Stuck between a rock, and a hard place.

xrwagon":2j9cxps5 said:
Tighe cams are the only ones that sell semi finished crossflow rollers, i know of a couple of guys using them, i know one guy i talk to had a few problems with Tighe but the camshafts are good, he had either clive or Wade finish the cam. Camtech did the final machining of his cam, he is running Comp Cams solid roller lifters, can give more info if needed, his last solid cammed crossflow had a in his words below
xctasy":2j9cxps5 said:
It's no problem getting a roller rocker cam in any form, X-flow or non cross flow.

I'd strongly suggest you look at the ones that can be gotten through Kelford. Mine are suitable for turbo, and are really a K code/E303 cheeter cam. It's a specific grind to pass emissions, as unlike 5.0's, you can't prove a post 1975 3.3 or 4.1 in an X shell, Bronco, F100 or Fox will pass any Aussie or US or US California 1975 to 1983 standard emission test. Enough work has been done, and the EO and CARB requirements can be applied to make the 5.0 eclipse a 3.3 or 4.1. But a 3.3 or 4.1 can with ease out decimate the 350 to 500 horsepower potential of a 5.0 or 347 if a turbo orblower is added, but the most draconian states in Australia and the USA make an aluminum headed 3.3 or 4.1 a gross poluter unless its on propane. Its that inequity that made me push for a non cross-flow roller cam with the non cross flow head, in a later 1976 to 1992 X-flow block.

The 291 cam that George C used in his TD x-flow Cortina 250 is the right option for making in roller form for the right turbo.

You'd cover off the cost by talking with Mike at Classic Inlines and having a set kit trialled in your 250. X-flow or log or non cross flow or Classic inlines is a non issue, a roller cam is a device that can put a 250 into the 7500 rpm bracket without breaking the long pushrods or taking out the rocker fallcrums.

The American industry has had roller cams suppied to the USA by Crow cam since 1990 for a certain Texan called JD who trailed one in his econo rail. Lynx Corporation and Crow cams did the work back then, but the inline six market for small 144-250 Ford sixes is a very fickle one, with many wanting to go fast, but few wanting to pay the price. There is no risk of ruining a block if oil pump isn't overloaded and you use an EDIS ignition system and a roller cam. You can lean on it reall hard.

I don't want to add another bump in the road map to sucess, but a roller cam is a self funder, and he who pays will also be able to certify a 250 turbo cross flow for us on any engine.

Thanks gentlemen.....( I think)???

This is what I know:

I know full well the benefit of a solid roller cam w/ regard to making power. It was always a go to in all of the V-8 engines I raced. Like I said, Chet/Doug herbert made the cams, and the lifters could be had for a SBF for around 500.00 for both.
I know that the only set of solid roller lifters now available w/ a removable link bar are the Comp Cams Endure-x line...right around 400.00 for 16.
I know that the great state of Alabama has not seen fit to require ANY car that is registered in this state be certified for emissions,...so being emission compliant isn't a concern....
I know that if I could get one,...I could make it fit.
I know that all of the reasons one typically gets a "solid roller cam" are not the same reasons I want a solid roller cam...(well some of the reasons).
A.I do not intend to spin the engine above 6000 RPM,...more like 5500 will be the real world.
B. Along those same lines, I would actually want the cam profile less aggressive (as opposed to all poppity poppity poppity)
C. Big power has to be content to live w/ it's mother-in-law......."reasonable gas milage".
D. I won't have to worry about getting the engine to start immediately, then run at 2000-2500 RPM for 20-30 minutes.
( Remember......D.I.S,...MSII,....custom MPFI.....all untried,.....all hand built by yours truly,...NOT instilling a buttload of confidence in me that it will do what it needs to from the moment I turn the key)

The things I do not know is who to get it from, or how much the thing will cost. I know it'll cost more,..but money is an object...(otherwise I'd be driving a Ford GT instead of a Ford Fairmont.) ;)

I will contact Kelford and we'll see if they'll respond.....Wade wouldn't even reply to my inquiry, and Martin @ Crow has yet to tell me what he want's me to do to complete the original order for the flat tappet cam I was originally considering...before my paranoia set in.
 
