223 low idle and choke problems; What does your 223 idle at?

[bubba22349]

A shake or bounce in a vacuum reading is a sign of a valve or compression problem and your compression test shows quite some difference from highest. Since the engine is new I would not suspect valves and suggest that you recheck the valve lash you might have some that are a bit tight. Valve lash clearance should be .019 with the engine warmed up to operating temp.

 

[Lazy JW]

..... Valve lash clearance should be .019 with the engine warmed up to operating temp.

Yup, this is very important; not checking the valve clearance properly with a fully warmed up just isn't going to cut the mustard with these old Fords, no matter how much you fear developing an oil leak, bear in mind that your engine CANNOT be expected to run properly with improper valve adjustments. Furthermore, it is a procedure that needs to be repeated on a regular basis. Yes, your engine will get dirty.

Next, just because a professional with a superb reputation rebuilt your carb does not mean that it remained perfect since you installed it. Probably, but don't rule it out completely. This is NOT an indictment of the man who did your rebuild, but things do happen.

Also, just what sort of condition is the wiring on this vehicle? A suggestion was made above to verify that the choke operating cable/lever/whatever isn't grounding things out under the dash. I've seen similar things.

Since it appears certain that it is a fuel problem, look the ignition over carefully. The distributor breaker plate MUST be properly grounded, and with a brand-new rebuilt freshly painted the distributor itself may not be getting a good ground. Also, a worn distributor shaft/bushing can give you fits too.

Check the indexing of the rotor to the terminals inside the cap, make sure they are ACTUALLY pointing at the terminal when the plug fires.
Have fun,
Joe

 

[Renegade]

Just did the valve lash. It was bad. Most of the valves were off, a couple had NO clearance. They are all at .019" now.

Still the truck won't run with fully opened choke. And it runs SUPER rich and also hesitates when I give it a good amount of gas. It huffs black smoke when I give it gas. So I was told to lean it out with the mixture screw.

.....so I lean it out. In fact, I was able to seat the needle, truck still ran fine. :wow:




Man things just get worse with this truck.

Thanks for the input all.



About the choke or something grounding out, I'm sure nothing like that is happening. I spent a lot of time on the wiring of this truck to go over problems like that. I'm pretty sure that's not going on.

The dist was not painted, and the rotor is pointing properly. I made extra care to see to that. And I've checked it recently, it's perfect. The lobe seemed fine, but the main argument is that this truck allegedly ran fine to my dads best memories from 20 years ago. I don't see why the dist would be normal then and not now, it is in what-would-be perfect condition.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[bubba22349]

Good you have eliminated most of the possibilities. Sounds like you will need to try another round on the carb now if it’s that rich. First thing I would check is the float level and the float itself. Do you maybe have another one you could try, maybe barrow one, and or send it back to carb shop to have him check it over?

 

[Lazy JW]

.....
-Fuel delivery is optimal....

Still the truck won't run with fully opened choke. And it runs SUPER rich and also hesitates when I give it a good amount of gas. It huffs black smoke when I give it gas. So I was told to lean it out with the mixture screw.

.....so I lean it out. In fact, I was able to seat the needle, truck still ran fine

This doesn't quite sound "optimal" to me. Time to have someone else take a look at the innards of the carburetor; also check the fuel pressure. Have you tried running it sans air cleaner?
Joe

 

[Renegade]

OH yeah, with, without. Oil bath, currently running a paper filter.

The fuel bowl is a glass fuel bowl. 8) I can see exactly what it's doing, and it's working perfectly.

But you're right, I have never checked the actual pressure, but there is a problem. As long as the fuel in the bowl is correct, wouldn't the actual fuel pressure to the bowl be irrelevant? The bowl is filled up perfectly, and promptly if it's ever low from sitting for a while. I just don't see any signs of "would-be" fuel pressure issues. :|

Thanks for helping me out!

 

[Lazy JW]

......


I had the carb rebuilt by a man named Michael Mayben, maybe some of you Holley guys know him, so I know the carb is absolutely perfect.....

It may well be absolutely perfect.

HOWEVER.......

Still the truck won't run with fully opened choke. And it runs SUPER rich and also hesitates when I give it a good amount of gas. It huffs black smoke when I give it gas. So I was told to lean it out with the mixture screw.

.....so I lean it out. In fact, I was able to seat the needle, truck still ran fine....

