All Small Six '62 Falcon 200: Overheating Diagnosis & Build Options
This relates to all small sixes
???? I don't know what the second half of this message say, but I have the right shroud
Excellent job on the Duel Pulley and other V Belt mod's should boost the effessantcy of the AC and Alternator!
1. Did they send you the wrong year radiator? If so I would send that one back for refund.
2. Since the new shroud fits your old radiator I would swap it back in and install the new shroud and see if there is any difference from before.
3. Sounds like a nice radiator. However if you don't mind modding the front radiator support / header, you might consider going all the way to a wider cross flow type radiator you can get a larger capacity radiator with even better cooling without going to any taller of a radiator.
4. A stock 1961 to 1965 170 head can be 48 to 53 CC Combustion Chambers, has the 200, .030 over short block been zero decked? A stock 1973 200 head has 62 CC Chambers that would drop the static compression ratio considerably. In the L.A area a 9.0 to a max of maybe 9.2 works with Reg. 87 fuel, more if you are using a higher grade. I wonder how much compression your running right now? I could figure it out if I had the other details of the 200's engine build. The other thing I wonder about is how much total timing your running?
5. A head change certainly would be easy enough even if you only went with that extra 1973 head you have now that way it shouldn't cost you very much. Any later model 1969 up large log head stock will out flow a fully ported 1968 and older small log heads. So that's worth some extra power too since it has the larger log, the larger 1 3/4 inch carb mounting hole, a bigger intake valve and probably bigger exhaust valves, then you could cut the deck enough to dial in the Compression Ratio to the grade fuel you want to use, plus with Some simple mod's you can add even more power. Yes adding a good 1971 up C4 Trans with a TransGo shift kit would also help make a more fun driver as well as the right rear gear ratio.
One other off the wall thing I though of that had caused over heating before with cars or trucks I worked on, I am sure you probably checked by now but just in case and for any other that might be having the same can of troubles in the future. Does the car roll really easy? IE there's no drag from the brakes that are adjusted too up tight. Best of luck
“. A stock 1961 to 1965 170 head can be 48 to 53 CC Combuston Chambers is the 200 .030 over short block been zero decked? A stock 1973 200 head has 62 CC Chambers that would drop the static compression ratio considerably. In the L.A area a 9.0 to a max of maybe 9.2 on Reg. 87 fuel more if you are using a higher grade. I wonder how much compression your running right now? I could figure it out if I had the other details of the 200's engine build. The other thing I wonder about is how much total timing your running?“
It's a stock 170 head that was rebuilt with the block, .30 over. The compression question has come up a few times and we are starting to think that is playing a bigger factor on the heat than expected. Not sure if the block is zero decked as I didn't do the work myself and the guy whole rebuilt the motor for me when I was 15 has unfortunately passed.
The c4 I have is out of a 66 Mustang and I believe it is actually a green dot.
It's a stock 170 head that was rebuilt with the block, .30 over. The compression question has come up a few times and we are starting to think that is playing a bigger factor on the heat than expected. Not sure if the block is zero decked as I didn't do the work myself and the guy whole rebuilt the motor for me when I was 15 has unfortunately passed.
The c4 I have is out of a 66 Mustang and I believe it is actually a green dot.
Here is a rough guess on what the Compression Ratio of your 200 might be with a set of .030 over re-builder type stock pistons that have with a 6.5 CC dish. The Pistons would have a deck height of .030 down the hole with 48 CC head and a steel shim head gasket of .022 thickness, you would have a Compression Ratio of 9.29 to 1 not to bad. with a 52 CC head you would be at 8.82 to 1. Now if the head was milled even more as was the prat use in building them back in the day the chambers might be at 46 or even 44 CC that would add up to much more. Until you decide to pull the head and see how it was built the only other way to get a good idea of the engines CR is by doing a cranking compression test that could give a fairly accurate estimate.
The 1964 to 1966 Green Dot C4's have a few problems that need some work for any performance type use and the amount of power the engine will have. The Main weak points of all the 1964 to 1969 C4's is the smaller input shaft which is .788 diameter with a 24 X 24 spline. and its matching 24 spline torque converter (also they are not a good stall speed for performance use).