Just as an update (to what is basically a blog):

I contacted Kevin at Kelford cams in N.Z. ( Who knows how much that call will cost, made at 4PM my time lasting about 20 minutes)

He told me that they had no roller grind for a L250, ...and that the only ones he knew of were custom made by somebody w/ a buttload of money. (not me)

He confirmed that my recommended Crow solid flat tappet should be on the money, if I can ever get it here. I asked if he could quote me as well, said he could, and gave me HIS email address, (which my email sender promptly rejects as undeliverable) I tried to use their "Contact us" form, and I never hear back.

I resubmitted my inquiry to Martin at Crow cams through Gmail, instead of Hotmail, and he replies that "I should've seen a invoice from sales yesterday". (That was on the 6th)

What the hell is up w/ trying to email english speaking people 18 hours ahead of me? :banghead:

On other fronts, I decided on my turbo, and bought it. I chose a Borg Warner S300SX-3. Similar in size to a Turbonetics 60-1,..only way more reasonable price-wise...I got a deal at $695.00.

While I wait for it to come, I went to one of our local suppliers and bought the 1/2" thick plate that will become my exhaust flange, and spent all-day yesterday drilling, cutting, and sawing that piece of plate into a respectable looking thing that somewhat resembles an exhaust flange. ( Not bad considering all I had to work with was a floor standing Harbor freight drill press, a Hand held Milwaukee band saw, and a couple of hole saws.) I still have a few hours left in it before it's "done".......but for the purchase price of $32.00, (and of course an entire day of my "free" labor) I consider myself "lucky". 8)
 
thanks for the update, very interested in your progress and understand frustrations with vendors. While trying to learn as much as possible on TC/SC theoretical side reading compressor maps etc, , spec'ing and intergrating currently available components , parts and turbo six experience is harder.


... curious now to look into the Borg Warner S300SX-3 for info on OEM appplications, availability and maps - if available. TradeName-mfg' turbo specs often not current or complete, OEM applications often tagged with their part numbers . E-BAy and offshore turbo TC's vendors massive listings of available turbo's compare them to virtually every mfg's product line but rarely offer any real specifications.





a floor standing Harbor freight drill press, a Hand held Milwaukee band saw, and a couple of hole saws.)
... . .


I still have a few hours left in it before it's "done".
... .

have fun ...
 
that's right, I forgot about the hudson valley hawk (picture 2 in the set of 4 shown).
Looks like you got it installed. How did it test out, I'd not heard...
(can't jack a thread in a "blog" [unless asked off, mike - ur prerogative of course])
 
Today I spent the entire day in the garage. Yesterday I met w/ the turbo supplier. He said the my turbo should've been in, but naturally, it wasn't. So instead he mocked up a turbine, and compressor housing so I could build the header. My T-4 flange did come in, so all I needed was the mock up housing to get started.
( Actually, I started building it Wednesday, but now that stuff was getting critical fitment -wise,...I thought better of plowing forward until I had the actual turbo)

I don't know,....maybe I'm getting old(er), but it seems that despite the fact that I spend all day doing something,....there is still an unfinished project left with stuff to do. That is the case again today.

But,..(I digress). When I went down stairs, this is what I had staring at me:
jm52.jpg


