At wits end...

With your cam, the 272° is total duration. You can have an "aggressive" cam that opens up quickly (aka steep ramp) or a gentler one that opens more slowly. Yet both have the same "advertised duration".

Information you need about the cam is generally:

Total duration (Advertised duration)
Duration at 50 thou
Max lift (preferably of cam lobes, not valve lift)
Intake lift at TDC (lift at TDC)
Centreline or angles at opening / closing
Operating (power) range
Recommended idle RPM (which may note if a stall converter is required)

Clifford should be able to get that information to you. If not, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Jumping back a step, the reason I mentioned your ignition and electricals is due to experiences with these issues. Sometimes, a rebuilt unit can be way off what you need. It may be assembled wrong, or have wrong components. That was my concern with the distributor.

As to alternators - I have seen them work fine at low engine speeds, then with warming up and increased load, the output degenerates and the motor coughs, splutter erratically and fouls plugs (leading people to say the carb is running rich! :wink: ). Proper testing procedures on each of these is the only way to be sure (unless you're experienced in either field). Lifetime warranties are well and good, but a diagnosis is sometimes worth more.

Adam.
 
Aren't there timing marks on these cam gears? Can't he reasonably confirm the cam timing just by pulling the front cover off and making sure the marks are lined up? Good opportunity to check the timing chain play, too.
 
Theoretically, yes. But if the indexing of the drive sprocket is off from standard (or indexed to fully smogged emissions standards), then all you can vouch is that the dots line up. The fact that it runs passably is confirmation of this much, to me.

FWIW, all the aftermarket Aussie cams I've dealt with have been true to their card - if the timing set is fresh and good quality. I have heard stories of some US ones being off, from a reliable source (but these were SBF, and may have been factory regrinds).

I'm not advocating the cam biz yet, as there are other (easier) avenues to document beforehand. Plus, it would take two hours to set up, an hour to validate every lobe and three hours to reassemble. Add that timeframe to a degree wheel, dial indicator/magnetic base, damper puller and a few gaskets, and you've got something of an investment in your day off.

Adam.
 
I am new to posting so here we go. I have been reading on this and previous posts and I think you have too nice of a car to get mad and sell it, just think how you would feel seeing someone else blast past you after you sold them your car for cheap and they where able to fix it. :shock: #1-new engine, 200 miles, not even fully broke in yet. #2- It ran good after rebuild but after modified head went on problems came up. That tells me the shortblock is fine,the cam,lifters and chain would all be ok. Rhodes lifters bleed down oil pressure at idle making that cam almost stock if adjusted correctly with good oil pressure. #3- Did you put the weber on after the head swap or before? If you are using an adapter for the weber this helps alot because you probably have a box with the old carb in the garage that you know idles well that you can bolt back on for a test. Here are a couple of things I'm thinking, you changed distributors but you hooked up to a full time vacuum source, try a ported one. That will help with the confusion on timing. Get new base gaskets for your old carb and reinstall. Dont worry about linkage and all that, we need it to idle first. plug off all vacuum connections from the carb for now. fire it up, if it runs good at idle after warming up and some tuning your carb needs help or you have problems in the vacuum system. If you still have problems after that I would say you have something wrong in the head : :? yes I mean the head on the car like too tight of valveguides or misadjusted rockers/valves that aren't closing all the way. My guess is it will turn out the carb in the end, go back to basics and work from when you first developed your problems. One time working all weekend long trying to get #1 on tdc and getting the distributor set correctly on a ford 2.3 after the timing belt snapped and second and third guessing myself standing in front of a popping/coughing car just worn out my wife came out , looked at the engine and said" what are those marks on those gears for? 20 minutes later it was running. Good luck
 
New to posting maybe, but certainly no newbie to engines, welcome 67Stang!