If everything were "absolutely perfect" then it would run "absolutely perfect", which it absolutely does not; therefore something is still amiss which has absolutely been overlooked.

I'm still thinking it's inside the carburetor, therefore we need to absolutely eliminate the ignition as a problem.

I re-read your posts and couldn't find anything stating whether you actually did or did not replace the points, condenser, coil, wires, cap, rotor, etc. Also verify the gorunding of the breaker plate.

This is indeed a 1956, correct? I believe this to be the first year that Ford switched from 6 volt Positive ground to 12 volt Negative ground; if so, there should be some sort of ballast reistor in line with the ignitin wiring to the coil. I would simply bypass the entire ignition wiring AS A TEST ONLY by hotwiring it with a jumper wire directly to the battery. Also verify the polarity of the coil.

Yes, if the fuel level inside the bowl is correct then you do not have excessive fuel pressure.
Joe

 

[Renegade]

Cap, rotor, condensor, wires, pliges, points all replaced. The ONLY thing not replaced was the coil. And I've been told to do that so I may in the next day.

Yes it's a 12v. And yes it's a '56 F100.

Ballast resistor? I think I know what you're talking about. But I didn't know that's what it was. I just knew it was supposed to be there and so I replaced the wireing since the old wiring was cracked and bolted everything down like original. Problem? The entire engine is painted(I didn't ask them to do that). Maybe that could be a problem?

I still don't see how it could relate to a choke issue or rich issue.



A problem that Mayben himself discussed with me is that the main just in the main well of my carb couldn't be verified as correct. He knew what "level" it was in my carb, but he said even with all of his books and knowledge he couldn't figure out what was the spec jet size, so he claimed there might be a problem in that I may have the wrong jet that was switched out over the years.


.............buuuuuuuuuuuuuut he couldn't prove that. And neither can I. I myself can't verify what the original jet was. But I don't know where to start, so what's the point in worrying about something I can't do anything about? :duh:

Either way, that's a variable.


I have never heard of someone having so much friggin trouble with a Ford 223. Everybody keeps telling me I'll find it, but I keep fixing potential problems to no avail. At least I'm fixing potential problems though.


Also, after I set the valve lash, I hear a ticking, it sounds normal to me, but I've never heard another "normal running" 223 run, so I don't know if you are supposed to hear them tick a little.

 

[flatford6]

They usually do tick a little. It is hard to get the clearance right on all the valves. If it is a loud tick, you can some times find it by putting your finger tip on the rocker arm over either the push rod or the valve end. You can also use a thinner feeler guage than the .019 you used to adjust the valves with and while the engine is running put it between the valves until you find the one that makes the noise go away.

As to the carb, there is some plugged part of the idle circuit. I have used Berryman chemtool sprayed into the idle screw port while the engine is running (with the screw removed and the engine running fast enough to keep it running) to clean out carbon plugs, also spray the idle air bleed restriction from the top of the carb. If this fails, blow compressed air into the idle screw hole and/or the idle bleed. It sounds crude but it has worked many times for me with no damage to the carb. If none of this works, tear down the carb. There is a gasket between the throttle valve housing and the top part of the carb. If I remember right, there are several gaskets which are used on these carbs and will fit, but some of the holes may be out of line or leaking. In any case your problem is in the carb and it will have to be fixed there. There are not many parts in these things and they are primitive simple. Good luck Richard

 

[Lazy JW]

......

Ballast resistor? I think I know what you're talking about. But I didn't know that's what it was. I just knew it was supposed to be there and so I replaced the wireing since the old wiring was cracked and bolted everything down like original.

Good; it's still in there as it should be. The ballast resistor was used because when they switched to 12 volts they used the same coil so now it needs an additional resistance inline to reduce the current flow so as to prevent premature burning of the points.

Some ballast resitors are constructed with two separate resistors in parallel; if one of those burns in two you actually get LESS current flow than normal and your ignition will suffer as a result. Not a strong probability in your situation but it doesn't cost much to look; you may have to turn the resistor over to look at the back side and see what you can see.

If that coil is indeed 54 years old then it needs replaced even if it "runs".

Problem? The entire engine is painted(I didn't ask them to do that). Maybe that could be a problem?

I still don't see how it could relate to a choke issue or rich issue.....

Perhaps nothing, but poor ignition can result from poor grounding even though it "kind-sorta runs". I still agree with Richard that it's most likely in the carb, but I have chased "carb" problems in the past only to discover at long length that it was actually ignition related, and ignition is easier to eliminate as a problem. Make certain that paint is not hindering proper grounding.