For those of you that have never built a header from scratch this is the process:
1. Take an elbow, hold it up against the header flange ( the one you built from scratch last week).
2. Close one eye, pull the welding hood down, and buzz a small tack weld to hold it in place,...based on your eyeballed judgement.
3. Cut a segment of straight tubing,.....hold it up against your newly placed elbow. If it looks good, get your grinder and **bevel the mating surfaces to insure good weld penetration. If not, take the same grinder, and "modify" the mating surface angle until it fits the way you want it. When it does,....bevel the weld surfaces. While holding the piece w/ one gloved hand, use your other hand to "feel" the fitment, to be sure that you are not welding the thing at some goofy-assed angle. When you are happy w/ it,.....buzz a couple of small tack welds.
** The only reason I have to bevel these tubes in preparation for welding is because I'm using mild steel, 1.5" i.d. .145" wall steam pipe, since this is going to be a turbo header. Standard wall tubing ( 16/18 ga.) requires no prep, other than making sure the tubing and angles line up properly.
4. The process marches along like described above until you have an entire tube completed. Once that is accomplished, break the tack weld from the header flange,..and weld all of the joints for the entire tube. I chose to grind the welds smooth after that, purely for aesthetics. You could leave the snag-u-lated welds standing proud for all of your homies to see online if you choose,..and if you do,...expect a smart assed comment from me dogging you for displaying those same "less than T.I.G. quality welds". Besides,..w/ tubing that is over an 1/8" thick,..there is plenty of weld holding the tubes together even after grinding the joints smooth,..so I had nothing to lose.
** As a foot note to the above,..it's important to realize that despite the fact that you are grinding steel outside,....in the open air,.....you are still creating a fairly significant amount of dust. While you may disregard the notion that there is no way you're actually breathing any of that junk in considering the open air and all, you may wanna think twice. After a day spent grinding all of that steel...you are in fact breathing an entire erector set into your head. The prudent version of yourself may elect to use a respirator.
Now I on the other hand, choose to ignore my own advice. I think it shows progress when after the work is done, that you taste iron in the back of your throat, spit and blow black snot out of your head for about an hour afterwards.
* note to self:.......use a respirator next time.
5. After the tube is complete, and ground smooth,.I reattach the thing to the flange w/ a much more serious tack this time. and move on to one of the adjacent tubes.
** This header is for a twin scroll turbo. (Kinda like a twin-turbo system w/0 the twin turbos). The T-4 flange is divided, wherein one half of the engine feeds one side of the flange,..and the other half feeds the other. The design objective then was to build (two) three equal length tube headers to accommodate the twin scroll flange. The benefit to a twin scroll turbo is that it takes advantage of the engine's exhaust pulses more efficiently, and in theory spools the turbo more quickly. If there is a down side to the system,..is that it requires a more intricate header design,....and two waste gates.
Now as a disclaimer in advance,....my header submitted here is certainly no example of some intricate design.....it is actually pretty crude by most twin scroll headers out there. But it is functional,...achieves the design criteria to make the twin scroll turbo work properly, and because it's built out of steam pipe,...should last forever.

The end of the day had me at this point:

k7pt.jpg


I made the two center tubes drop lower than the outside 4 tubes in an attempt to even them up length-wise. What I ended up with was in fact two center tubes that are 1" longer than the #1, and #6 tubes instead. I could leave it and say WTF,..but again that's not me. I'll probably end up cutting the damn tubes and shortening them commensurately. I hope I can get the welder all the way around the tubes after I do that. ( I think I can).

geqz.jpg


The turbo will sit about even, or slightly above the valve cover when you draw a line across engine compartment.
The oil drain will angle back between the opening between tubes 3 &4,.( I'll use a threaded pipe nipple to avoid the hot-assed header,...once I get it south of that,..I'll change it over to -10 from there)

I'll make a simple collector so that each one of those three tube clusters will neck down small enough to feed one of those tiny little holes on the T-4 flange

vrh1.jpg

It looks like a mile above the tubes,...but it's actually about 5".

An additional note worth mentioning is that while working with gloves is cumbersome , and you have no sense of feel w/ them on,....just as soon as you tell yourself that all you're gonna do is just tack this piece in place,...a little molten ball of weld spatter will almost assuredly land right in the palm of your hand.....( as evidenced above, by the little brown dot)

That brings you up to date again.....I should be able to finish them the next time I go at it,..and I'll post the "done" pics when that time comes.

Cya.
 
nice write up -also good seeing the pics .

is the crossflow head matched to the block yet ? or just sitting on with plate to be added?
 
gb500":2g8pi1na said:
nice write up -also good seeing the pics .

is the crossflow head matched to the block yet ? or just sitting on with plate to be added?

Thank you,...and no the head has not had a thing done to it (other than hold that heavy monster on it's side.
 
It's been awhile since my last update, and I realized that I have done a bunch of stuff that I haven't talked about.

