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My Budget 250 build

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lavron
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My Budget 250 build

Post #1 by lavron » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:22 pm

I have been scouring the forum looking for how folks have been dealing with 250 deck height issues and have a few questions.

First I want to reiterate what my end goal is and the means that I am attempting to get there - I want a dependable build that utilizes fairly commonly available parts, this would be, initially, the parts that are most prone to failure (starters, ignition, pumps, etc.) followed by major components that may need replaced in the future (brakes, clutch, etc) I am looking for a road car the can fairly dependably make a 1,500 mile trip with out too much concern, I would like a well performing car but not high performance (it will never see a drag strip or most likely any form of performance competition). I am attempting to get there on a low budget, mostly as a proof in concept that it can be done.

With that said I understand there are certain things that cause the budget to be higher like using the 250 when a SBF would have been way cheaper and easier, but these are personal preferences because they are what I want :P

With these things in mind I am currently looking at deck height issues, while I know I could leave well enough alone and go all stock Ford 250 rebuild parts, but I would like to make it a bit better in the performance arena if I can without causing much issue.

First off, I need to bore and deck the block anyway (engine has neither been bored or decked in the past) so I will be replacing pistons, I think a .020 overbore will work but may be a .030 - I have been looking at the Oz 250 pistons 3328H, Summit lists them for $150 a set (not sure this is the cheapest place) and RockAuto list stock 30 over pistons for $130 a set, this is pretty much a wash in price. So basically I could get the piston .030 higher up in the bore. I know about the 255-V8 pistons but they are over $200 a set and I can't find rings for them hardly (unless they use 200-250 rings?)

What is a safe number to deck the 250 Block, it seems .030 - .040 is fairly common?

I know I won't achieve the desired zero deck height but I can bring it down some, it this a help or just as well leaving it stock?

I also have the forged stocks rods for what it is worth :roll:

I know you guys have been on me to CC my head chambers and I will eventually get the stuff together and get it done, I just haven't had a chance yet.

Anyway I will start there on just those 2 things :P

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #2 by xctasy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:26 am

The US 250 deck height was 9.469 vs 9.38" in the Australian 250.

US 250 shortfall to deck varies between 103 to sometimes 123 thou, but the Aussie to US difference is 89 thou.

This shortfall was the right move for the new plans to go to lower compression engines with higher weight compacts now becoming heavy intermediates, like the formely 2300 pound round body Falcon becoming a 3200 pound Torino unibody, then a 4200 pound perimeter frame intermediate Gran Torino, often in ever popluar Station Wagon form.

Teh 250 was a go to gap filler for when you couldn't get 351 Cleveland, 351M, 400 Ford, or Windsor 351's or 302 Windsors. A low cost, low compression ploddder, which could take all the V8 gearbox options.

It only had 95 to 99 hp net, but pulled around those behemouths.

Just like the old 3.8 and 4.2 V6's and the ill fated 255/4.2 V8, it was a typical "lets use other stuff in a plain wapper base to save costs"

It was HFII's master stroke to reduce costs and fill gaps in the market.

Image

Image

Image


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... p=88171378

It allowed a no cost extra to use the same pistons 1.500 or 1.531 piston deck as the 200.

In Australia, the dish was 200 was the same as the US 200/250, the 221 8.425" deck, same as US 200/250, but the Aussie 250, was either 15.6 or 22.9 or 27.9 cc.

Soooo....

The stock aftermarket high performance 250 Piston in Australia was the US 200/250 piston in either was 5.5, or 8.5 cc, but with improved Hypereutectic construction, and a better skirt design so it wouldn't fly appart. We had access to 95 octane unleaded after 97 octane leaded was withdrawn, so the gas situation isn't the same as with 87 and 91 Octane unleaded you guys use.

The solution is 89 thou longer than the stock 5.885" conrods. An 1986 to 1992 domestic Taurus/Sable con rod cna be resized to become a 5.974" Rod, Before resizing, they were 6.000" blue printed 2.5 Liter HSC/HSO Taurus 4 cylinder.

Good luck finding six of those, but YRMV.

The 1988 to 2017 6.06" I6's rods.

The Aussie 4.0 liter EL2 or AU SOHC /Aussie 4.0 liter BA in line DOHC6.06" rods with either the thickest head gasket you can find would work with a 1.500" 200 or 250 pistons decked a little.

Or 89 thou taller than stock 1.531" pistions. Traget depth 1.620", custom made by Racetek pistons, and you'd use the good 5.885" forged steel 250 US conrods, not the later D8 1978 onwards cast iron rods.

mike1157 is in this same situation now. He got really low deck IIRC 1.455" Racetek Forged pistons made up to suit 5.885" cast iron D8 rods, and he's running them with 12 pounds boost and probably well over 400 hp net flywheel in his Turbo 250 Fairmont Glia Monster. He's planning to get custom con rods made. He always planned to "Do it Twice Mike", and a well machined cast iron conrod can survive, its not the best option, but his engine was always a work in progress. Most 250's have cast iron rods, just the last 3 years, 78, 79 and 80 didn't, and possibly some 76-77's might have had the down grade.

Ford Sedan Delivery just used the stock parts 3 carb Offy 250 Ford engine he sold to another board member here. It used a decked early Large runner C9 170 Maverick head 120 thou, which was just about the time Ford downgraded the casting thicknesses to 187 nominal.

Had the block decked 120 thou, and got his car into the low 14's with stock cast pistons.

You'll go over the options, and find a solution. My suggestions? Do what Mike1157 or FSD did. There is a risk when you take too much metal off, and there is a cost if you use Forged custom pistons. But if the engineering is good, you can do other stuff.