67stang":115u3qo6 said:
I am new to posting so here we go. I have been reading on this and previous posts and I think you have too nice of a car to get mad and sell it, just think how you would feel seeing someone else blast past you after you sold them your car for cheap and they where able to fix it. :shock: #1-new engine, 200 miles, not even fully broke in yet. #2- It ran good after rebuild but after modified head went on problems came up. That tells me the shortblock is fine,the cam,lifters and chain would all be ok. Rhodes lifters bleed down oil pressure at idle making that cam almost stock if adjusted correctly with good oil pressure. #3- Did you put the weber on after the head swap or before? If you are using an adapter for the weber this helps alot because you probably have a box with the old carb in the garage that you know idles well that you can bolt back on for a test. Here are a couple of things I'm thinking, you changed distributors but you hooked up to a full time vacuum source, try a ported one. That will help with the confusion on timing. Get new base gaskets for your old carb and reinstall. Dont worry about linkage and all that, we need it to idle first. plug off all vacuum connections from the carb for now. fire it up, if it runs good at idle after warming up and some tuning your carb needs help or you have problems in the vacuum system. If you still have problems after that I would say you have something wrong in the head : :? yes I mean the head on the car like too tight of valveguides or misadjusted rockers/valves that aren't closing all the way. My guess is it will turn out the carb in the end, go back to basics and work from when you first developed your problems. One time working all weekend long trying to get #1 on tdc and getting the distributor set correctly on a ford 2.3 after the timing belt snapped and second and third guessing myself standing in front of a popping/coughing car just worn out my wife came out , looked at the engine and said" what are those marks on those gears for? 20 minutes later it was running. Good luck
 
67stang":2cle9vn7 said:
One time working all weekend long trying to get #1 on tdc and getting the distributor set correctly on a ford 2.3 after the timing belt snapped and second and third guessing myself standing in front of a popping/coughing car just worn out my wife came out , looked at the engine and said" what are those marks on those gears for? 20 minutes later it was running. Good luck

Gotta love 'em. A different perspective is sometimes all it takes.

Hang in there, cf, you'll get it worked out. I'd go with another carb to try. Go from there. If I remember from your pic of the carb, it looked like you had a bit of seepage from the gaskets on it. Who knows what is gummed up inside from sitting so long. I can't disagree with anything anybody said about cam timing, etc. but you need something to clear your head.

If you sold it, you'd hate to see it flying down the road like a banshee after putting all that work into it.

My Eagle was running rough and crappy when I got it, I bet the previous owner gave me the story about her daughter not liking the car because she just wanted rid of it. I redid a few things on it, went back to basics, and it purrs like a kitten now. It absolutely rocks. I should take it back to her and let her drive it now, she'd freak out.
 
Since I'm stuck inside today and can't cut firewood (got the flu last night :evil: ) I just re-read this thread.

#1. Your old distributor wasn't ever going to work with this carb, but you replaced it with one that should work fine.
#2. You have a lot bigger than stock cam. This will probably require quite a bit of initial ignition advance to work well. Maybe as much as 20 degrees BTDC. Yes, that will be way too much on the top end, but don't even worry about that now. You need to be able to idle before you have to worry about racing. If it requires that much advance to idle well, so be it. The mechanical advance will need to be limited for upper rpm running.
#3. The timing marks need to be verified if you haven't done it already. Not knowing where TDC is really at is like trying to measure your 1/4 mile times without knowing when you started. Not going to tell you much, is it?
#4. UNPLUG THE VACUUM ADVANCE!!! Not permanently, you will need it for better economy, but for now, you don't need that thing adding to your troubles. This engine will run fine without it, it will get better gas mileage with it. Once EVERYTHING else is dialed in, hook it back up.
#5. Do a compression check on all cylinders. If they are good, so is your cam timing (probably) If one or two holes are bad, check the valve adjustments. If they are all low, we'll do the cam timing procedure. Most folks will tell you that it requires a dial indicator and degree wheel, but I can get close enough to tell if the cam is a whole tooth off or not. Just mark the timing pulley and watch the valve action.
#6. Now that you KNOW where TDC is, set the timing at 20 degrees and try to start it. If the starter complains (kicks back, struggles to crank it) then back it off until it behaves. Try a little more and see what happens. 20 degrees should be enough though. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE TOP END YET.
#7. Buy, beg, borrow, whatever, get a different carb. Even a stock carb. Just long enough to get the thing running so as to prove the rest of the engine, then rebuild/replace the one you have.

