Weber 38/38 DGS and various Distributors

[Frank]

I also had some other parts suppliers send me .020, or .001, sized bearing instead of STD

Glad you paid attention! I went thru this same thing with a '59 Rambler flathead 6. They sent .001. Said, "well, we're out of standard, these will usually work on a worn crank." No sir, they won't.
Ebay is a great source for NOS, that's a good find. Old Federal Mogul bearings are the best. In the above debacle, I eventually found NOS original AMC factory bearings for that engine on ebay. The boxes were falling apart with age, the bearings- perfect.

 

[awasson]

Thanks!. Where did you get your spacer from?

I got mine from this guy on EBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192096681116

Worth every penny.

 

[Sickboy49]

I got mine from this guy on EBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192096681116

Worth every penny.

Thank you!

 

[Sickboy49]

Got the motor installed in the car on Sunday. I got it fired up but realized I was off a tooth on the distributor. Last night I corrected that and she is running a lot better then before. I am still dialing it in because I found the throttle was binding a little bit and would not fully shut. I am correcting that sometime this week. From the testing last night it looks as though I should be able to get the 32/36 within spec. I may need to bump up the idle jet but I will only be able to determine that after dialing it in some more. The engine is running a lot smoother, and I am able to keep the timing within reason (10 to 12 degrees initial). Bonus points... no leaks anywhere!

 

[Sickboy49]

Siiiiigh..... back to the drawing board. I can't get it to idle within the Weber specs. I am calling around to different shops to get it tuned.

 

[awasson]

Is that a Weber 32/36 and is it one from Clifford, jetted for the Inline-6?

I ask because those carbs are put on everything from Jeeps to Mazda B2200's to BMW2002's and each has some variation in jetting. For the Clifford one that's set up for a Ford 6-200, it should be a matter of dialling in the idle/air and the idle jet.

The 38/38 version is slightly different because it has 2 idle jets and it comes off the idle circuit earlier than the 32/36 but the basic workflow is the same:

* It took a while for me to get mine right dialled in and it only was 1/8 of a turn from too rich to where it is now and that took a while to get 100% right. I changed the idle jets on mine back and forth a few times before getting back to the ones it shipped with. I took notes of every time I adjusted it and that was helpful to review.

* The engine needs to be at normal temp and for mine that means I have to drive it for about 15 - 20 minutes. It takes a long time to get to normal operating temp even though the gauge was at temp within about 5 minutes.

* You probably know the process like the back of your hand but in case something is missing this is how I approach it.

• For a 32/36, back out the the idle speed screw so it is just touching the lever, then turn it in another 1 to 1.5 turns. No more than 1.5 turns so it doesn't come off the idle circuit.
• Set the mixture screw to a baseline of 2 turns out from being just lightly seated.
• It should now be capable of holding some sort of idle. Best case is that it's running rich but pretty smooth. Let me know if you can get it running on the base settings because everything after depends on it.
• Turn the air idle screw in slowly until it stumbles then in small increments back it out until it runs the smoothes and fastest again. On my 38/38, I turn it 1/8 of a turn and listen, if it's not quite right, it goes out another 1/8 of a turn in whichever direction improves it.

If you need to back the idle/air mixture screw out more than 2 turns then you'll need to look at putting a larger idle jet in.

If now you've got it dialled in but it idles too fast, you can back the idle speed screw out until it's where you want it. Mine idles noticeably slower when it's cold and because of the cam I'm running, it gets really choppy when it's cold so I have my idle set to about 800 - 900 RPM when it hot which is about 500 - 600 RPM when it's cold.

On my 38/38, I managed to get the idle mixture right on the money at 3/4 of a turn out after quite a number of sessions adjusting it.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[Sickboy49]

Is that a Weber 32/36 and is it one from Clifford, jetted for the Inline-6?

I ask because those carbs are put on everything from Jeeps to Mazda B2200's to BMW2002's and each has some variation in jetting. For the Clifford one that's set up for a Ford 6-200, it should be a matter of dialling in the idle/air and the idle jet.