Econoline also uses stock cast 2.3 HSC or 2.5 HSO pistons, CNC shaved and milled to a 9 to 11 cc dish, and thats the dreaded 90 thou offset Silvolite piston that some have trouble with. Yet Does10's (Will and Kelly) did 10 second 1/4 miles with in in a 425 rear wheel hp Falcon.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #3 by powerband » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:57 am

I have been scouring the forum looking for how folks have been dealing with 250 deck height issues\

The vintage Clifford built 250 I've been driving for @ 10 years all over the NE ( including LV dragstrip occasionaly), has an overbore of .070 and uses stock STD bore AMC/Intl 258 pistons for a zero deck height with shot peened 250 rods opened up to the 258's (+.019 ) pin size.

... the pistons are TRW/SealedPower # 470NP's. The application is 79-89 AMC 4.2 (258).

Ford 250: bore = 3.68 / comp distance = 1.5 / dish volume = 13cc
AMC 258: bore = 3.75 / comp distance = 1.633 / D-Sump = .178(?)

This puts the bore at @ .070 over and raise the piston toward the deck .133 . The specs list the pin diameter of the ford at .9122 and the AMC's at .9310 which can easily be accommodated.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For a 'budget build' with a different approach. here's an excerpt from my forum discussions with Dave Schjehldahl :

Wow!!! Thanks for sharing that discovery. I did a quick search on the Silvolite website and found a similiar piston. It is part #2227. They list the cc volume of the recess at 21ccs- which makes it ideal for this application. It lists the depth of the recess at .185".

With the .070" overbore the bore is 3.75", stroke of 3.91, a Felpro head gasket at .050", a zero deck height, chamber volume of 60ccs and a piston recess of 21 ccs, gives an ideal street compression ratio of 8.8:1!!!

And, the recess is not "D" shaped, but appears to more closely mirror the shape of the combustion chamber of a small ford six. The dish is more of a bathtub shape.

This piston has got to be more accessible to obtain than the 2.5 HSC rod route I've been pursuing.

Thanks for the tip.
Adios, David

The 250 was built many years ago in the Clifford shop while Jack still ran it, and built for a Maverick application but mothballed in original crate and protectively sealed until I purchased for the original speed and modified parts. After bore-scoping and investigating internals with my machinist, it was installed and fired up. The Clifford built 250 in the '61 Comet has run like a Hybrid for over ten years - it burns both gas and rubber ...

have fun

Blueprinted D6DE Ford small block 250 Six; Shot Peened and Balanced Rods, Clifford 272H Cam, 1.88 intake valves/1.50 exh with- silicon springs and HD retainers, Ported and Polished chambers and relieved valve shrouds . Fisher custom Harmonic Balancer, Tri-Power / Offy , Modified Holley 1904 glass bowl carbs, Exhaust ¾ siamese port divider, Re-Curved distributor, HEI ignition, Indexed Champion plugs,s, Glyptal sealed block, Detroit gasket set,. SFI 157 neutral balance-lightened flywheel spinning Centerforce Clutch, T5-Z Cobra 5speed, Short throw Hurst shifter, 8”- 3.80:1 TracLoc Posi rear, Fab'd Caltrac clones, Shelby sway bars, Mustang front strut bars, Scarebird Disc front brakes, Shelby Drop UCA's and relocated LCA's, Fabricated subframe connectors / crossmembers, 8 Point roll cage, 5.0 alum. radiator, Perma-Cool fan, Holley fuel pump/pressure regulators, Hooker dual out longtube headers, Smithy silencers, Original tube radio, vacuum wipers and front fender Gunsights…
"Take time to stop and smell... The roadkill..."

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #4 by lavron » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:49 am

xctasy wrote:Good luck finding six of those, but YRMV.


What I am trying to avoid is rare hard to find parts, well mostly because that will translate to a higher price and my goal of finding off the shelf semi-common parts.

I am trying to look 10 years down the road when something possibly breaks and needs to be replaced (even though I do hope that is not a piston)

One of my other goals is to avoid custom machining parts, for one thing I am not in an area where there are local automotive machine shops, in the last several years all of them have closed down in our throw-away society.

Is it a good idea to move toward a smaller quench even though I cannot obtain the zero deck that is desired?

I just seems the 3328H would move me .030 closer and then decking .030 would trim the total of .060 off, I know it is a drop in the bucket when trying to overcome .150 of deck height but it seems that would be desirable to just rebuilding to stock, there is the 3327H as well but wasn't sure if a flattop would raise CR too much.

powerband wrote:has an overbore of .070 and uses stock STD bore AMC/Intl 258 pistons for a zero deck height with shot peened 250 rods opened up to the 258's (+.019 ) pin size.


I was a little concerned with the .070 overbore thinning my cylinder walls, but you are comfortable with that much overbore, or I guess I would say what are the downside to doing it this way? I mean I like the sound of it and this is not a daily driver but would like to be able to drive it on longish trips and don't want too many failures along the way. I am certain, at my age, the car will never see 50,000 miles on it before it becomes someone else's issue :roll:

Thanks,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #5 by lavron » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:52 am

powerband wrote:... the pistons are TRW/SealedPower # 470NP's. The application is 79-89 AMC 4.2 (258).


I do like the price :D

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #6 by powerband » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:51 am

was a little concerned with the .070 overbore thinning my cylinder walls, but you are comfortable with that much overbore, or I guess I would say what are the downside to doing it this way? I mean I like the sound of it and this is not a daily driver but would like to be able to drive it on longish trips and don't want too many failures along the way.

I can drive anywhere with the 3.80 rear/ OD T5, including interstate back and forth to the dragstrip on occasion. After @ 10 years in the Comet, last fall I blew a head gasket btween #4-5 driving to local hardware store. Looked like the Cyl head relieving/porting was a little too aggressive on the head near the block gasket circumference. Typical @ OEM chambers @62cc's, 250's cyl chamber volume measured @ 59cc's with oversize valve shroud relief' . Installed a regular Fel-Pro (@.045) HG and back to cruising this year...