All higher performance type C4's need to use the larger and stronger input shaft that was standard in 1970 this was a one year only input shaft that is a bigger size of .839 with a 26 X 26 spline shaft with its own one year only front drum unit. In the 1971 to 1982 C4's the input shafts were changed again they are the same .839 diameter shaft but with a 26 X 24 spline these are the best of the factory Ford parts, the even stronger aftermarket input shafts are also made to these same dimensions and a 26 X 24 spline count, these would require one of the matching 1970 up Torque Converters with a 26 Spline, and the front drum (1970 only 26 Spline) or better still the 1971 to 1982 24 Spline, basically everything from the front drum forward to the torque Converter needs to be from the 1971 up C4 transmissions
The early C4 cases were then changed along with a Third type valve body in the 1970 up C4's. The 1964 to 1966 valve body is the worse one to use for any type of performance use even if you use one of the TransGo shift kits in it. The best fix for the these early C4 Trans cases is to get hold of a 1967 to 1969 Select Shift Valve body these are much better and greatly improve the shifts they are only other valve body that will fit into the early 1964 to 1969 C4 cases.
If you plan to use the 1965 to 1966 Duel Range Valve Body you can use the TransGo #SKU 45-01 Reprogramming Kit for some performance use or a # SKU 4L Shift Kit for regular street use.
With the better 1967 to 1969 Select Shift Valve Body you use the TransGo #SKU 47-01 Reprograming Kit for best performance use or a # SKU 4S Shift Kit for regular street use.
If your going to replace the front durm than you should look for a 1971 up V8 (302) drum that comes with more clutches to start with they can be reworked so that it has at least 5 clutches with the right aftermarket parts 6 clutches are possible probally not needed for you build. Also use the V8 rear drum so it has more clutches too. The Stock Ford Band is good one to use. For a Servo cover you can look for the A, R, or S, Covers and Pistons. You will need a Auxilere Trans cooler too. You can get a custom built torque convertor with a higher stall from severial places in the 1800 to 2200 RPM depending on the cam you choose to use. There is quite a lot to building up a performance C4. Best of luck
All higher performance type C4's need to use the larger and stronger input shaft that was standard in 1970 this was a one year only input shaft that is a bigger size of .839 with a 26 X 26 spline shaft with its own one year only front drum unit. In the 1971 to 1982 C4's the input shafts were changed again they are the same .839 diameter shaft but with a 26 X 24 spline these are the best of the factory Ford parts, the even stronger aftermarket input shafts are also made to these same dimensions and a 26 X 24 spline count, these would require one of the matching 1970 up Torque Converters with a 26 Spline, and the front drum (1970 only 26 Spline) or better still the 1971 to 1982 24 Spline, basically everything from the front drum forward to the torque Converter needs to be from the 1971 up C4 transmissions
The early C4 cases were then changed along with a Third type valve body in the 1970 up C4's. The 1964 to 1966 valve body is the worse one to use for any type of performance use even if you use one of the TransGo shift kits in it. The best fix for the these early C4 Trans cases is to get hold of a 1967 to 1969 Select Shift Valve body these are much better and greatly improve the shifts they are only other valve body that will fit into the early 1964 to 1969 C4 cases.
If you plan to use the 1965 to 1966 Duel Range Valve Body you can use the TransGo #SKU 45-01 Reprogramming Kit for some performance use or a # SKU 4L Shift Kit for regular street use.
With the better 1967 to 1969 Select Shift Valve Body you use the TransGo #SKU 47-01 Reprograming Kit for best performance use or a # SKU 4S Shift Kit for regular street use.
If your going to replace the front durm than you should look for a 1971 up V8 (302) drum that comes with more clutches to start with they can be reworked so that it has at least 5 clutches with the right aftermarket parts 6 clutches are possible probally not needed for you build. Also use the V8 rear drum so it has more clutches too. The Stock Ford Band is good one to use. For a Servo cover you can look for the A, R, or S, Covers and Pistons. You will need a Auxilere Trans cooler too. You can get a custom built torque convertor with a higher stall from severial places in the 1800 to 2200 RPM depending on the cam you choose to use. There is quite a lot to building up a performance C4. Best of luck
My head is spinning with all of this info.
The goal is to have the c4 durable enough for longevity but also be able to handle some more HP. I think that my rear end will be the weak point.
Eventually when I have the 250 2V build complete we are looking for something in the 200-250hp range, nothing too crazy. Not looking for a race car but something to enjoy and cruise.... But also have some fun light to light.