The 38/38 version is slightly different because it has 2 idle jets and it comes off the idle circuit earlier than the 32/36 but the basic workflow is the same:

* It took a while for me to get mine right dialled in and it only was 1/8 of a turn from too rich to where it is now and that took a while to get 100% right. I changed the idle jets on mine back and forth a few times before getting back to the ones it shipped with. I took notes of every time I adjusted it and that was helpful to review.

* The engine needs to be at normal temp and for mine that means I have to drive it for about 15 - 20 minutes. It takes a long time to get to normal operating temp even though the gauge was at temp within about 5 minutes.

* You probably know the process like the back of your hand but in case something is missing this is how I approach it.

• For a 32/36, back out the the idle speed screw so it is just touching the lever, then turn it in another 1 to 1.5 turns. No more than 1.5 turns so it doesn't come off the idle circuit.
• Set the mixture screw to a baseline of 2 turns out from being just lightly seated.
• It should now be capable of holding some sort of idle. Best case is that it's running rich but pretty smooth. Let me know if you can get it running on the base settings because everything after depends on it.
• Turn the air idle screw in slowly until it stumbles then in small increments back it out until it runs the smoothes and fastest again. On my 38/38, I turn it 1/8 of a turn and listen, if it's not quite right, it goes out another 1/8 of a turn in whichever direction improves it.

If you need to back the idle/air mixture screw out more than 2 turns then you'll need to look at putting a larger idle jet in.

If now you've got it dialled in but it idles too fast, you can back the idle speed screw out until it's where you want it. Mine idles noticeably slower when it's cold and because of the cam I'm running, it gets really choppy when it's cold so I have my idle set to about 800 - 900 RPM when it hot which is about 500 - 600 RPM when it's cold.

On my 38/38, I managed to get the idle mixture right on the money at 3/4 of a turn out after quite a number of sessions adjusting it.

Hopefully that helps.

Thank you for the post. I have tried everything. I even had a 38/38 on it for a while, but the same condition persisted. I cannot to get it to idle within the weber spec even after increasing jet sizes. That is why I went to the 32/36 because there is only one mixture screw to deal with (and jet). It goes into a local shop on Friday. I might tinker with it some more this week, but I am overly frustrated by the situation. FYI - both carbs were bought independently of Clifford.

 

[awasson]

Ok, so the carbs should be pretty much plug and play. The only other items I can think would mess with it are:

• If the ported vacuum isn't connected to the distributor or plugged off.
• If the appropriate fuel regulator isn't inline and set to ~ 4lbs
• If they have an electric choke and it's not energized when the engine is running; the butterflies may remain closed when they should be open.

If I can think of anything else, I'll jump in again. Frustrating after all of the effort you've put in but you'll get there.

 

[Frank]

Gentle reminder- this is not a log intake "small6", rather a 223 in a large car, with a performance intake and headers.

 

[Sickboy49]

I wanted to give you guys an update even though it is not really good news. The shop where my car is at currently can't seems to figure out the problem. It is like the engine is not getting enough air. They have one more test to go basically seeing where the AFR ratio is at normal RPM and then when it is at idle (before it dies around 1,000 RPM). I am considering having them drilling a hole in the primary butterfly (I ordered a spare) to see what happens. I am trying to make an appointment for this spring with another shop that specifically knows webers. We will see what happens with the current shop, and I will keep you posted.

 

[Sickboy49]

So this upcoming week the second shop should be giving me a call to schedule an appointment to work on the carb issue. Over the winter I have been pondering this, so bare with me and my ramblings.
1. I can't believe 3 separate weber carbs are faulty, but stranger things have happened.
2. Also the current shop checked the compression a on all six cylinders and found that it they are only reading 85 PSI. Before I even had the motor rebuilt the best cylinder was at 115. I did not think going .40 over would reduce compression. I have been looking this up on the internet and it seems everyone has an opinion. I think this may explain why the motor is not sucking enough air through the carb. Thoughts?
3. This question/statement deals with quench and head gasket. Does anyone know of the head bolt holes in the block are blind or open ended? I read that the bolts on the driver side go through the water jacket, so I am assuming the are blind. I am traveling down this path because the first two Fel-Pro head gaskets would not seal completely. I have to check my notes from the original engine builder but I think he took .10 off the head and .20 off the block. If those head bolt holes are blind and the length of the bolt bottoms out in the block that means the head is not actually tight enough on the block. Would this cause the low PSI per cylinder as it would allow pressure in the cylinder to leak?