A problem that Mayben himself discussed with me is that the main just in the main well of my carb couldn't be verified as correct. He knew what "level" it was in my carb, but he said even with all of his books and knowledge he couldn't figure out what was the spec jet size, so he claimed there might be a problem in that I may have the wrong jet that was switched out over the years.


.............buuuuuuuuuuuuuut he couldn't prove that. And neither can I. I myself can't verify what the original jet was. But I don't know where to start, so what's the point in worrying about something I can't do anything about? :duh: ....

Is this the same main jet that was used 20-some years ago? If it worked then it should work now.

I have never heard of someone having so much friggin trouble with a Ford 223. Everybody keeps telling me I'll find it, but I keep fixing potential problems to no avail.......

When you describe clouds of black smoke, that indicates either a VERY rich mixture or a VERY weak ignition which requires a richer mixture in order to ignite (via choking), and possibly a combination of both problems.
Joe

 

[Renegade]

OK then I will 1) get a new coil today or tomorrow, 2) recheck the ballast resistor(even though I remember doing that before I installed it), 3)sand down the paint to at least some bare metal to absolutely insure I'm getting a good ground.


Would an autozone part be good enough for a coil? I've bought much of the parts for this truck from NAPA, but they are closed today. I might wait anyways.

Thanks a ton everyone!!!

 

[Lazy JW]

Autozone coil will be fine so long as it is the proper spec for your vehicle.

 

[Renegade]

^How would I check that? Just make sure I get the coil for my exact year truck? Or are you suggesting some type of electrical test?


I SUCK at electrical. Some of the first electrical/wiring lessons I've learned were on this truck, but I still am not good with electrical troubleshooting.

Thanks again.

 

[bubba22349]

For the grounds on my 56 F350 I cleaned the area's to bare metal and the bolts and washer's (trucks frame) were the battery ground cable bolts on. Also used a large gauge ground cable from the frame to the engine block and from the engine to the Cab.

 

[Renegade]

This may be a stupid question, but I was asked if my truck uses a resistor when I called about a coil. I honestly don't know. I'm looking through the shop manual as we speak though.


I made some very good, but somewhat indirect progress with solving my trucks problem this morning. Let's put it this way, I "found" a new method of testing my carb and such to narrow down the problems......let's see what happens.

 

[59F100]

If you have a resistor, you may see it mounted to the firewall on the driver's side (that's where mine is). Looks like a little ceramic block with two wires attached to it. If you remove it and look on the back side, you'll see a little coil of wire in there (the resistor).

Keep us posted.

 

[59F100]

Still the truck won't run with fully opened choke. And it runs SUPER rich and also hesitates when I give it a good amount of gas. It huffs black smoke when I give it gas. So I was told to lean it out with the mixture screw.

.....so I lean it out. In fact, I was able to seat the needle, truck still ran fine. :wow:
..

You also stated that it was running super rich (blowing black smoke) however there are indications that it may be running lean (not being able to open the choke all the way)

I just checked my manual. On the idle mixture screw adjustment, it states "turn the needle IN until the engine begins to run rough from the LEAN mixture"

Someone can back me up but if you are seating the needle and the engine still runs, then it is still getting fuel from somewhere which, to me, backs up the "running rich" comment. I could be wrong though. Carbs are finicky and take some careful analysis to get "right". Some people "get it", others like me fiddle with them for hours, read, inspect, take measurements, etc...then ask for help. :roll:

Dont be discouraged. You are only on simple fix away from a great running engine.

I am not a carb expert by any means, but I feel strongly that this is where your problem is.

 

[Renegade]

I'm going to do some "tests" today or tomorrow and hopefully start really narrowing this issue down.

 

[flatford6]

You guys are working too hard on this!!!!! If you suspect ignition and the engine will start, get it running and pull off one spark plug wire at the plug and see just how much spark there is from the wire to ground. Then speed up the engine and see if the sparking stops or gets to weak (less than about 3/8ths inch). This is probably not the problem anyway.

As for the carb, it will probably have to be taken apart to find the problem if you were not able to dissolve out or blow out with compressed air the blockage which is most likely in the air bleed passages or restrictions on top inside the air horn.

 

[Renegade]

Actually, I think it may be a main jet issue. I'll see tomorrow.