Good luck,
Joe
 
Okay. This may be long but I will answer some history first:

12 years ago, my father and I rebuilt the engine. We added the Clifford header, 272 cam, Rhodes lifters, forged pistons, milled the head, added the 32/36 carb and adjustable rocker assembly. What we did not do was change the ignition at all or do any head work. The car ran pretty good, but was having compression problems on cylinders 1 & 6. Also, while I was at college, my dad put in a Mallory dizzy and ignition module. It would not start after that. when he put old igniton bad, it still would not start. Well, from there life, money, etc. prevented me from touching the car till last Spring.

Not knowing that much about cars, I sent the whole car to a garage. They pulled the engine and sent it to a engine shop that speciallizes in race engines. I also gave them the Si valves, springs, guides and locks and told them to spruce up the head. When it was all assembled and I got it back is when my problems started. The mechanic who owned th garage blamed it on the torque converter and said that would fix my problems. Since then, you guys know what has been happening.

Two things I receintly discovered when going through the box of parts the garage gave me back. They replaced the lifters and I am assuming they did not use rhodes lifters. Two, they called Clifford for the specs and for some reason, the paperwork says it is a 280 duration. Now I can't say for sure (it has been many years) but I SWEAR we bought the 272. Could this be a problem?

Whew...okay now an update.

Before I read all the new posts, I tried resetting the dizzy so the teeth were correct. I got it back in and still could not time it by the light, so I just tried doing it by ear. I ended up having to advance it quite a bit. I don't know what the initial timing is since I couldn't even see the mark at idle it was so advanced. Anyway, I got it running much, much better. The accelleration was there, no backfiring, and everything was just better - even the temperature.

However, when got back from testing it , I thought I had maybe put the dizzy one more tooth off the wrong direction (since I had to advance it so much) so I tried doing it again. Bad idea. It then took me 2 hours to get it back in. It would go in 3/4 of the way and not drop that last bit.

Is there some trick to installing the dizzy that I do not know?

Anyway, I finally got it back but I think I ended up putting it back where it was initially because now it drives like crap again. I have to advance it like crazy to run, but then it pings like mad under accelleration. If I bring the timing down so it wont ping, it runs terrible and even the trany wont shift right.

I am a broken man. I can't believe I have spent $3800 for a rebuild I can't drive. I am now considering saving my money, pulling the 200 and putting in a nice stock 289. At least that will be able to be worked on by a mechanic...

HELP!
 
Now we are getting somewhere :) The Rhodes lifters act to effectively REDUCE the duration/overlap of the cam. This allows a relatively 'hot' cam to have better idle and low speed characteristics and still give good high speed performance. Now that the Rhodes lifters are apparently gone, you have a pretty big cam that isn't getting the help from the Rhodes that it used to. This is what is requiring it to need so much ignition advance in order to idle. Trouble is, it is too much at higher speeds and pings as you have noted. The distributor advance curve needs to be altered (limited) to allow it to perform at both idle and high speed. Don't panic just yet, this isn't difficult to. The first thing I would do is to mark the crank pulley in Five degree increments up to at least 40 degrees. You can put some white adhesive tape around the pulley, and calculate from the circumference of the pulley how far apart the 5 degree marks need to be. Carefully mark these increments, then you can rev up the engine while checking with the timing light to see how far it advances. The initial advance will probably need to be around 20 degrees, and the full mechanical advance probably won't be happy much over 35 degrees (KEEP THAT VACUUM ADVANCE UNHOOKED FOR NOW!) Get it tuned to where it will idle, then you can move on to higher speeds. I can give you a more detailed description of installing the distributor if you need.
Joe
 
Thanks.

I will have to wait till next weekend (Sunday, I think. I am playing Paintball on Saturday plus the wife gets a little annoyed if I spend to much time in the garage) to look at it again, but I will do what you recommend. First, I think is marking the pully and seeing where I am at...
 
Dumb question, but is my initial timing seeming so far advanced because the (ported) vac line is hooked up to the dizzy when trying to time it?

