US 250 Owners: Nuclear Timing Chain HSC/US 250/Oz 250

[xctasy]

Does10s awesome post on the "one link less" reversed SBF Double Roller timing chain set was a delight.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=58314&p=447439&hilit=SBF+Timing#p447439

Seams everyone who really hits the drag scene with the US 250 seams to have inconsistancy and reliablity issues due to what I believe is cam timing scatter. Its not a big feature of the US 144/170/200 or Aussie or Argentine 188/221/250 engines, as the bigger Aussie and Argie engines got better wider link belts with a tight pitch.

So I got to thinking...



The US HSC 2300 and 2500 are thechnically not 3300/200 CID I6 based fours at all, as they use the US/Australian 221/250 cam positioning. The main bearings are 250 sized, and nothing from the 3.3 fits the 2.3 or 2.5, as the 4 cylinders rods, crank stroke are all different. Not sure on the oil pump.

Fours vibrate badly in line north south set ups, which is why you never saw HSC 2300/2500's in rear drive situations. In FWD, West East situations, all the vibes can be largely dampened out using the existing mounts. The timing chain though is still under imense stress, so you may be interested to know the HSC Timing chain isn't Aussie or US 221/250 based, but has been upgraded to a very special 46 link, 0.5" pitch item with 17 teeth on the crank and 34 on the cam. And a really good tensioner. Not at all like the 200 and 250, and the water pump has been placed on the side of the block, so the 2.3/2.5 has lots of space for the tensioner, which is taken up with the front mounted water pump on the small sixes.

I'd like to ask someone with a US 250. Bearing in mind how bad the stock 56 link 1 and 0.625" wide 42/21 teeth system is, wouldn't a used or new HSC Tempo or 2.5 Taurus item just bolt on and fix all the problems. Any one willing to have a go?

Same with the N code 6 inch 2500 HSC rods found on 1986 to 1990 FWD Fords with the 153 cube 2.5 liter engine ...likely to be a straight bolt in to the US 250, perfect to the thousandth to correct the 89 to 120 thou short fall of the 1.531" inch piston from the top of the 9.469" block with the 3.91" stroke.

Those Autoplus timing chain specs cover the Aussie, German Cologne and American engines from 1984 to 2000 ish, and are found in http://autoplus-tk.com/pages/fd.htm

If I'm not mistaken, the key kit is the same between the 8.66" deck 2.3 and 9.38" deck 2.5. Yes, they use the same cam to crank spacing as each other....and the 9.469" deck US 250 and 8.425 and 9.38" Aussie 188-221/250!

HSC 2300 (140) R,S or X code 84~94 FORD, LINCOLN/MERCURY
HSC 2500 (153) N code 86~92 FORD, LINCOLN/MERCURY
Cam Sprocket TK-FD203-A01, 46Link Timing chain TK-FD203-A03 1 Crank Sprocket TK-FD203-A02.

 

[Invectivus]

I'd be game, I have a supposedly 'freshened up' 250 at the shop waiting for me to get bolts for the engine stand, then a test frame fabbed up. I can try the timing chain fitment on the stand.

anyone have a design they like for a test frame? I figure it's easy enough to rough out with 1 inch square tube, but figure I'd ask anyway. Or someone can give me a model A...

 

[Invectivus]

What can you tell me about the connecting rods? I've been looking at NAPA online (just to get a ballpark) and they don't tell you too much. Are they forged by nature or something? or maybe lighter? i guess i'm asking why you think there'd be a benefit in using them.

Also, since these parts look pretty expensive, is there an engine code i can look for to just poach the entire engine from the salvage lot for fitment and comparison purposes? i can probably get a whole engine for the cost of one of these connecting rods...

 

[powerband]

I'd be game, I have a supposedly 'freshened up' 250 at the shop waiting for me to get bolts for the engine stand, then a test frame fabbed up. I can try the timing chain fitment on the stand.

anyone have a design they like for a test frame? I figure it's easy enough to rough out with 1 inch square tube, but figure I'd ask anyway. Or someone can give me a model A...

I'm very interested in the alternate cam chain arrangement. I run the Comet's 250 (258) well into 6K and timing chain is a central concern. 'hoping to build a "track-only" 250 engine with a D7xx block over winter...



