All Small Six Tuning Engine for New Transmission

This relates to all small sixes

65 Mustang

Well-known member
Hello Everyone. Just replaced my C4 automatic for a 3.03 manual. Started it up for the first time yesterday. The engine had no problem starting, but it’s clear that I have to adjust things a little differently with the new transmission. I’m getting some clanking sounds from the engine which is telling me that the push rods need to be readjusted. Does that make sense as a result of this transmission change? I have a 200 ci and installed adjustable push rods a while back. Also, I think that the idle speed on my carburetor needs to be set to a new rpm value. Does the ignition timing have to be changed as well? Not exactly sure what I have it to at the moment (maybe 10 degrees BTDC). Any help on what needs to be done to dial in the engine to work best with the new transmission would be great. Thanks in advance.
 
Hi 65 Mustang, On stock a 1965 Mustang 200 six's the two things that can change in the engine tune up specs are the Base Ignition timing BTDC and the Curb Idle RPM. along with that the Carb's Mixture setting can also change some. All other tune up setting's were the same, see below for stock tune up specs. Base timing can probably work just fine were you have it set but you will likely need to reset the Carbs Mixture Screw along with your Curb Idle RPM since its higher right now at a no load Idle. No the trans change should not of caused the lifter noise so they probably weren't set to correct pre-load before and now because the engine is idling higher with no load on it your hearing it. Best of Luck

Basic 1965 Ford Mustang 200 Inline Six was rated at 120 HP.
They used BF-82 Spark Plugs Gaped at 0.034, the points are set first to a gap 0.025 and then set to 38 Degrees of Dwell. A manual Trans car was set to 6 to 8 Degrees BTDC of Base Timing, the C4 Auto Trans was set to a base timing of 10 to 12 Degrees BTDC, Curb Idle RPM was 500 to 525 for a Manual Trans car and 485 to 500 in Drive for an Auto Trans car, Fuel Pump Pressure was 4 ½ PSI.
 
You need to get rid of the junk loadamatic ignition.
You have 2 choices, get my DS11 curved for you build or a HEI if you don't have power steering.
Question contact me. Bill wsa111 billythedistributorman@live.com
 
Thanks for replies. The engine feels very strong. It starts up with a lot more power than it did several weeks back when I had the C4 in there. That got me thinking that it does not have as much resistance on it at idle as it once did and it seems to be revving high. I suspect my curb idle rpm is a lot higher than the 500-525 range that was mentioned. There is no tachometer on the car so it’s difficult for me to tell where the idle rpms are exactly. I’m going to try using a handheld digital tach the next time I’m out there. I do remember setting the idle rpm on the high side a long time ago to deal with stalling issues I was having. I’ll start by resetting the idle rpm and see where that gets me. Hopefully it brings that noise down. I will video the engine running the next time I get out there (hopefully tomorrow) and post it to let you all hear what I am referring to. After that, I’ll look to reset the timing to the suggested 6 to 8 degrees BTDC. Thanks again.
 
If you re set the timing then you will also need to slightly readjust the carb again to fine tune it. When doing a tune up the quickest order of doing it is to set your spark plug gap first then the distributor points, Extra Note its important that if you have a very early engine with the Solid Lifters than the Valve Lash needs to be set to ".018 Hot" at this time, next set the base timing and the Carb setting would be at the last. And as a final tip note that when you are setting the Carb mixture screw be sure to have your air cleaner installed. Good Luck
 
Do a compression check. This is the best way to determine the condition of the engine, if nothing else to get a base line.
Get rid of the loadomatic distributor if you have one. If this engine has the 1/4 oil pump drive you do not have much choice. Dui has one but is $$$. Contact billythedistributorman@live.com as he may have an answer.

Setting initial timing without knowing total timing is a waste of time. With a loadomatic dizzy I do not know how this can be done under a load. Usually total timing is set with no vacuum (normal dizzy) at about 34 deg at 3000 all in depending on CR and cam. Then let idle timing be where it winds up or adjust dizzy curve. Also the loadomatic dizzy has to be used with the designed carburetor.

This did not answer your initial question! Changing the transmission should not make engine sounds. I would check valve adjustment (EOIC) and do the compression check, Just thinking if the flywheel has a different weight than the torque converter it could be allowing you to hear noises that you did not hear before.
 
X2 that's a very good idea alwill923, Doing a Compression Check is always a very good first step to get to know the engines condition! Only the 1960 to 1964 year model 144 , 170 and 200 sixes would of had the 1/4 inch Oil Pump Drive Shafts so isn't very likely for a 1965 Mustang but you can and should check your Short Block Casting / Design numbers to know exactly what year you might have. The much maligned Load O Matic Distributors total timing can actually be set and dialed in for quite good economy but this usually should be done on a Distributor machine. I absolutely agree if the best performance out of your small six is your goal then its better to swap it out along with the SCV Carb (or in some cases they can Moded to remove the SCV circuit). The Minimum best to use is a 1968 to 1974 Points Distributor that has the dual Advance System or better yet the 1976 to 1983 DuraSpark II since they will drop right in place and the performance is so much better and the economy is improved too. All of Ford Falcon small sixes 144, 170, 200, and 250 use a Zero Imbalance Flywheel or Flex Plate so this Trans change should have no real effect on the hearing any valve train noises.
 
if you want/need to change the distributor: the 'DuraSparkII Distributor' that ford put in the late model SB6 can be gotten easiest by telling your local parts store you want a distributor for a 78 or 79 Ford Fairmont 3.3L. its not likely, but its nice to know the easiest way to get the parts.

