting should be good enough for now. Just as long as your not seeing any fuel going down the carb into the intake after you shut off the engine.

2. As long as the K cluster has not cracked between the holes then your good there.

3. If it will idle nicely at 450, 475, or 500 RPM then that's very good the lower the idel RPM the better and there's no point in raising it any higher.

4. Excessive idle RPM in neutral is very hard on the trans when you put it into gear.

5. You should try whashers under the rocker arm stands and retest the compression if it doesn't help then time to continue working on the carb problems

6. Next Find out if the carb float float is bad examine it closely for any signs of deteriation, fuel absorption, excessive weight. If in doubt and you never replaced it before then it's best to replace it with new one.

7. If you can't get any higher of a vacuum reading, with only a 7 Hg. Vacuum reading in drive your power valve needs to be changed to a 3.5 more than likely you will now have a 8.5 or 6.5 this is allowing it to be way too rich at idle in gear. If it's pig rich it will make the engine very lazy at low speeds.

6. If ithe starter is struggling at the 16 degrees BTDC base timing then you should probally stop or even back it up to 15, cause on a hot day after driving it it's not going to want to start. Edited

 

[bubba22349]

I adjusted the timing while reading the vacuum as you described and it landed me at 30* advanced
It's a little more powerful, more responsive, shifts better than ever. but wont start now :x

So something in my distributor is broken? How about one of the recurved ones from Bill the distributor man? I don't care about replacing broken stuff with good new stuff, i just want to make sure i'm replacing something that's broken.

If it is the valve timing, how far off could it be? it's not like i was a whole tooth off, what is the worst it could be, a degree or two? How does it even get adjusted, with special sprockets. I'm at my wits end. Maybe i'm expecting too much out of this motor. Should i be able to spin the tires with this setup? I don't believe i'm even close to that amount of power.

I'm probably out of time for today. Before i hang it up, i am going to go to 20* advanced so i can get it started again and take it for a spin. Will post again if anything interesting happens.

1. 30 to 20 degrees base timing is just not going to work right! With the additional Centrivical Advance that you likely have it would be "Detonation and Destruction Time " in short order if it wasn't runing so rich as it is now. I am not there to see and hear it but from your descriptions, but at this point in the tune I would not use more then 15 to 16 degrees of base timing.

2. I see you tested the advance so you can rule out the distributor advance being broken. Though it would be helpful to know what the total advance is?

3. From your descriptions I am zeroing in a few possibilities. With the unusually high difference in the compression balance between the cylinders and with the fixed rockers it is very important that all the valve stem heights are set very close to the same height most good machine shops do this but some are not that carful when doing a valve job. To check this you would need to pull the valve cover and the rocker assembly then use a straight edge across the tops of the valve stems to see if they are close to the same you can use a use framing square or some thing else that is very straight and some feeler gauges to measure any differences.

4. Yes you can find out what the camshaft timing is set at without removing the timing cover. The camshaft timing could not be checked accurately though unless the valve cover is off and you would need to also have a degree wheel and a dial indicator to do the check with. For more info also see 6. Below

5. The carb may need to have the Power Valve Chanel's restricted some too along with the lower rated Power
Valve.

6. It's not that you are expecting too much out your combo it's that you had numerous problems all stacking up against you, at the same time. Many you have all ready fixed or corrected and gotten some good improvements, but there are still a couple of serious ones left to deal with. This is compression balance (the reason to try out the washers) and the carb being so pig rich these are the two biggest for right now. To a lessor extent but still quite important in the total tuning package would be a fresh distributor set up with the right advance curve, and last is where the camshaft timing position is set it may or may not be ideal for getting the very best and the highest Vacuum Readings from your combo. I would focus on those two major ones first and if you having access to the degree wheel and dial indicator to also check the camshaft at the same time then you could also put that to rest too. Look for something like this in a degree wheel, like the bigger ones as its easier for me to see.

http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams- ... gree+wheel

Or this its probably not going to be as easy for me to see as the one above but if you still have good eyesight should work just fine.

http://www.amazon.com/BikeMaster-Alumin ... gree+wheel

And something like this budget Dial Indicator should be able to do the job

http://www.amazon.com/Dial-Indicator-Ma ... +indicator

Piston stop tool is optional but if you want to find the exact TDC pick up something like this in the correct MM plug size, I have also made my own using an old spark plug shell and welding a bolt or rod in it,too.

18 MM
http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams- ... +stop+tool

14 MM
http://www.amazon.com/Proform-66792-Dea ... H1RT0JF5AN

You have been pretty good with your descriptions of the problems, and following up with the fixes in your posts and let me tell you that along with a few pictures is very helpful in diagnosing what's wrong. I did notice another item in one of your above posts (the fuel washing down the intake after the engine is shut down) after rereading it again tonight and found out that I somehow missed it before so I have reEdited some of my above posts adding and updating them so you may want to go back and read those again. Good luck Edited

 

[chad]

heel
http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams- ... gree+wheel
And something like this budget Dial Indicator sould do the job
http://www.amazon.com/Dial-Indicator-Ma ... +indicator
Piston stop tool is optional but if you want to find the exact TDC pick up something like this in the correct plug size, I have made my own using an old spark plug shell and welding a bolt or rod in it,too.
http://www.amazon.com/Proform-66792-Dea ... H1RT0JF5AN
ad those again. Good luck Edited

Jeesh bubba - you lay it ALL out there - including tools this time.