Here's test stand put together with scraps of 2" "Versa-Bar", typically used for hanging plumbing and conduit from ceilings:
Has Temp/Oil/Vac guages and old T&D, now has elec car fan, big casters are good idea. This 200 came from Columbia University's Physics Lab Dynamometer!.
<>

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v296/ ... YNO%20200/

 

[xctasy]

What can you tell me about the connecting rods? I've been looking at NAPA online (just to get a ballpark) and they don't tell you too much. Are they forged by nature or something? or maybe lighter? i guess i'm asking why you think there'd be a benefit in using them.

Also, since these parts look pretty expensive, is there an engine code i can look for to just poach the entire engine from the salvage lot for fitment and comparison purposes? i can probably get a whole engine for the cost of one of these connecting rods...

Yep,

HSC 2300 (140) R,S or X code 84~94 FORD, LINCOLN/MERCURY
HSC 2500 (153) N code 86~92 FORD, LINCOLN/MERCURY

Those are the engine codes that should be, for my 1981 Mustang, the 7th character along the VIN, 1FABP15BXBR101037, ie B code 3.3
For an 2011 Ford Ranger 4x2 XLT 4.0L SOHC V6 has a VIN 1FTKR1EE4BPB048, ie E code 4.0

So the 7th character has to be R, S, X for any HSC equiped 84-92 F,L-M with a 2300, or N for any 86-92 F, L-M with the 2500.

The 2300 HSC years were in Tempo/Topaz/Tracer, the 2500 were mostly poverty pack Taurus Hertz rentals, and some Tempo/Topaz/Tracers.

Hope that helps. They are around, just have to see the VIN codes first on the base of the screen on the drivers side, and then delve deeper if your doing a screen test for
"Raiders of the Lost Part"

 

[xctasy]

If you've just got the buck code, you can find R,S, X and N code Tracers, Tempos, Topaz and the always at least 2500 cc Sables and Taurus, easily.


Here's an example buck code tag for an I6 Mustang...

P15BR101037 9D
BV A H JPN
L P U 1B
15R

P15BR101037 = [see VIN decode above]
BV = 3.3L I6 engine (B), C-3 transmission? (V= auto)
A = air conditioner
H
JPN = exported to Japan
L
P
U
1B
15R = [combination of body codes "15" (VIN) and "61R" (door tag)]

And one for the an 85 Tempo GLS.



66M 0162 S288210
. WB DF
RM . PW
. 3Y


Its a Manual trans R code, M=manual

Your looking for an R, S, X or N code

 

[xctasy]

What can you tell me about the connecting rods? I've been looking at NAPA online (just to get a ballpark) and they don't tell you too much. Are they forged by nature or something? or maybe lighter? i guess i'm asking why you think there'd be a benefit in using them.

Also, since these parts look pretty expensive, is there an engine code i can look for to just poach the entire engine from the salvage lot for fitment and comparison purposes? i can probably get a whole engine for the cost of one of these connecting rods...

The rods on four cylinders and the pistons, have to be much heavier duty than the I6 items due to power per cylinder. 2.3's are 5.45", but the 2.5liter rods are 6.00" centre to centre, rods are forged as far as I know, and same as the 6.06" non turbo Aussie 4.0 OHC/DOHC after 1998 till date. Wrist pins and crank pin diameters are the same as any 1960-1983 I6, and the 1976-1992 X-flows and 1988-1998 over head cam 3.2 and 3.9's.

 

[Invectivus]

sounds good, and thanks for the info. i'll look for whole N codes or just the timing/tensioner sets on the R, S, or X codes.

 

[xctasy]

Bump up.
Here is the info on the 46 link half inch pitch HSC timing chain again. As far as I can tell, the 188/221/250 and 2300/2500 inline engines all have the same cam to crank center spacing, so there are five options for timing chain or gears, some require the crank snout is to be turned down to suit.

The stock 250 US crank has the Windsor 221/255/260/289/302/351 and 335/385 series 351C and 429/460 crank snout of about 1.375, while the Aussie 221 and 250 I6 has the same crank snout diameter as the 144/170/187/200. That's a nominal 1.244 less a tolerance, similar to the small block Chevy V8 which is 1.255".

We have the US 250 56 link 1 and 0.625" wide 42/21 teeth system
The US 144/170/200 50 link 42/21 system
The Aussie 200/250 52 link 42/21 system
Does 10's 56 link, 42/21 teeth system
Balldricks Ridgecrest Gear drive
And now the HSC 46 link 34/17 system



Anyone been able to use the HSC 2300 or 2500 gear on a 250 I6?

