All Small Six Camshaft endplay

[clochard68]

I measured the camshaft endplay again today, and got 0.017" endplay. Is that ok?

Online I read 0.012" is the max endplay for the 200 (should even be 0.004"-0.008").

So do I have to trim the wedding ring?
How would I do that?

 

[clochard68]

I have a Goodson grinding stone for block surfaces, I could sand the ring on it?

 

[frozenrabbit]

Why would you make MORE endplay?
You need a new thrust plate and/or wedding ring.

 

[pmuller9]

Yes you can sand the ring with a stone but first, did the ring get installed with the bevel towards the cam face?

 

[clochard68]

Yes you can sand the ring with a stone but first, did the ring get installed with the bevel towards the cam face?

Yes the bevel was facing the cam bearing shoulder.

Thanks, then I will carefully get the ring to where it should be...

 

[clochard68]

Why would you make MORE endplay?
You need a new thrust plate and/or wedding ring.

There are two contact points from the cam assembly to the thrust plate. First the cam bearing shoulder, second the cam gear. The distance between these two points is given by the wedding ring.

So for less clearance there are two options: a thinner ring or a thicker thrust plate.

 

[frozenrabbit]

I'm wrong, I was thinking the wedding ring contacts the thrust plate instead of the cam gear. Aftermarket thrust plate?

 

[clochard68]

I already sanded the wedfing ring, but did sometjing stupid and sanded too much!

Now I have to buy a new ring anyway.

IF ANYBODY HAS A SPARE RING WHO WOULD SELL IT PLEASE LET ME KNOW!

 

[drag-200stang]

Is the 2-hole retainer in good shape? Next time check end play before putting pin in may save some headaches. Could measure spacer and retainer first to see if jacked.
Do not get frustrated keep at with a cool head, you will get it.

 

[clochard68]

Thanks for the kind words, sometimes it can be quite frustrating

I thought everything through again and realized maybe I even had luck with destroying the ring. My measuring tool is in millimeters and I think I got some measurements wrong, and I wouldn't even have realized it if it wasn't for my mistake!

So the ideal clearance should be 0.004" to 0.008", thats 0.1mm to 0.2mm.
With my dial gauge I measured a camshaft play of 0.04mm, but I thought I measured 0.4mm! I feel so dumb right now...

So I think I will have a new and thicker ring custom made on monday altough I already have one ordered from vintageinlines.

At least I didn't put it all together with the wrong clearances, thinking everything is fine

 

[drag-200stang]

My book says .001'' -.007'' .... .008'' is too much .001 is too tight, If you are .002''- .007'' call it good Less than .007'' would be better. Midpoint would be close to .004''
Through that mm stuff in the trash this is America.

 

[65MustangI6]

I'm having a similar issue, about .016" endplay, but I don't believe it's the thrust plate or wedding ring that's the problem. The wedding ring does not contact the thrust plate, nor do I believe it should, and when the cam is pushed all the way forward the ring aligns with the front of the thrust plate. What stops the cam moving forward is the number one journal shoulder against the thrust plate. (See photo)

When I pulled the cam out to troubleshoot, I noticed at the camshaft rear bore plug a lip on the backside of bearing four. From what I can tell, it appears the bore plug is the rear stop for the camshaft. (If I'm wrong, feel free to correct.) I'm thinking that when I drove in the bore plug I did not go deep enough and the plug should be driven until it hits that lip and stops. That would make the plug pretty deep since it's currently installed slightly below the beveled edge as you would expect. (See photo).

I don't know if this is similar to what you found when you were doing your troubleshooting, but I'd be curious to know. Or, if anyone has any other thoughts please feel free to share. My plan at the moment is to head back to the machine shop to discuss with them.

 

[clochard68]

.... From what I can tell, it appears the bore plug is the rear stop for the camshaft. ...

The cam gear shoulder is the rear stop! Mount the gear onto the cam, thighten cam bolt, then remeasure and you will have a lot less play.

The cam assembly has two contact points against the thrust plate: the first cam bearing shoulder for the forward motion, the cam gear shoulder for the rearward motion of the cam. The wedding ring has to be slightly thicker than the thrust plate. The amount the ring is thicker than the thrust plate equals the camshaft endplay.

I hope that clarifies your question

 

[drag-200stang]

X2 and your rear cam plug looks fine.

 

[65MustangI6]

Thanks clochard68 and drag200stang, I owe you one! It makes sense the amount of ring past the front of the thrust plate is the camshaft endplay. Unfortunately, my ring barely extends beyond the thrust plate. I had to use a straight edge to even confirm that it did extend beyond. I decided to go ahead and add the cam sprocket and torqued to spec to confirm my suspicion. Unfortunately, I was right and there was no endplay. I'll need to find a larger wedding ring or add a spacer to get my to the .001" to .007" endplay tolerance. Nevertheless, you guys put me on the right track and it is greatly appreciated!

 

[drag-200stang]

This is not a normal problem. Where did you get the cam spacer? and where did you get the two-hole thrust plate/retainer from? Did the cam turn ok before tightening the sprocket bolt and then did it not turn when tight?
Is there nicks or debris between cam journal face and the retainer. I will go measure what I have. You could carefully sand the retainer down some if you truly are tight.

 

[drag-200stang]

Ok, was111 has previously measured .165'' on the cam spacer and I just measured .166'' on cam spacer and I got .161'' on the thrust plate/ retainer, I could be off .001'', but this will give you something to go by.
PS cam spacer = wedding ring. it is slang.

 

[65MustangI6]

During the planning stage of this rebuild I decided to upgrade the cam and went to a Comp Cam 65-236-4. I removed the old wedding ring/spacer and dowel pin from the original cam and installed them on the new cam (bevel side towards number one cam journal). The retainer (assuming you're talking about the thrust plate) is also from the original engine as it was in good shape. Cam turned great both before and after installing the sprocket. (I also upgraded to the double-roller timing chain.) The only reason I was looking for a larger or additional spacer is to get forward and rear thrust within the .001" to .007" tolerance. As it sits, there is none and my thinking is that there should be at least minimal forward and back cam movement. Thanks for the measurements, I'll check that next.

 

[drag-200stang]

Yes, in my neck of the woods we call the thrust plate a retainer in the books it is called a thrust plate, old habits die hard and in the book's wedding ring is just spacer.
I do not see how it would be too tight using factory parts. You do not want it sloppy sliding back and forth.

 

[wsa111]

I already sanded the wedfing ring, but did sometjing stupid and sanded too much!

Now I have to buy a new ring anyway.

IF ANYBODY HAS A SPARE RING WHO WOULD SELL IT PLEASE LET ME KNOW!

Vintage Inlines lists them on their website.