I may go for that dial indicator, it's complete, left mine at the last machine shop job 1974. And the TDC finder! (but a lill pricy on my budget).

 

[ssm200]

I bought a recurved distributor form Bill, it should be here this week. I picked up a 3.5 power valve. I will put these in next then investigate the compression problem further.

Since i have the 250 head milled down for my 200, it's my understanding that the pushrods would then be longer than originally designed, and that is why shimming the rocker stands would be beneficial. is this accurate?
If i was to shim the rocker assembly, wouldn't the washer on the rear rocker stand cut the flow of oil to the rocker assembly?

One last thing before i buy the dial indicator and degree wheel, what is the procedure for checking the cam timing only looking under the valve cover?

Thank you all for your help. I help a lot of people who lack the knowledge and skill that i possess. It is so awesome for you (especially you this time, Bubba) to do the same for me.

 

[bubba22349]

I bought a recurved distributor form Bill, it should be here this week. I picked up a 3.5 power valve. I will put these in next then investigate the compression problem further.

Since i have the 250 head milled down for my 200, it's my understanding that the pushrods would then be longer than originally designed, and that is why shimming the rocker stands would be beneficial. is this accurate?

1. Yes

If i was to shim the rocker assembly, wouldn't the washer on the rear rocker stand cut the flow of oil to the rocker assembly?

2. It shouldn't since that one rocker stands bolt is suppose to have a smaller (necked down section) on the bolt shank to allow the oil to flow around it. Check the bottoms of your rocker stands diameter hole size an match the washer so that the hole size is the same.

One last thing before i buy the dial indicator and degree wheel, what is the procedure for checking the cam timing only looking under the valve cover?

3. If you have a fully degree'ed damper (360) you could do without the degree wheel but you would still need away to measure when the cams intake and exhaust lobes starts to lift, reaches full lift, and then also when it closes. Visually you could see those events with you eye watching the rocker arms and rocking the crank back n forth if you had the fully degreed dampener you could read then degrees of the opening and closing events.

Thank you all for your help. I help a lot of people who lack the knowledge and skill that i possess. It is so awesome for you (especially you this time, Bubba) to do the same for me.

Here is a video by the site member "echo1955" from a severial years back it covers cam degreeing very well and may help you to understand the process!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zj-GA494SJQ

Your are quite welcome, Good luck

 

[bubba22349]

ssm200, so how you doing on the tuning?

 

[wsa111]

I bought a recurved distributor form Bill, it should be here this week. I picked up a 3.5 power valve. I will put these in next then investigate the compression problem further.

Since i have the 250 head milled down for my 200, it's my understanding that the pushrods would then be longer than originally designed, and that is why shimming the rocker stands would be beneficial. is this accurate?
If i was to shim the rocker assembly, wouldn't the washer on the rear rocker stand cut the flow of oil to the rocker assembly?

One last thing before i buy the dial indicator and degree wheel, what is the procedure for checking the cam timing only looking under the valve cover?

Thank you all for your help. I help a lot of people who lack the knowledge and skill that i possess. It is so awesome for you (especially you this time, Bubba) to do the same for me.

I normally run a 6.5-8.5 power valve to bring the pvcr in sooner to prevent a lean bog with a large carb on a small engine. If you have the 4412-500 carb you also might have to richen the accerator pump nozzles to a .030" area. Le me know if you need metering block mods on your Holley.
Bubba, thanks for the link on camshaft degreeing it should help anyone in question on that subject.

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Bill, I think that he posted that he is using a 2150 Motorcraft 1.21. Yes Echo 1955, did a such a great job on all his videos of his 200 build. Good luck

 

[ssm200]

I put the new recurved distributor on and the 3.5 power valve. The one that was in there is not clear as to the rating, it has 4 stamps: E....3....5....8 no numbers next to each other. Don't know what the heck that means but oh well. now i know what is in there. I completely rewired the ignition system to run the full 12v to the coil and control box instead of the 6v that supplied the stock dizzy. I cleaned some things up with the wiring, installed a relay controlled by the ignition switch that powers a new fuse panel i put in. This is what the 12v comes from for the ignition system. That part of the project went really well. I set the initial timing advance at 20* per Bill's recommendation, adjusted idle mix and curb idle. It is back to square one with the tuning. It falls on it's face again. It would lose a race against me on my bicycle. If it wasn't for the countless hours i put into the body work and paint, i would throw in the towel. I'm going to leave it sit a while and come back to it another time. I don't want to be mad at my car.

 

[wsa111]

I was just looking at his vehicle specs, thanks yes its an autolite.
I enclosed my business card, give me a call after 12:00 PM EDT.
The 3.5 power valve is leaving you a huge lean hole in your fuel curve.
Need all the specs on your 2150, jet size, accelerator pump size, setting of the pump on the actuating lever???
One drive with my innovate wide band A/F tester & that would tell the whole story.Steve call me-Bill

 

[bubba22349]

Ok well sorry to hear that, but this is why I tried to give you a step by step program order of doing things and focusing also those that were either of a no cost or or low cost too. IE the Basic tune up, using the washers to see if it raised your compression and raising the idle vacuum etc. As you now know there are lots of areas that need to be checked when doing custom tuning of parts that weren't designed to be used together on your engine, as well as having a mechanical issue or two, i.e. The compression balance and not knowing how the cam was installed. You probally will need to also check the accelerator pump linkage adjustment to see if the pump shot is timed right and or has a long enough duration too to carry the engine through until the RPM's come up. Good luck