Looked at transgo before. The c4 I have is out of a mustang it was rebuilt less than 5k before everything was yanked and its beyond clean. Would be a bummer to need the extra spend. I have the motor it was behind which is where the 73 head came from and the 60's 200 block will be the base for the performance build with the 250 2V.
Thanks @bubba22349
Your very welcome. Even an early model C4 (1964 to 1969 case) built with the right combo of parts will easily handle that kind of HP level (200 to 250). Since the trans is in good condition you should use it. The TransGo Shift and Reprogramming kits are great I grew up just a few blocks from that company's location I have been using them since the 1960's. I think if your stock 7 1/4 rear axle is in good condition it will also that handle HP level especially when using an auto Trans. Best of luck
So no bubbles in the coolant, added the shroud and it didn't really change a things at idle especially with the ac on. If anything it may have slowed the climb by about 30 seconds/° but what is interesting is with the shroud on now the temp will drop much quicker at highway speeds. Still getting up into the 220s on a hot day like today and not coming back down if the ac stays on.
Guess I am out of options at this point.
Anybody have any ideas of where to scrap my current methods and start from scratch.
Feeling pretty defeated and starting to Think I'm about ready to scrap the entire drive train and start working on the 250-2v build with c4. Maybe that motor will have a better chance at cooling.
Guess I am out of options at this point.
Anybody have any ideas of where to scrap my current methods and start from scratch.
Feeling pretty defeated and starting to Think I'm about ready to scrap the entire drive train and start working on the 250-2v build with c4. Maybe that motor will have a better chance at cooling.
Running out of useful ideas, this has been happening since the rebuild 5 years ago, yes/no???
Did you use a IR temp gun to check the top header tank temp vs the bottom tank temp. That would tell you that radiator is/isn't cooling.
Did you ever remove the aux fans to see if they were blocking air flow??
Did you ever just remove the thermostat and see what happens.
Did you ever try an aux cooler for the trans, just to reduce the heat load on the radiator?
Did you use a IR temp gun to check the top header tank temp vs the bottom tank temp. That would tell you that radiator is/isn't cooling.
Did you ever remove the aux fans to see if they were blocking air flow??
Did you ever just remove the thermostat and see what happens.
Did you ever try an aux cooler for the trans, just to reduce the heat load on the radiator?
15 yrs was the rebuild. Yes since then
IR temp reads withing 5° of the Sniper ecu.
Removed the push fans and it cooled a bit better on highway and moving above 40mph but at idle the temp climbed so quickly the heat soak peaked at 227° and never got back down below 210°. Put them back on and the temp would hold steadier between lights.
Have not removed the T/S.
Looking into external trans coolers now for the next steps.
You are correct. I have never let the car get to the point of no return. The concern is real with Temps like this and it not even being 100°+ outside. I know of guys in Arizona desert with highs of 115° that don't have the same issues as me. So I am cautiously approaching this issues as not to cause permanent damage and end up having to spend thousands more with months of down time. I think you can understand that and relate when it comes to cars that have sentimental value as well.
Use the IR gun to check the radiator efficiency, not just the accuracy of the gauge.
Measure the temp at the top of the radiator, hottest part of the cooling system and compare to bottom of radiator, coolest part of cooling system.
A good radiator will show a 20 degree difference.
Measure the temp at the top of the radiator, hottest part of the cooling system and compare to bottom of radiator, coolest part of cooling system.
A good radiator will show a 20 degree difference.
@bubba22349 @xctasy @wme013 We decided to just full commit after no luck with the shroud either.
Pulled the head and it has a bit of a water leak near 4 & 6 and the valve seals on 1 5 6 were bad dripping oil through.
Here is the plan for the build now that I have it at a performance shop doing the work:
New Head '73 rebuilt
Cooling System Diagnosis
Pulley Alignment
Relocated A/C Bracket (touching frame)
New Alternator (1 wire 140amp+)
C4 Install
Driveshaft
Linkage for Column shift
My question to all of you, how have you installed a c4 with proper linkage to keep the column shift and have the right selectors. What linkage kit was used, what fab was necessary, how was the kick down set up?
Any and all help greatly appreciated!
Pulled the head and it has a bit of a water leak near 4 & 6 and the valve seals on 1 5 6 were bad dripping oil through.