I have not found any other 250 engines built with the AMC 258 pistons and remain hopeful someone has the interest to attempt similar build for comparisons .

The old Clifford shop .070 over-bore 250 , is partially a mystery. My original investigation of its origin provided hint at an off-center torque plate or selected engine blocks. The harmonic balancer seems a unique item as well as machining of the Holley carb air cleaner necks to fit standard filters and other specially machined features. Literally built ( incrementally budget building ) the 61 Comet around it ... .


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2006
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have fun



.
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #7 by Econoline » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:50 am

One thing to keep in mind is that if you ever foresee putting on one of the aluminum heads w/o reworking the short block you will need to build an engine that can use 54cc chambers or less. And with the long stroke of the 250, that is tough without having custom forged pistons made with huge dishes. Unless you can get the deck to zero I would recommend keeping the C/R below 9.3, DC/R @ 8 or below.

When you say 'dependable', does that mean daily driver? Or just rock solid? What is the use and what are your expectations for the car? Big cam high rev machine or ? Where do you want/need the powerband? Smooth idle or lumpy? Manual or automatic trans?

X doesn't have alot of faith in my milled 2.5 HSC pistons. So far so good. It's a low revving engine. Starts and drives daily. I've got about 2000 miles on it now. Been running cool with temp switch cycled electric fan in the doghouse, which is amazing. It will light up the 9" rear end on command :) The Econo aft end is light though and there are 3.7's in the rear. But with 9.6:1 C/R the engine requires high octane and still needed the vac advance limited to 10 deg and the mechanical pushed out further than what would be ideal. With the initial set to 12 deg.
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #8 by lavron » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:49 pm

Econoline wrote:When you say 'dependable', does that mean daily driver? Or just rock solid? What is the use and what are your expectations for the car? Big cam high rev machine or ? Where do you want/need the powerband? Smooth idle or lumpy? Manual or automatic trans?


lavron wrote:First I want to reiterate what my end goal is and the means that I am attempting to get there - I want a dependable build that utilizes fairly commonly available parts, this would be, initially, the parts that are most prone to failure (starters, ignition, pumps, etc.) followed by major components that may need replaced in the future (brakes, clutch, etc) I am looking for a road car the can fairly dependably make a 1,500 mile trip with out too much concern, I would like a well performing car but not high performance (it will never see a drag strip or most likely any form of performance competition). I am attempting to get there on a low budget, mostly as a proof in concept that it can be done.


To add to that; Not a DD, I have another post on cam choices I have not made that decision yet, but not a big cam or a high rev motor, I figure on mostly open road driving, I have a dual out PaceSetter header (that I hope will clear the starter), and finally the engine will have dual 2 barrel Motorcraft 5740s semi-direct mounted to a '72 flat log 200 head that may get '78+ intake valves installed in it, the transmission is a '98 Mustang V6 T5, and it will have a 8.8LSD 3.73 from a '98 Explorer and not that it makes a bit difference to the motor it will have air ride :P

The only "options" I am looking to do is to add one of the AC systems like Classic Air.

Seth I did read your build and learned, hopefully, something from your experiences, I don't know if you have done so already but it would be nice to see a little follow up (on your build thread) on things you have learned since driving it, it seems to me to end abruptly :roll: at least last time I looked at it.

Thanks guys for any information and if I ever get this build rolling along I will share what I learn.

powerband wrote:I have not found any other 250 engines built with the AMC 258 pistons and remain hopeful someone has the interest to attempt similar build for comparisons .


You are working toward convincing me to give it a try :P So far the only added expense I see is reaming the rod holes out, not sure what that would cost but I can't think very much. Plus I can get a set of pistons for under $90 that has great appeal to me :roll:

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #9 by xctasy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:15 am

Have the block decked 103 thou then. Use the Aussie destined, American made piston with the right dish for your desired compression ratio.

Becarefull with the stud to front water pump impellor intersection point...cut down an ARP stud after a trial fit at the new 9.366" deck.

This is since all haskets will be 41 thou or more.

Choice is yours. Cost of potential resleaving exists with all late 1969 small six blocks. powerbands engine is a C8, an early 250, IIRC.

Not worth running 70 thou pistons on post 1969 model year 250's, they are shell moulded castings at the pistons.

Mike1157 resleaved the block on his 78 Maverick engine.


I understand budgets and desires. You'll need 62.5, 100 or 125 thou shorter pushrods. Its all easy to do.



Econoline wrote:.....

X doesn't have alot of faith in my milled 2.5 HSC pistons. So far so good. It's a low revving engine. Starts and drives daily. I've got about 2000 miles on it now. Been running cool with temp switch cycled electric fan in the doghouse, which is amazing. It will light up the 9" rear end on command :) The Econo aft end is light though and there are 3.7's in the rear. But with 9.6:1 C/R the engine requires high octane and still needed the vac advance limited to 10 deg and the mechanical pushed out further than what would be ideal. With the initial set to 12 deg.


I love the idea of HSC's and HSO cast pistons, they should work fine if clearance is right, but they do have a greater gugeon pin offset. Just I've been here 15 years, and seen four engines junked with those pistons. Mustangaroo had issues, his son Jason, technically Does10s although he's on record for sayin it was a frozen wrist pin and it was okay at 20 psi boost, and there was Parkwood60. There were some others, can't remember the names and applications.

255 pistons I like too, but you know, YRMV.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #10 by lavron » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:48 am

My Block is definitely not a C8 block

Image

Is there a way to check the thickness of the deck? And taking .103" won't thin the deck too much?

With my measurements on all the old parts in the engine, I do not think (near positive) the deck has ever been cut, I was getting .150" deck height and my bores were all measuring standard.