I completed the turbo system, Was able to get the hot side completely built, as well as the cold side up into the A2W intercooler. I only have the intake manifold to fabricate, and the whole thing will be taken apart, finish welded, detailed, sandblasted, and painted/coated.

The turbo I used was a twin scroll unit to better take advantage of the 250's smaller size. I built a split collector out of .125 wall plate.
7lte.jpg

k96h.jpg


I placed a "mock up turbo" that the shop I bought mine from allowed me to use to fabricate the header to check for fitment. (It's certainly gonna get noticed)

evto.jpg


A twin scroll turbo requires that two wastegates are used, since the turbo is actually being fed by two dedicated banks of three. This required that I get crafty with regard to the building of the coldside and run it under the air intake. (You can see my original "high" holes, that I was gonna use, but that was before I found out that I'd have no room for that front waste gate if I went that way.

This was the "original" plan:
qsbe.jpg

Had I left it this way w/ the compressor housing clocked as it is in the pic, it would've interfered w/ the front wastegate to the point of direct contact.

But this is now the actual turbo. Clocked 180 degrees differently from the pic above.This is a Borg Warner S300 SX-3. A 60 mm impeller T-4 divided flange,journal bearing turbo w/ a .91 A/R turbine housing. Supposedly capable of making up to 800 HP, I'll be happy w/ 550.

a6j6.jpg

1dop.jpg

m1tx.jpg


m1tx.jpg

dko7.jpg

g232.jpg


I'm not gonna build the intake at this juncture. I want to get the block modified to accept the head,..and get it to the machine shop for sleeving, and finish the "T sump" modifications on my oil pan. so that's all I got for now.
 
I've been holding off on modifying the block for the crossflow head (for whatever reason). I guess I was waiting to be sure I could get a roller cam for the thing. Now that I know I can, I started down the road towards that end. I opened up the lifter galley to allow for the pushrod angle for the canted valves a crossflow head has.
qq7h.jpg

The block starts out this way. I had a crossflow head gasket that I laid over the deck, and scribed a cutout pattern to follow.
7qv4.jpg

I actually didn't follow the scribed lines I made, and chose to go larger to allow me to be able to link the roller lifters once I get them in the holes. I started out using a jig saw w/ a fine tooth blade to rough cut each hole. it took two blades to cut all six holes, but it made quick work of the job. I had all five holes cut in 15 minutes. Next, like the others have done, I chucked up a carbide burr in a 1/4" shank router, and used it to finish the openings. I still have more to cut, but that'll come after I bolt the 1/4" x 1-1/4" bar to the side and fill it with epoxy to add some width to the block to match the crossflow head.
yj1y.jpg

I plan to use JB weld and bolts threaded into tapped holes to hold the plate on, but I have to buy that stuff yet, so this is all I got done today.
 
rocklord":3nyxscxg said:
Would like to know where you get your roller cam and lifters from.

since he is going with the cross flow head, i would say probably from one of the aussie cam manufacturers.
 
xctasy":1conng7a said:
Use CC's 840-16's
and the link bar elimination kit
.

http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/840 ... tId=753223

Problem solved

Thanks. I think I solved my own problem w/ the 460 version of the lifter you linked.
I did find several versions of what is called a keyway lifter. Isky, Crower, Jesel all make one. Used in NASCAR nowdays to eliminate the link bar altogether, and free up some valvetrain weight. It would require that I have the lifter bores opened up to .937, and cut some slot in the bore to accomodate the key
I am already about as one-off esoteric as I care to get w/ this combo, reaming out 12 lifter bores, and then cutting a slot waay down in the bore sounds waay too expensive, and completely unnecessary for my application though.
 
I'll be using the 429/460 link bar lifters in my Crossflow build. Many racers in Oz have used them for years in their Crossflow and non-Crossflow engines, and its a time proven combo, there's no problem solving to be done. The Jesel or Crower keyway lifters are too expensive, and ruin the block for any other type of lifter use once you broach the keyways into the lifter bores. Plus expensive to install since you have to have a Lifter-Tru jig from BHJ that costs several grand to bore the lifter bores out and not get them out of alignment and keep them centered with the cam tunnel.
 