Should it ever be hooked up when setting timing? Should the car be in gear or in park?
 
Your 1st question's answer is no, and it should not effect it at all.
The ported vacuum should only supply a vacuum source when the engine is at higher rpms and not at normal idle. And, always unhook and plug the vacuum source (ported vacuum from carb) from the dizzy when setting the initial timing. If you don't and adjust your timing with it on, you might be advancing it futher than what it has to be.
 
is my initial timing seeming so far advanced because the (ported) vac line is hooked up to the dizzy when trying to time it?

Just wanted to add to this... It is possible that it would IF your idle speed screw was/is in far enough to start the ported vacuum... the pick-up point for ported vacuum is just above the throttle blades, so if they are open past that point it would have vacuum.

So it is always a good idea to disconnect the hose from the vacuum advance when you are setting your initial timing.
 
Theoretically, the ported source should not contribute at idle. However, it sounds like your idle has been all over the place and your distributor and engine are no longer stock components. If the ported source is actually advancing the timing, then when you set the timing to the initial timing specs, your timing will be retarded relative to what it would be if the vacuum advance contribution was removed. Your engine would have difficulty at idle, lack power at part throttle, and operate at higher temperatures.
 
Which is why I said twice and will say yet again, UNHOOK THE VACUUM ADVANCE UNTIL THE REST OF THE SYSTEM IS SORTED OUT!!!!!!! :lol:
Joe
 
Update!

Sorry it took so long to update this tread, but here is what is happening.

A month or so ago, a member of the forums here (who shall remain nameless because I don't know if they want the credit or not yet, either way - thanks man!) offered to rebuild my Weber for me. I packed it up and sent it to him. He took it apart and soaked it and found that some of the jets and the accelerator pump were clogged with varnish. Yes...the carb did sit a loooong time with fuel in it. It was also jetted quite wacky.

They were:

-------------------- On Carb-----Suggested
Primary Main:-----140----------140
Secondary Main:--140----------140
Primary Air:-------110----------190
Secodary Air:-----160----------180
Primary Idle:-------65-----------75
Secondary Idle:----65-----------65


Well, I put it back on and tightened every thing down and it was better. However, I found I still had to turn out the idle mixture screw quite a bit to smooth out the idle and the idle screw has to be turned almost all the way to get it to idle. I did find a few new problems. The fuel line to the carb was leaking so I replaced that tonight and one of the studs from the carb to the adapter is stripped so I can't tighten is all the way down. The nut just sort of spins. There does not appear to be a vacuum leak there, but I will replace it...better safe than sorry.

Next, I ordered some new jets to get it to match that post somewhere on here about jetting a Weber. So far, I just set the primary idle jet to a 75 and gave it a try. Well, it is even better. It will idle, although I still have to keep the idle at about 1200 in park so that when I put it in gear it does not stall. Pickup is pretty good on the low side, but I still do not seem to have a passing gear yet. If I step on it, acceleration still appears to be the same as half way. A little later this week, I will try and adjust the timing and report back.

If anyone has any idea as to why I don't seem to have any passing gear, I am taking suggestions.
 
Check your vacuum line to the modulator on the tranni. If it is disconnected it won't down shift. If it is connected make sure it's in good shape and not leaking. Make sure you have a good manifold signal. If all is well replace the modulator.

Good luck, Ric.
 
Check the vac line at the trans modulator-mine had gone soft from a small leak at the tranny and it was leaking. Stupid question-did the cable from the accellerator arm to the tranny linkage fall off or break? This would definateley explain no passing gear-mine is disconnected right now for modification with the same outcome. There is also an adjustment that can be made to the length of said cable. If it is not pulling far enough on the linkage...As I offered before, should ya need help, don't hesitate as we live close together.
 
John,

Would a vac leak there cause tuning problems?

I definately remember the offer and may take you up on it. My weekends are pretty busy through Memorial Day (besides, Cleveland weather till June is just so unpredictable), but things should lighten up in June.

I am having a devil of a time getting it timed and then tuned right, so maybe together we can finally get it figured out!

Thanks,
Chris
 
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