Am I correct :roll: that there is 3 different Aussie Pistons and the difference is recess size (or the lack there of) ? The 3328H, 3332H and the flat top 3327H.

And I guess I will ask this because you mentioned it, are the ARP Studs the way to go, I was considering them?

Thanks for the info guys keep the suggestions coming they do really help me.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Budget 250 from skratch

Post #11 by chad » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:58 am

they stress need of using the APR rod bolts around here...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Budget 250 from skratch

Post #12 by RichCreations » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:49 pm

chad wrote:they stress need of using the APR rod bolts around here...

yeah the stock ones are the weakest point in the engine...

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #13 by lavron » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:03 pm

Yes I intended to replace the rod bolts.

See Ya,
Mike
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #14 by xctasy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:48 pm

powerband wrote:......



Image

have fun


Ah D7 BE block. That's why you could go 70 thou, PB.....
Thicker wall construction than the Cleveland plant engines after 1969.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #15 by xctasy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:53 pm

lavron wrote:My Block is definitely not a C8 block

Image

Is there a way to check the thickness of the deck? And taking .103" won't thin the deck too much?

With my measurements on all the old parts in the engine, I do not think (near positive) the deck has ever been cut, I was getting .150" deck height and my bores were all measuring standard.

Am I correct :roll: that there is 3 different Aussie Pistons and the difference is recess size (or the lack there of) ? The 3328H, 3332H and the flat top 3327H.

And I guess I will ask this because you mentioned it, are the ARP Studs the way to go, I was considering them?

Thanks for the info guys keep the suggestions coming they do really help me.

See Ya,
Mike



A cover meter or sonar depth gauge will do everything with a great chance of success. You can hard fill the block with cement grout if you get nervous.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76986
xctasy wrote:According to Ak Miller and the details on the new shell moulding processes at the Cleveland plant, after 1969, Ford started downgrading the iron thickness. For early heads, 90 thou is the practical limit, but you can go to 120 thou like FalconSedanDelivery did on both his head casting, and the block deck. Rocker geometry then has to be checked and adjusted.

After 1969, the average casting droped to 187 thou bluenprint at the Cleveland foundary, and for cylinder bores, they shell moulded down to 130 thou. Great if your making them, not so good if your reconditioning. Compared to a Chevy 283 or early small journal 327, the heads measure 242 thou everywhere,

Image


with no less than 180 thou in the working face of the cylinder bore. Ford used to make engines like that, Y blocks, I blocks, FE's. Lima MEL 430 and 462's.....it wasn't a cost cutting measure made until Ford won LeMans, and then it came time to pay the rent. Less iron less cost. Its not an issue unless you really need a lot of compression.


60 thou for head planing for C9 heads to E1 heads, and 30 thou for overboring blocks. The 250 always had a lot of deck height, you can cut em down 120 thou, but block cracks around the head studs can occur unless some stress reliving is done.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #16 by lavron » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:08 pm

xctasy wrote:You can hard fill the block with cement grout if you get nervous.


Guess I don't know what that is, you will have to excuse me for being ignorant on this.

xctasy wrote:but block cracks around the head studs can occur unless some stress reliving is done.


What is the stress relieving process?

Sorry if I am asking dumb questions.

See Ya,
Mike
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #17 by lavron » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:18 am

So if one had 6 2.7 HSC rods what piston do you use, the stock 250 piston?

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #18 by xctasy » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:27 am

lavron wrote:
xctasy wrote:You can hard fill the block with cement grout if you get nervous.


Guess I don't know what that is, you will have to excuse me for being ignorant on this.


Its called Hard Filling the cylinder block. Mike1157 did it to his 250. You mix up standard aftermarket cememt grout called HardFill,which has a 25 MPa rating or greater, and pour it into your block to add strenth into the bottom of the cylinder walls. A normal 250 has perhaps a 10 quart water capacity, adding HardFill might fill up 1/3 to even half of the water cooling capacity in the block. The metal that comes off during the milling process is replaced with cement. In your case, you'd pop in some plastic hole gromets or water proof ProMerseal, and turn the block upside down, and grout the underside of the head gasket face to add strenght to the decked block to head face.

Cement and steel have exactly the same co-efficient of expansion, so when heated up, the two dis-similar materails have a constant affinity for one another.

xctasy wrote:but block cracks around the head studs can occur unless some stress reliving is done.


What is the stress relieving process?

Sorry if I am asking dumb questions.

See Ya,
Mike


Point 1 stress relieving process

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74583&p=573513#p573513
old jupiter wrote:From the late great Joe Mondello:

http://mondello.com/page23.html

We've all heard the stories about how Packard and other top-end carmakers of the Thirties used to leave their raw castings out in the weather for a year to get some thermal cycling and stress relief before machining. And long service in a vehicle is supposed to do this as well. One thing I found surprising (and evidently Joe did as well) was the amount of stress-relieving and "moving around" that he found even in block and head castings that had been seasoned by years of thermal-cycling and vibration in passenger vehicles before being stripped and re-machined for hot-rodding and racing use. Since he built fixtures to hold crankshafts for shaking (and freezing), apparently those parts also come out of street machines still having some locked-in stresses. (As always, how much are you willing to spend?).

There's a conversation in another place on whether 300 EFI heads are particularly prone to cracking. Seems to me that if you find a used EFI head that passes pressure-testing, et al, once you do a little hand-detailing to chamfer sharp edges, this is one part that maybe should take a ride on the shaker table (and then get re-tested) before you do final re-machining, valve-grind, porting, etc.. Again, this costs money, but might be worth some piece of mind for any part that seems to have a marginal reputation. What do you smart guys think? Flyer?