CNC-Dude":1qpf5kej said:
I'll be using the 429/460 link bar lifters in my Crossflow build. Many racers in Oz have used them for years in their Crossflow and non-Crossflow engines, and its a time proven combo, there's no problem solving to be done. The Jesel or Crower keyway lifters are too expensive, and ruin the block for any other type of lifter use once you broach the keyways into the lifter bores. Plus expensive to install since you have to have a Lifter-Tru jig from BHJ that costs several grand to bore the lifter bores out and not get them out of alignment and keep them centered with the cam tunnel.

Yeah, justifying the roller and roller lifters alone was a financial leap for me just to do it. ( but the other negative side effects were motivation enough) The fact that I was mentally "prepared" to spend 1100.00 for the cam, and another 400.00 for the lifters, makes finding the cam for half that like getting a belated Christmas present. Using the comp lifters now means I'll be able to come in under a grand for both the cam and lifters. :nod:

I'm pretty sure that lifter bores #1, and #12 are gonna be a real PITA,...but as long as I can do it, it'll be worth it to me.
 
Wont be any harder or more difficult than opening up the deck for pushrod clearance. I am in the process of writing and publishing several inline oriented "How To" books featuring the various engine brands, so I may end up doing a Crossflow build and making it into one as well.
 
Well,... marching along.

Today, ( actually a couple of days now,..) I've been prepping the block for the reinforcement plate that gets "glued" to the top side to reinforce the butchery that has to happen to accommodate the intake pushrods on my Xflow head swap.

There are things about the swap that bother me, particularly having to block off so many water passages to the head,..but that is another hurdle I'll jump later in this build.
For now,...I will deal w/ the bar stock that has to go along side:

70h6.jpg


Previous pioneers that have done this before fit a .250 thick, 1-1/4" bar between the two end standoffs on the block, I decided to make mine run the length of the block, starting at the front stand-off mounting surface for the front accessories. Since I plan to epoxy, and bolt my plate onto the block, I went a bit further and drilled all these additional holes to give the epoxy more to bite into.

It has been detailed before that I plan to use a roller cam in this combo. Getting the roller lifter down into the galley, and re-linking the pair actually proved too much of a PITA for me, so I chose to cut slots for the linked lifters to get past the deck. I'm not at that stage yet though as I had to do the plate first before I could cut anything else. But I did drill and tap the six holes in the side of the block for the bolts to go through into the water risers where I will eventually cut a slot out of:
ykl5.jpg


This picture is blurry, but it is supposed to show the surface finish of the block side of the match up. I used a grinding stone to further aggravate the surface so my glue will hold better.
4cu2.jpg


I bought the large size JB weld you can get at AutoZone, and It's good that I did. The process uses about 2/3rds of those large tubes to butter the back of the bar, and then fill the remaining gap. It was at about this point in the process that I had to deal w/ how I was gonna glue the plate using bolts that would have to be removed later, but be immersed in epoxy at the same time. :banghead:

hy9q.jpg


Hopefully, this'll be the solution to the problem. That, my friends is automotive paste wax. ( Meguires paste wax w/ "carnuba" to be exact 8) ). I liberally coated these six dudes w/ that wax, hoping that when I go down there and try to turn those bolts counter-clockwise they come back out. If they don't,....I'm screwed. :oops:

xpfp.jpg

Because that junk is on there.

After gooping the plate, and carefully bolting it in place, I tightened the bolts, and added these three clamps to be sure the plate is tight on the bottom as well. Then I took a heat gun to warm the stuff up (it's 50 degrees here today) and tapped all down the side of the block to aid in the leveling process of the epoxy. Almost immediately aftermy heat/tap regimen began,..air bubbles started to make their way to the top, so I heartily mandate doing the same, because clearly,..the thing would've had quite a few trapped bubbles had I not. It doesn't self level very well compared to the more expensive epoxies I've used in the past either,...but I think I'll be ok.

I'll give it till tommorrow before I go down there and attempt to back those bolts back out. If any of you hear any screaming about 6-7AM tommorrow,......you know it didn't go very well.
 
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