Bubba said it best with the tuning order as well, do the spark plug gaps first, then the distributor points. ifi its not a points distributor, move on to the timing (make sure vac-advance is unhooked, and the hose plugged), then any carb adjustments that may be needed, finishing with the Idle mixture and speed adjustments at the end, with the air-cleaner AND filter installed.

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but whats the condition of your oil? are you noticing any temp fluctuations? if you don't have a temp guage in the car, you can install a radiator cap with an integeral temp gauge to get an idea of whats going on as well.
 
Hello everyone. Thanks for all of the great info and advice. Been working on the car for the last couple of days. Still have the engine clatter, though. I am convinced that it’s coming from the valve train not being adjusted properly. I took a video that clearly registers the sound. However, the file is large and I’m having difficulty sending it. I’ll try again later. I reset the timing from 10 BTDC to 6 after checking spark gap. My next step is to try and get the valve train dialed in. I put an adjustable rocker arm on the car awhile back. I think I know the procedure to adjust the pushrods but I’m definitely open to suggestions. Do the lifters have to be compressed to squeeze out the oil in order to properly adjust preload? If so, how would one go about that? Perhaps a new distributor is in the future. For now, though, I’d like to get the engine running the best I can with what I have. It does have a pertronix ignition. Not sure about 1/4 inch oil pump, but the casting on my block is C8 which I believe means 1968. I included a picture of my rocker assembly. Thanks again for information.
 

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One thing that I have learned is that when putting the rocker assembly on, some of the pushrods can get pulled up out of the lifter cup and ride up higher, out of place. Keep that in mind. It looks like some of the adjustment screws are at quite a different height, maybe nothing or just loose and out of adjustment or the pushrod may be out of place...I cannot give any hyd. lifter adjustment advice because my 200's are solid lifters. One more reminder never lift the pushrod up more than an inch without making sure that the lifter is not stuck to the pushrod. It is difficult to get back in place.
 
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I’m kind of assuming the lifters are hydraulic based upon year of car. Never pulled them out to check. Perhaps I should do so. Going to try and work on adjusting valve train this afternoon.
 
I put in high revving solid lifter cams in..I was not suggesting that yours would be. they should be hyd. because there is no indication that the lifters have been changed, especially with the original nonadjustable rockers that was on it.
 
Yeah, they most likely are hydraulic. I’ll also do a compression test as suggested while I am out there today before I start making any adjustments. To answer an earlier question, my oil appears to be in pretty good condition. The engine received an oil change not to long ago. As far as the temperature is concerned, I do have a gauge. However, I haven’t been paying attention to it. I’ll check on it while I’m working on the car today. Everyone seems to agree that changing the transmission should not cause me to hear valve train noise. The car definitely starts much more easily. There’s almost no cranking. As soon as I turn the key, the engine starts up. It seems that there is much less resistance on the engine now as it is idling. As mentioned earlier, I’m probably hearing the valve train more now only because it wasn’t adjusted properly to begin with.
 
So I would guess that a 200 C4 equipped early vehicle used a rear gear ratio of near 2.80.
The first tune up should be a gear ratio change to around 3.25 or 3.50 depending on tire size.
The initial timing on LOM distributor equipped engines should be set according to the specific distributor (part number). Changing the tranmission has nothing to do with the advance curve of a specific part number distributor. Manual and automatics equipped vehicles did not use he same distributor.
 
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Oh ok. If I’m understanding correctly, you are saying that the LOM distributors are physically different in a manual versus automatic car. The 10-12 BTDC for auto and 6-8 BTDC for manual trans are actually based on the distributor itself and not the transmission? My car left the factory as a manual transmission vehicle. The C4 was placed in somewhere along the line. It’s possible the LOM is for a manual transmission. You mention part number of the distributor. Where would I find that number? Also, do you know what number is associated with a manual transmission versus automatic?

When you say a gear ratio change, are you referring to the gears in the differential?
 
Oh ok. If I’m understanding correctly, you are saying that the LOM distributors are physically different in a manual versus automatic car. The 10-12 BTDC for auto and 6-8 BTDC for manual trans are actually based on the distributor itself and not the transmission? My car left the factory as a manual transmission vehicle. The C4 was placed in somewhere along the line. It’s possible the LOM is for a manual transmission. You mention part number of the distributor. Where would I find that number? Also, do you know what number is associated with a manual transmission versus automatic?