Here, read this one too. The owner of the machine shop I've been using for decades has been saying how crappy all the parts have become recently.

http://mondello.com/page24.html





lavron wrote:So if one had 6 2.7 HSC rods what piston do you use, the stock 250 piston?

See Ya,
Mike


Point 2. Forged steel 6" 2.5 Ford ohv I4, NOT the 2.5 OHC Ranger truck engine.


HSO 2.5 pistons, the port EFI 4 cylinder Sable/ Taurus base engine. Stock 250 or HSO or 255 or 200 pistons.
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #19 by lavron » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:02 pm

Thanks for the clarification X.

So is a casting number E63E-B1A the correct 2.5L HSC rod? Or does anyone know the correct number?

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #20 by chad » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:21 pm

can't that change?
Y not use something that can't: Ford HSC Tempo 2.3L/141ci, i4
(? SilvolLite-KB 1185, lighter? Sealed Power 489P)
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #21 by lavron » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:09 pm

chad wrote:can't that change?
Y not use something that can't: Ford HSC Tempo 2.3L/141ci, i4


I thought I was looking for these;

FORD/LINCOLN/MERCURY 153ci/2.5L 86-91 Connecting Rod : HSC/OHV

Is that not the case or are the 2.3L the same? Just want to make sure I would get the right thing if I go this route.

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con rod vs piston

Post #22 by chad » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:34 pm

sorry, I listed the piston!
:oops:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #23 by Econoline » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:00 pm

I think the early .912" wrist pin 240 rods with custom pistons will be the easiest. Zero deck, 58cc chambers, .044" gasket and 18cc!! D shaped dish pistons with a .030" over bore would yield less than 9.3:1 static C/R. If I'm figgerin that right @ 6.795" rod length with a 3.91" stroke. And give you the future option of going to an aluminum head, .044" gasket @ over 9.6:1 SCR with 54cc chambers in the head.

In my mind it comes down to whether you want to save $3-600(or more depending on machine work, balancing, etc) and use stock parts and find a compromise or just go for it, find the right rods and get custom pistons made. If you can't or won't spend that extra dough, it's going to be a compromise. You're either going to keep a lot of the high comp height and lower the compression to compensate, put a huge cam in with loads of overlap that needs to get up to >2K before it starts making power(effectively lowering the compression), or you are going to build a motor that needs every bit and more of the 62cc chambers in the iron heads. And that leads me to another thing, if the heads are being made again, can we get them cast with bigger chambers? This is a huge problem for 250's and the aluminum head if you want to zero the deck.
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #24 by lavron » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:20 am

Lots of numbers, too small a brain :roll: I am not the best number cruncher so forgive me if I am way off calculating this, but I looked at this, as one example;

Using these numbers I hope are close? With the following "off the shelf" parts, would this be good or bad?

Silvolite 3332H pistons .030 oversized, dish measure 2.843" did. .276" deep (equals 12.863cc) the Compression height = 1.530
FORD/LINCOLN/MERCURY 153ci/2.5L 86-91 Connecting Rod : HSC/OHV which is, I believe, 5.990 long
I will use a 62cc combustion chamber volume (this is yet to be determined)
Stroke should be 3.91"?
Compressed head gasket at .050" (calculated)
The stock engine currently measures .150" deck height.

Not sure I am right in my calculations totally but the stock 250 rods measure 5.880", replacing them with 2.5L HSC rods I would move the piston up the bore .110" that would leave me with .040" of deck height. Now if I replace the stock US 250 piston with a AUS 250 piston the difference in pin height .030" moving the top of the piston up the bore another .030" leaving me with .010" of deck height which could be milled off the block deck to bring me a zero deck block.

This is why I chose the 3332H piston over the 3328H piston to keep CR down a bit.

Using one of the online calculators I used; 3.711" bore, 3.91" stroke, 62cc head chamber, 12.86cc piston dish, 0 deck, .050 comp. gasket = 9.21:1 CR (I would guess this is Static Compression?)

Those numbers look right? Is the compression too high or low for pump gas? I believe my local station has 91 octane premium with no ethanol.

Thoughts? am I way off?

Thanks for the help everyone.

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #25 by Econoline » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:55 am

That will work. It's hard to believe the deck height is currently .150" though. How are you measuring that?

A 54cc chamber will push compression past 10:1. And in your scenario you will want to use the thinner gasket, .044", to get some quench effect. C/R would still be reasonable @ 9.34:1
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #26 by lavron » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:16 pm

Econoline wrote:That will work. It's hard to believe the deck height is currently .150" though. How are you measuring that?


Thanks Seth.

Just using the depth gauge on the digital calipers with the original parts so it is not totally accurate, any final measurement would need to be done at the machine shop with the new parts installed before doing any decking of the block. I am pretty sure this engine never experienced a machine shop after it left FoMoCo, it has, however had the head off at some point because it had an aftermarket head gasket, I don't have the head because it had a crack in it so I left it at the JY, in hindsight I wish I would have kept the head so I could cut it up and look at the insides. :P

Econoline wrote:And in your scenario you will want to use the thinner gasket, .044"


I just used the middle of the road head gasket according to the Falcon Performance Handbook.