Here is the plan for the build now that I have it at a performance shop doing the work:
New Head '73 rebuilt
Cooling System Diagnosis
Pulley Alignment
Relocated A/C Bracket (touching frame)
New Alternator (1 wire 140amp+)
C4 Install
Driveshaft
Linkage for Column shift
My question to all of you, how have you installed a c4 with proper linkage to keep the column shift and have the right selectors. What linkage kit was used, what fab was necessary, how was the kick down set up?
Any and all help greatly appreciated!
"...Cooling System Dx?..."
back to post #25
There are abt a doz things U can wrk with to effect running temps. The big one - proper tune.
Here's the areas:
back to post #25
There are abt a doz things U can wrk with to effect running temps. The big one - proper tune.
Here's the areas:
- leaks in system; air in system
- correct shroud (fan 1/2 in/1/2 out unless 'flex', that = 3/4 in)
- coolant - mix, additives, age, cleanliness;
- water pump - operation, condition; cavitation;
- heater core - leaks, condition, it’s fan on/off;
- block - water passages;
- hoses - collapse, leaks;
- thermostat - condition, temp rating;
- radiator (sz, # rows, clean?, construction, materials - I like ol style copper)
- radiator cap - pressure rating, condition, design;
- fan (blades, design, clutch)
- flush system last yr. or 2?
- leaks in system; air in system - NO AIR, WILL CHECK FOR LEAKS AFTER NEW HEAD INSTALL
- correct shroud (fan 1/2 in/1/2 out unless 'flex', that = 3/4 in) - CHECK
- coolant - mix, additives, age, cleanliness; - CHECK
- water pump - operation, condition; cavitation; - CHECK NEW HIGH FLOW ALUMINUM (FLOWKOOLER)
- heater core - leaks, condition, it’s fan on/off; - CLEAR (FLUSHED WITH RAD)
- block - water passages; - CLEAR (OTHER THAN A BIT OF STANDARD RUST ON THE LIP)
- hoses - collapse, leaks; - ALL NEW
- thermostat - condition, temp rating; - 180°
- radiator (sz, # rows, clean?, construction, materials - I like ol style copper) - 3 ROW COPPER BRASS CLEAN (WENT BACK TO ORIGINAL FOR SHROUD FITMENT)
- radiator cap - pressure rating, condition, design; 13LB
- fan (blades, design, clutch) - 6 BLADE
- flush system last yr. or 2? - 8x IN THE LADT YEAR
Yes I have been doing this for many years on lots of custom engine trans swaps! For the column shiftier if you are going to be using the Green Dot valve body you need to find a Falcon or Comet gear indicator for your column this would be a 1965 to 1966 the Fairlane part might also be the same and work 1964 to 1966. If you will be using the later 1967 up Select Shift C4 then you use the newer 1967 / 1968 gear indicator part. The Mustang trans uses a floor shiftier so the gear selector arm is pointing up and will need to be changed to a column selector by dropping the trans pan some years of C4's have both the Floor and Column lever options in the selector lever part. The Mustang kick down linkage uses a short cable that connects to the lever on the throttle linkage this is by far the cleanest setup for a kick down linkage. You may be able to add this lever by making and welding or acquiring one off a Mustang on to your existing firewall throttle pedal linkage or by changing over to the 1964 1/2 to 1966 Mustang throttle linkage used on the firewall. Another way that you can do it is to look for the carb kick down linkage parts from a 1965 or 1966 Falcon / Comet with a C4 trans, lastly you could make this work with making a cable setup and using a couple of pulleys too. I mostly made my own to fit from stock Ford parts sometimes cutting them and adding or removing material in either one or two areas to get the right shape and clearance, then welding them back togeather. There's this Lokar kit too that looks liek would be quick to fit. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Loka...kdown,25543.html?sku=49120C4HT&utm_matchtype={match_type}&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SMI%20-%20Shopping%20(CSE)%20(Bing)&utm_term=4577404347370193&utm_content=All%20Products%20(Feb28_2020)
For the column shift selector linkage I have always made up my own selector rod to fit by modding the OEM parts to fit at an angle going to the trans lever or by using a bell crank assembly with some time I got very good results, but a while back I found out about several kits made for these by several different company's like Locar at about $75.00, or here is another one of them that also seems reasonable to this could save some time. https://www.ebay.com/itm/2239785597...80496732614416&abcId=9300542&merchantid=51291
Hope that is some help, best of luck