 

[Invectivus]

Thanks for the reminder, I've bedn both poor and busy (as well as forgetful). I'm working this week but don't have appoinments, and might be able to scope the yards.

 

[mike1157]

What can you tell me about the connecting rods? I've been looking at NAPA online (just to get a ballpark) and they don't tell you too much. Are they forged by nature or something? or maybe lighter? i guess i'm asking why you think there'd be a benefit in using them.

Also, since these parts look pretty expensive, is there an engine code i can look for to just poach the entire engine from the salvage lot for fitment and comparison purposes? i can probably get a whole engine for the cost of one of these connecting rods...

The rods on four cylinders and the pistons, have to be much heavier duty than the I6 items due to power per cylinder. 2.3's are 5.45", but the 2.5liter rods are 6.00" centre to centre, rods are forged as far as I know, and same as the 6.06" non turbo Aussie 4.0 OHC/DOHC after 1998 till date. Wrist pins and crank pin diameters are the same as any 1960-1983 I6, and the 1976-1992 X-flows and 1988-1998 over head cam 3.2 and 3.9's.

Ok, I just checked availability on the 2.5 rods reconditioned, and they are out there for around 32.00 ea. The thing I cannot find is the big end cap width as compared to the stock 250 rod. I like the prospect of the longer rod, and understand that it should be stronger than my stocker, but how can I find out definitively whether or not it's forged?

 

[Econoline]

the parting line is wide on a forged rod, I believe the rods in my 70 250 are forged.

 

[xctasy]

Ok, I just checked availability on the 2.5 rods reconditioned, and they are out there for around 32.00 ea. The thing I cannot find is the big end cap width as compared to the stock 250 rod. I like the prospect of the longer rod, and understand that it should be stronger than my stocker, but how can I find out definitively whether or not it's forged?

Take em!I'll bet they are exactly the same. Its everything else that changed (flywheel, timing chain, port sequence and ports and chamber and TFi ignition). Each was made for For cost reduction reasons, the HSC was the cheapest engine to make.

I won't tell you I use factory Ford conrods which came from Nissan on an Aussie market Z 2.4 engine. That allows you to use DOHC Turbo Falcon CP pistons with there small wrist pin, Chevy 4200 DOHC liners.

The Falcon XR6 and F6 Turbo conrods have nearly the same centre spacings as the HSC 2.5 rods, 6.06" vs 6.00". But since the US 250 has a deck height 0.249" taller than the DOHC Falcon, the short deck 1.1629" CP pistons mates with the 6.35" rod and 3.91" stroke to form a prefect O deck.

 

[mike1157]

Ok, I just checked availability on the 2.5 rods reconditioned, and they are out there for around 32.00 ea. The thing I cannot find is the big end cap width as compared to the stock 250 rod. I like the prospect of the longer rod, and understand that it should be stronger than my stocker, but how can I find out definitively whether or not it's forged?

Take em!I'll bet they are exactly the same. Its everything else that changed (flywheel, timing chain, port sequence and ports and chamber and TFi ignition). Each was made for For cost reduction reasons, the HSC was the cheapest engine to make.

I won't tell you I use factory Ford conrods which came from Nissan on an Aussie market Z 2.4 engine. That allows you to use DOHC Turbo Falcon CP pistons with there small wrist pin, Chevy 4200 DOHC liners

.

You just did.

The Falcon XR6 and F6 Turbo conrods have nearly the same centre spacings as the HSC 2.5 rods, 6.06" vs 6.00". But since the US 250 has a deck height 0.249" taller than the DOHC Falcon, the short deck 1.1629" CP pistons mates with the 6.35" rod and 3.91" stroke to form a prefect O deck.

Now I'm confused....How did the rod go from 6.06 to 6.35? (Or is that the Jap-o-Aussie market Z 24 mystery engine rod length?
)

I tell ya,...thinks must be different in NZ,....but when I look up "CP piston for Falcon Turbo"....I get this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CP-FORGED-PI ... 1018243403
In the US,...that is Damn expensive,...considering the reason for using that piston would be to be able to cheap out on a set of connecting rods out of some ambiguous mystery Ford engine that was really a 250 w/ two additional cylinders sawn off.