My hope is if I can put the bottom end together cheap enough I can spend a little more on head work and other extras :roll:

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #27 by Econoline » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:28 am

I would expect that # to come down. If the head is off you can get or borrow a micrometer with a magnetic base. You want to measure near or on the pin axis on the face near the edge. Try both sides and both ends of the engine. You never know if one piston was replaced with a shorter pin hgt rplmnt piston. I actually helped a friend last year fix his 170 here and the only solution he could afford for his broken rings and ring lands on the #6 was just such a piston. When he showed up it was limping, we fixed it, had a valve job done while the head was off and when we fired it up, I checked the initial timing and it was off the scale by at least 15 degrees advanced, ie. 30 degrees or so of intial. Culprit. The two months before he was running all over the US fully loaded in a 65 econoline supervan, extended model with a 170! Mind blowing. It's still running today, in Amsterdam of all places lol. If you end up to high for the aussie pistons with the 2.5 rods, they used to make an oem usa smog piston with a 13cc chamber that would work, if you could find them. Or there's custom pistons, or Calspec will mill the cast dishes further out cheap. Imo, there's a reason why silvolite shows the sliced cast profile of the pistons in their catalog. If they aren't hypereutectic, iow if they are oem cast pistons, they're all the same and meat is meat. I'm not losing any sleep over having the 2.5 hsc pistons milled with 8cc dishes for my application. I just wish I would have had them milled further, like 10 or 13 cc's. But a different cam was involved in the get go.
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #28 by lavron » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:45 pm

Econoline wrote:they used to make an oem usa smog piston with a 13cc chamber that would work, if you could find them.


I have been looking for those in case of such a scenario but have not found any yet.

Econoline wrote: If the head is off you can get or borrow a micrometer with a magnetic base. You want to measure near or on the pin axis on the face near the edge.


The head and everything else is off the engine, it is just a bare block now, not that I couldn't reassemble but I figured with worn components it wouldn't be very accurate anyway.

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #29 by xctasy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:32 pm

The pistons I really like are the used stock size 3.736" 305 forged or 229 V6 forged pistons (Che#y).

Small block chevy 305 cui TRW L3028F

I can't quickly find the other two part numbers for the 305 and 229 older forged pistons, but they are around, and they are great pistons.

I have a 250 over bored 56 thou with 200 Australian Ford rods (300 Ford size but approx 6.275", or 65 thou longer than the the 6.2097 inch 300 rod, and with the stock pin taken out to 0.927")

The pistons came from a Valiant racer who used small block Chev 305 pistons in his 229.

The V6 has an offset inside the piston to suit the V6 crank, while the 305 forged has none.

Each is 11 to 13 cc with an approx 180 thou trench, and the stock compression height is 1.536 vs 1.531" For the Ford.

You can cut the piston down a massive 100 thou with ease. Chevy guys have used stroker cranks or longer 5.85" rods with these.

TRW made them in two part numbers for years, and the take up was good (ie a lot of people bought them for stock rebuilds, as forged pistons like a little more clearance, and if an old 305 or 229 has just been cruising, it won't need anthing more than a plateau hone to bring the taper and ovaliarity into cohee for a forged piston.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1579&p=11477#p11477
xctasy wrote:My advice is to chat with a good piston specialist. When I talked to my local Ford engineer, he asked me if I knew more than the FoMoCo? The point is, if you want to dabble in the black art of piston swaps, you must ASBSOLUTELY know what your doing. I'm not there yet because my little project I6 build isn't on the road, and I don't have the cash to correct an expensive mess up. Heres what I found about the Chevy pistons:-

There are two types of 229V6/305V8 forged piston. Light duty, and heavy duty. Some will handle a cut of 60 thou or more without weakening, others will be compromised strength wise. Because my 229V6/305V8 Chevy pistons were going into an odd ball 250 block with Aussie 3.3/200 long rods and a Aussie/Argentina 3.6/221 crank, I had a situation where the normal 1.531 inch piston was 56 thou out of my cylinder block. OOOCH!

Calcs were 6.275 inch rods, plus 3.46 stroke halved, all subtracted from a 9.48 inch deck register. That leaves only 1.475 inches of piston top to wrist pin space...less if the deck is 9.469 inches like most of your US 250's. I may have had to shave 67 thou off to get the piston level on that block. And remeber, that a six needs more room for rod and piston streatch at 4000 to 5000 rpm range most I6's max out at. 25 THOU BELOW THE BLOCK IS SAFE
. (I'm told the latest Gen iii Holden has a plus 6 thou piston/block protrusion with a semi cast piston, but the've spent millions getting the piston to dove tail in with the alloy heads on a stiff alloy block)

The solution for me was to mill 60 thou, which is likely to be too much on a cast piston. On a 200, a 30 thou mill would be fine, and would put a Chevy piston back in the block where it belongs. I can't rationalize it, 30 thou is not much to mill a cast piston, but 60 or 70 thou is a lot more and I'd be pretty scared lopping off that much. Could excecute a good piston!

The thing is, most cast and cheeper forged pistons are optimised designs which may have little margin for 60 though of shaving. After spending out on some left over Chevy pistons, which are rare and expensive down here, I wanted the security of a good forging. My pistons are old TRW forgings, can't remember the exact line number. Down here, theres a guy in Christchurch, South Island, who does custom machining of imported US Ross forged blanks, and he says some off the shelf forgings are not thick engough to get savage with a milling machine.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67792

xctasy wrote:Back before I joined Ford Six, I had a special block made up. My 229 cubic inch X-flow Falcon engine runs a cold run welded cast iron XT Falcon 221 crank (the 1968 to 1970 221 ran 200 Falcon main bearings, but the post 1971 non cross flow and crossflow blocks were all a similar to US 250 bearing size, and also ran the small 200 Ford crank pilot, which was 3.4" diameter rather than 250/240/300/Small Block Ford 3.625" crank flange).