When you say a gear ratio change, are you referring to the gears in the differential?
Yes. "The LOM distributors are physically different (ADVANCE CURVE) in a manual versus automatic car" as evidenced by the Ford part numbers.
Yes I was referring to the gears in the differential.
Every "kid" should know automatics used different gear ratios than stick shifts.
Maybe try a google search for 1965 Ford 200 distributor specifications.
Here is an example:
LOM dist.JPG
 
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78_200_C4 - Thanks for all of the info. I tried finding a number on the distributor today but had no luck. I also took a look at the differential to find some type of ID, but it’s going to need a surface cleaning. The car did start out as a manual so there is a possibility that the distributor is the correct one. I know for sure that the Autolite 1100 carb I have is the correct one for a manual as it does not have the anti-stall dash pot that is found on the automatic models. I have been using it with the C4 despite that. As far as the differential is concerned, even if it is original to the car, it may have been for a different three speed transmission. I could be wrong, but I think that the 1965 inline six came with the 2.77 transmission not the 3.03 that I put in. Anyway, I’ll try to find out for sure. Thanks for alerting me to the gear ratio. I knew that if you put a V8 in you would have to change the gear ratio, but it did not occur to me that it would be necessary for this transmission change.

I feel that I got the valve train dialed in today. My initial cylinder compression was around 140 psi across the board. That is what I have been running for a while. The manual calls for a cylinder compression value of 155-195 psi. I have never had compression higher than than 140’s on this car since I got it. It was much lower when I first got.

When adjusting the pushrods, I used the method where you place cylinder one on TDC of the compression stroke and then adjust #1 Intake, #1 Exhaust, #2 Intake, #3 Exhaust, #4 Intake and # 5 Exhaust. Then, I rotated the engine until cylinder #6 was on TDC of the compression stroke. At that point I adjusted #2 Exhaust, #3 Intake, #4 Exhaust, #5 Intake, #6 Intake and #6 Exhaust. I tightened the adjuster until I could no longer rotate the pushrod with my fingers then I gave it about three quarters more of a turn. That extra turn at the end is where I have seen a lot of differences. Some say 1/4 turn or 1/2 turn. I even saw one individual suggest a full rotation. After I started the car back up, the engine ran terribly. It was very weak and shaking all over the place. I quickly ran another compression test. Cylinder #’s 1, 4 and 6 had zero compression! However, cylinders 2, 3 and 5 had a compression of 177, 177 and 180 psi respectively. Despite not having any compression on three of my cylinders, I was amazed to have compression value around 180 for the other three. I never had values that high. I wasn’t worried about the cylinders with no compression. I was pretty sure that the adjusters were over tightened on those cylinders keeping the valves from fully closing. I pulled the valve cover off again and backed off on the adjuster for cylinders 1, 4 and 6. I forget exactly how far I backed off. Either 1/4 or 1/2 turn. I tried the compression test again and cylinders 4 and 6 were now at 177 and 176 psi. Cylinder 1 was still at zero. I backed off cylinder one a little more and got its compression to 101 psi. After backing off a little more, cylinder 1’s compression went to 179 psi. I retested the compression of all the cylinders and got the following: #1-179, #2-177, #3-173, #4-174, #5-178, and #6-174. I have never had compression numbers on this engine that high before. Even better, when I ran the engine, it ran strong and there was no more of the clatter.

It is, though, idling very high. I have a handheld digital tachometer that sends a laser to a piece of tape placed on a rotating object. I placed the tape on the fan pulley. I wanted to place it on the crank pulley but couldn’t find a good spot. I’m guessing the fan pulley rotates in a 1:1 ratio with the crank (if not, please let me know). Anyway, the rpm reading that I was getting is 1380. That was with the engine warm. I know that is pretty high. My manual calls for an idle speed of 575 to 600 rpm. This is more than double. The next thing I need to do is readjust the cold and hot idle screw on the carburetor. I did not do it today because I am not sure of the proper procedure. I am going to do a little homework and hopefully get back out there tomorrow. Once again, thanks for all of the great information. Appreciate it.
 
Learn how to adjust the valves with the engine running a very slow idle.
Use a piece or cardboard (like a valve cover gasket box for oil control) If valve adjustment is too loose (1/4 turn) the rockers will clack when cold but be fine at operating temp. Try a 1/2 turn.
This way the lifters will be bled down and not hold any valves open making it run terrible.
Install an ebay China made Black cap HEI dist. with wire set powered thru a relay.
If you install an HEI advance curve kit don't use the weights, only use the lighter springs.
Connect the HEI vacuum advance to full vacuum, plug the LOM carb vacuum advance port.
You really don't need a tach. Adjust the the high and low idle speeds to what you like. 1380 is high though.
You really don't need a repair manual to work on an old Ford six.
I was paid by my grandfather back around 1969 to install new rings, bearings and a clutch in a 6 cylinder ford truck with a granny 4 speed when I 16. I didn't have a manual. If needed I got bolt torque spec's from the parts store. This very old mechanic (about 90) told me I didn't need a torque wrench. He was right. I do use a torgue wrench on the head, rod, and main bolts but I am sure I that really don't need one.
 
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