Connecting rods have always been a point of contention for me....The reason I'd want to use the HSC 2.5 rod would be to increase the length of the rod, ( resources I use list the 2.5 rod as 5.990), while getting a superior casting/forging for strength.
That rod will have to get bushed to allow the pin to float, and I'll use the Racetec pistons I can buy direct for the $690.00 for the set with pins I was quoted. ( A "Smokin' deal", And really, since they are completely custom, It doesn't matter how long the rod is.)
I guess I'll go to my local engine parts supplier downtown tomorrow and pick one up to compare.
I'll post a comparison pic tomorrow night.

 

[xctasy]

Aw sorry. Does 10's uses the Modular 5.4 rod, which is about that size. I totally forgot that there were some liberties I took in using Nissan rods...they are actually 6.5" inch, like the old Astron 80/Mistsubishi 2555 cc rods, but are 1.96" journal, so I de-stroke the EF 12 counterweight crank to 3.75", and the Aussie 250 deck height is amped up from 9.38" 200/250 Aussie to 9.54". Having an engine down 17 cubes from 250 isn't a problem when you have the best components money can buy... on a performance per dollar basis, those CP pistons cannot be beaten, especially when you consider what an F6 Barra 270 or 315 engine can do with a boost upgrade. The pistons in the link are 20 thou over at 3.652", I use stock size, and don't overbore the stock liner. They are 28 thou under the stock 188/200/221/250 bore.

The FAZER engines run a 158 thou steel block topping spacer to allow the non standard non cross flow head fit the cross flow block. That makes the Nissan rod, OHC 4.0 crank and Chevy Trailblazer 4200 style liner combo fit the component, with the best piston, wall thickness, spark free rings, best rod and best crank and bore to stoke ratio, plus the old block becomes practically eternal...its doubtful you'd ever have to find another block even if you had a torch down with a sleeved 3.632" bore block with its nice.


Back to where the Aussie X-flows went when they became 3.9 liter (3939 cc) OHC engines in 1988, they reduced the bore to 3.612", and dropped the deck a quarter of an inch from the US 250, and 160 thou from the Aussie 250. From 1993, they ran a 20 thou over 3.632" piston. Despite its size of 4 liters (3983 cc), the 3.632" bore 243 cubic inch Ford OHC engine from 1993 to date has started to look more like the last inline Nissan 26DETT every year, especially when the turbo came out in 2003, it started to get better rods in the later versions with the pin size down from 0.9112 to 0.866. This allowed the short piston to be more of a big bore Z eries 240SX/ R -series I6 Skyline, Stagea/E series Subaru RS/ WRX/STI knock off. In fact, Nismo's 1600 hp 4.0 XR6 Turbo engine has a sleeved front cylinder, a set of Chevy 6 inch SBC rods, forged pistons, and 'gasp, Japanese Subaru rings.

That means that as you sail through the changes, you can pick up mutually beneficial changes with each hard component size change.

The after market 240 SX Turbos ran some of the best rods around, and the size were 6.5" in the 240SX-S13-S14-KA24-KA24e-KA24DE

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-H-Beam-Co ... 0705723545


Back to the details on the HSC 2500 rod. On a dollar per power basis, the 5.99" Ford rod would be mondo tough.

 

[comet6]

Bump up.
Here is the info on the 46 link half inch pitch HSC timing chain again. As far as I can tell, the 188/221/250 and 2300/2500 inline engines all have the same cam to crank center spacing, so there are five options for timing chain or gears, some require the crank snout is to be turned down to suit.

The stock 250 US crank has the Windsor 221/255/260/289/302/351 and 335/385 series 351C and 429/460 crank snout of about 1.375, while the Aussie 221 and 250 I6 has the same crank snout diameter as the 144/170/187/200. That's a nominal 1.244 less a tolerance, similar to the small block Chevy V8 which is 1.255".

We have the US 250 56 link 1 and 0.625" wide 42/21 teeth system
The US 144/170/200 50 link 42/21 system
The Aussie 200/250 52 link 42/21 system
Does 10's 56 link, 42/21 teeth system
Balldricks Ridgecrest Gear drive
And now the HSC 46 link 34/17 system



Anyone been able to use the HSC 2300 or 2500 gear on a 250 I6?

Did anyone try the 2.5 HSC chain on a US 250 ?
Rockauto shows the set to be a 18/36 sprocket with 46 link chain. Problem is the crank sprocket is 1.25". I would be more interested in trying to fit only the tensioner where rubbing block is.