For pistons, some 12cc dish 3.736" 305 and 229 TRW forged pistons which have two different part numbers but are the same piston. Each has a lot of meat in it as a forged piston, with 110 thou depth and an irregular shaped trough of 3.1" diameter on its longest side. Enough to take 110 thou or more off in a lathe. The 1971-1993 3.3 Liter Aussie rods were all 6.27" and are fixed to the 0.927" Chevy rod after a 15 thou hone out from the nominal 0.912 wrist pin. Then the pistons were decked to suit the 9.387" deck register our Aussie ohv 200/250 sixes had from 1971-1993. I had to add a much taller 62 thou head gasket, as the pistons had to be shaved right down a massive 140 thou to 1.39". 1.39 compression height, 6.27" rod, 1.73" throw 3.46" stoke crank, perfect o deck, but the stock nice big Chevy small block dish was totally gone, and the stock alloy head X-flow chambers are 53 cc, so compression was 10.75:1 to suit propane. It solved the L/R ratio problem, but then I lost heart, and as I was looking at supercharging, there was no way to get the C/R down unless I added a 140 thou plate and found another set of TRW Forged pistons as I'd already cut them down. I'd used the first four from the right bank from the 305 forging and the two of the right bank from the 229. The pistons have a 62.5 thou thrust left to right, and the V6 ones were designed for the semi even fire 229, which was designed to run offset conrods. The dish is biased, so you can't just get six the same. Long story short, my combo only works for a high compression engine on NZ 98 octane, and its layed dormant in my basement because of that reason.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #30 by lavron » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:52 am

I ordered 6 of the Ford Tempo 2.5L HSC/OHV Connecting Rods today so I guess I am ready to see if this will work. :roll:

I am holding off on the pistons for now until I know what overbore is required, this will be a long term project BTW don't expect me to come back next week and tell how it worked, I just wanted to make sure I could acquire all the parts first :P

I may try and do a better measure on my bore to see generally what, if any, overbore needs to be done, if I can do a .020" I would rather.

Again thanks for suggestions and advice on this and I am sure I will have more questions as I progress along (if I can get some progression in there)

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #31 by xctasy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:32 am

chad wrote:can't that change?
Y not use something that can't: Ford HSC Tempo 2.3L/141ci, i4
(? SilvolLite-KB 1185, lighter? Sealed Power 489P)


Circumstances alter cases.

5.45" tall if 2.3 OHV, 3.30" stroke, 3.68" bore Four with 140.4 cubic inch engine with 250 cam postion, but 8.66" tall block
6.00" tall if 2.5 OHV. 3.585" stroke, 3.68" bore Four with 152.5 cubic inch engine with 250 cam position, but 9.36" tall block (Australian 250 block height, 89 thou shallower than 250)

OHC EOA 2 LITER "Pinto 2.0", 4.96-5.00" (good for 200 with Chrylser 3.3 OHV piston of 1.26" compression height )
OHC Lima 2.3, "Pinto/Fox/Ranger2.3" 5.20"
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #32 by lavron » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:45 pm

I got 6 of these today, Ford 2.5L HSC/OHV Connecting Rods, now I have to figure out how to make 2 of them say 5 & 6 :P :roll:

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #33 by xctasy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:26 pm

lavron wrote:I got 6 of these today, Ford 2.5L HSC/OHV Connecting Rods, now I have to figure out how to make 2 of them say 5 & 6 :P :roll:

Image

See Ya,
Mike



The tough as goats knees E63E-B1A.

Nice pick up, solves all the problems. :thumbup: :nod: :wow:
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #34 by lavron » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:05 pm

Anyone know if the rod bolts are the same as the 250 on the 2.5L HSC rod? Would they use the same ARP bolts?

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #35 by bubba22349 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:38 pm

I believe that they would use the same ARP Rod Bolt, but you might do some quick measuring just to be sure? If you happen to have a 250 Rod handy would you take a picture or two with them side by side. Good luck :nod:
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #36 by lavron » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:37 am

bubba22349 wrote: If you happen to have a 250 Rod handy would you take a picture or two with them side by side.


I could do that but the pistons are still attached to the 250 rods, I will post a pict if I can press the pin out easy but I don't want to damage the original rods, someone might be looking for some forged 250 rods down the road :roll:

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #37 by chad » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:15 am

the ARP rod bolts are one of the few upgrades some here recommend for a standard to mid level build.
Have U cked the Tech Archive here (C above 2nd blue horrizontal bar) or the "Handbook" ?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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rocklord
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #38 by rocklord » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:52 am

See if the bottom of the 2.5L connecting rod will fit on the 250 rod, and vice versa.

The openings on big ends of the rods should be the same diameter.

Or just measure the diameter of the bolts on the 2.5L and 250 rod to see if they are the same.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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lavron
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #39 by lavron » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:02 am

chad wrote:Have U cked the Tech Archive here (C above 2nd blue horrizontal bar) or the "Handbook" ?


The Handbook is like my 6 cylinder bible (I have like the first or second edition and the newest edition), and I have read several of the tech articles.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Currently a Build in Progress- Whatever I do it will be awesome!

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lavron
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #40 by lavron » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:46 pm

I was messing with comparing the rods today and pulled one of the rod bearings out, pretty sure they are the original.

Image

And I know this is a crude way to show the difference in length but I don't have a way to press the wrist pin out, so the "precision" ruler is sitting against the pin and then you can see on the other one I was measuring from edge to edge on the holes.

Image

A bit of difference in length, hopefully I have solved my quench issues if I can keep from getting the CR too high.

I also was checking to see if the rod bolts were the same because I am wanting to have ARP bolts installed and I wasn't sure what to order, looks like regular SBF bolts will work, have to see if I can find a 6cyl set so I don't have to buy the 4 extra, expensive bolts - I think we know why that is :roll: I switched the rod caps and nuts as suggested here to see if they were a match, I was pretty confident they would but better safe than sorry.

Image

Everything looks good for ignition!

Image

I really need to order pistons soon so I think I need to do some more measuring.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Currently a Build in Progress- Whatever I do it will be awesome!

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rocklord
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #41 by rocklord » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:31 am

Just a bit of calculations.