 

[Frank]

So this upcoming week the second shop should be giving me a call to schedule an appointment to work on the carb issue. Over the winter I have been pondering this, so bare with me and my ramblings.
1. I can't believe 3 separate weber carbs are faulty, but stranger things have happened.
2. Also the current shop checked the compression a on all six cylinders and found that it they are only reading 85 PSI. Before I even had the motor rebuilt the best cylinder was at 115. I did not think going .40 over would reduce compression. I have been looking this up on the internet and it seems everyone has an opinion. I think this may explain why the motor is not sucking enough air through the carb. Thoughts?
3. This question/statement deals with quench and head gasket. Does anyone know of the head bolt holes in the block are blind or open ended? I read that the bolts on the driver side go through the water jacket, so I am assuming the are blind. I am traveling down this path because the first two Fel-Pro head gaskets would not seal completely. I have to check my notes from the original engine builder but I think he took .10 off the head and .20 off the block. If those head bolt holes are blind and the length of the bolt bottoms out in the block that means the head is not actually tight enough on the block. Would this cause the low PSI per cylinder as it would allow pressure in the cylinder to leak?

Hey '49- good to hear from 'ya. Larger pistons with all else equal raises compression very slightly. There can be a link between low compression readings and poor/impossible idle quality. The low compression may be caused by late camshaft timing. If so then the airflow into the cylinders is off, and vacuum will be low- the assessment in your last post would be correct, the engine is not getting enough air. A large intake increases the negative effect of late valve timing.
Lately, every build on here- all of them- the cam timing is not correct when installed dot-to-dot. The latest the cam was 17* retarded. Sounds like your engine may be also. I'd recommend having them check the valve timing, for sure. Especially if all cylinders had the same low 85psi reading- that points to camshaft timing as a possible (probable) cause.

 

[Sickboy49]

Hey '49- good to hear from 'ya. Larger pistons with all else equal raises compression very slightly. There can be a link between low compression readings and poor/impossible idle quality. The low compression may be caused by late camshaft timing. If so then the airflow into the cylinders is off, and vacuum will be low- the assessment in your last post would be correct, the engine is not getting enough air. A large intake increases the negative effect of late valve timing.
Lately, every build on here- all of them- the cam timing is not correct when installed dot-to-dot. The latest the cam was 17* retarded. Sounds like your engine may be also. I'd recommend having them check the valve timing, for sure. Especially if all cylinders had the same low 85psi reading- that points to camshaft timing as a possible (probable) cause.

Thank you very much for that! I have been wrapping myself around the axle thinking about this.

 

[Sickboy49]

So I guess the shop manual is wrong. For 223's the dots are about 2 'o clock with 13 links in between. Very interesting.... I will definitely have the current shop check that. Thank you again Frank.

 

[Frank]

So I guess the shop manual is wrong. For 223's the dots are about 2 'o clock with 13 links in between. Very interesting.... I will definitely have the current shop check that. Thank you again Frank.

It must be done with a degree wheel and dial indicator. Counting links/dots will not be accurate.

 

[Adriatic Machine]

Yea they share the timing set with the Y-Block V-8s. Dot to dot is for a V8 and the 223 gets the blue link special.

.020” sounds like a lot to remove from the block deck, I think we only shaved around .003” on mine. Even still, .020” is less than half a thread lengthwise so the bolt would go down less than half a turn deeper than stock.

I think @Frank has it figured out regarding cam timing and low compression, especially since the numbers are consistent.