The deck height of a 250 is 9.469". This is stock and doesn't take into account any milling.
A US250 rod is 5.880" long
A 2.5L Taurus rod is 5.990" long.
A 200/250 piston has a compression height (CH) of 1.50"

If you rebuild a 250 with stock rod and piston, the piston will be recessed 0.134" down the cylinder.
(3.91"stroke/2) + 5.880" + 1.50" + 0.134" = 9.469"

If you rebuild a 250 with a 2.5L rod and 250 piston, the piston will be recessed 0.024" down the cylinder.
(3.91"stroke/2) + 5.990" + 1.50" + 0.024" = 9.469"
This will help with your quench, and increase compression. The rod ratio also goes from 1.504 to 1.532.

If you go with a flat top 2.3L HSC piston (1.50"CH), the recess will be the same 0.024", but the compression will be significantly more.

Since you already have the 2.5L Taurus rods, this is the best way to go.

Another way to improve quench and increase the rod ratio in a 250 is 1965-68 300cid rods, and +1.0mm flat top pistons from a 2002-04 Jeep 4.7L OHC V8. The early 300 rods have a 0.9122" pin diameter, the Jeep piston has a 0.946" pin diameter so the small end of the 300 rod would have to be enlarged 0.0338".

And now the math:
65-68 300 rod is 6.210" long
2002-04 4.7L +1.0mm flat top piston is 3.701" in diameter with a CH of 1.24"
This rebuild will give you a recess of 0.064", less than half the stock depth.
(3.91"stroke/2) + 6.210" + 1.24" + 0.064" = 9.469"

This setup will increase the rod ratio from stock 1.504 to 1.588

The 65-68 300 rod does have a larger big end (2.2758" vs 2.239") so the 300 rod bearing would have to be used.

Hope you find this interesting.

Excel spreadsheet can be such a time-waster. :D
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #42 by lavron » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:52 pm

Thanks Dan, I am intending to use these pistons in either .020 0r .030 over

lavron wrote:Silvolite 3332H pistons .030 oversized, dish measure 2.843" dia. .276" deep (equals 12.863cc) the Compression height = 1.530


If I figured right that should give me just .010 deck height to mill off and keep the CR in check.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Currently a Build in Progress- Whatever I do it will be awesome!

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #43 by bubba22349 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:09 am

lavron wrote:I was messing with comparing the rods today and pulled one of the rod bearings out, pretty sure they are the original.

Image

And I know this is a crude way to show the difference in length but I don't have a way to press the wrist pin out, so the "precision" ruler is sitting against the pin and then you can see on the other one I was measuring from edge to edge on the holes.

Image

A bit of difference in length, hopefully I have solved my quench issues if I can keep from getting the CR too high.

I also was checking to see if the rod bolts were the same because I am wanting to have ARP bolts installed and I wasn't sure what to order, looks like regular SBF bolts will work, have to see if I can find a 6cyl set so I don't have to buy the 4 extra, expensive bolts - I think we know why that is :roll: I switched the rod caps and nuts as suggested here to see if they were a match, I was pretty confident they would but better safe than sorry.

Image

Everything looks good for ignition!

Image

I really need to order pistons soon so I think I need to do some more measuring.

See Ya,
Mike


Thank you for the pictures comparing those two rods! Yes you are correct that's a stock Ford Std. (Standard) size Rod bearing. Adding the ruler is an excellent touch showing off the differance of almost .120 that's close to an 1/8 inch improvement in the length. Most 250 blocks that haven't been machined (decked) since they left the Ford assembly plant are going to measure taller than Fords stated 250 engine spec though. I think my on 77 Maverick 250 the stock pistions were at .180 down the hole, stock compression was rated at about 8.0 to 8.5 to 1, but I doubt it was that much. Good luck on your 250 build the new rods should be a great help in getting better performance from your 250 while fighting off the detonation problems high compression 250's are know for. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #44 by lavron » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:35 am

Anyone know if the 300 rod bolts are the same as the 250/sbf? Summit sells a kit for the 300 and it is $20 less than the SBF set, I was assuming that was because there were 4 less bolts and nuts but I can't find anything to confirm it, like what size the 300 bolts are. I know I can use the SBF set but if I can save $20 I am all for that, of course I am assuming they are different otherwise ARP and Summit would show they fit a 250 as well.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Currently a Build in Progress- Whatever I do it will be awesome!

drag-200stang
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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #45 by drag-200stang » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:24 am

I would get the sbf ones and use the best 12 ,but that just me.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #46 by chad » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:33 am

lavron wrote:Anyone know if the 300 rod bolts are the same as the 250/sbf? Summit sells a kit for the 300 and it is $20 less than the SBF set, I was assuming that was because there were 4 less bolts and nuts but I can't find anything to confirm it, like what size the 300 bolts are. I know I can use the SBF set but if I can save $20 I am all for that, of course I am assuming they are different otherwise ARP and Summit would show they fit a 250 as well.
See Ya,
Mike

Hit up Matt at vintage inlines dot com as he's on here all the time, specalizes in these motors (all 'falcon' i6s).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #47 by pmuller9 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:48 am

Here is a 300 rod big end measurement

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0g3zz2x906suk ... h.JPG?dl=0

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #48 by lavron » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:56 am

pmuller9 wrote:Here is a 300 rod big end measurement


Thanks for that, you wouldn't know the bolt size, I think small six/SBF are 5/16"

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Currently a Build in Progress- Whatever I do it will be awesome!

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #49 by pmuller9 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:16 pm

The 300 bolts measure .374".
3/8" bolt.

I used the ARP 152-6001 connecting rod bolts.

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Re: My Budget 250 build

Post #50 by lavron » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:21 am

pmuller9 wrote:The 300 bolts measure .374".
3/8" bolt.

I used the ARP 152-6001 connecting rod bolts.


Thanks, maybe I should just stick with SBF bolts because it would probably cost more than $20 to have the holes enlarged.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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Currently a Build in Progress- Whatever I do it will be awesome!

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