Engine rebuild for daily

[1966Mustang]

Wow, this looks like the exact post I was going to make today - I have the same pics of my pushrods! I don't have one that looks like spaghetti, although I do have about 4 or 5 bent ones, with the same scoring. On a 'lucky' note, I do have the adjustable rocker arms, so I got that going for me.

This all started as a 'Lemme fix that leaky carb' exercise... then progressed to head removal. Suppose this weekend the block may be coming out.

 

[69.5Mav]

electrorc

800 mile drives to and from college

College huh, OK. Do you have the summer to work on this or are you pressed for time?
Did the same thing to my '61 chevy while a junior at U of Iin the summer while I worked at a gas station. It thru a Rod bearing so I completely rebuilt it.

Is there any good way to check the timing chain?

The way I due it is to
1. Put a socket wrenk on the Balencer hold down bolt.
2. Rotake the crank clockwise for 1/4 revolution clock wise then 1/4 revolution counter clock wise.
3. watch the distributor rotor for how long in degrees it take to change dirrection when you change dirrection of the crank rotation at both changes.
You'll need the distributor installed for this but it does not have to be timed, any old way is fine, time it later.

Also when you due the final install of the distributor make sure by watching the valves as you rotate the engine to TDC that you are on the compression stroke not the exhaust stroke. Installing the distributor on TDC of the exhaust stroke is called 180 out because yoor spark will come at TDC of the exhaust stroke when all the gas is in the exhaust pipe.

Budget... pretty tight.

OK, buget rebuild.
1. Definately get a valve job done on what ever head you install. The best thing for performance is a three angle valve job.
2. Get an adjustable Rocker arm setup with new push rods (all). Your best bet here is to goto Mike's page for it

http://www.classicinlines.com/products.asp?cat=38

Product ID: RAS-200-ARA
Adjustable 1.5 Rocker Assembly Details

Rebuilt adjustable rocker arm assembly with 1.5 stock rocker ratio. Fully assembled and ready to bolt on. Fits all 170/200/250ci engines.

NOTE: Requires ball and cup pushrods

Price includes a $50 refundable core charge.
Please see our Core Refund Policy for more information.

See Details for more information.

List Price: $175.00
Price: $195.00


Product ID: RAS-200-ANP
Chrome Moly Push Rods (170/200ci) Details

These non-oiling chrome moly push rods fit 170/200ci motors with adjustable rockers. For use with adjustable rocker assemblies or with Classic Inlines roller tipped rocker assemblies.

See Details for more information.

List Price: $55.00
Price: $45.00

3: While the pan is off you should Plasti gage the rod bearings. Lots of how to link out there here's one.

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/ar ... cleID=1213

Also think about a new oil pump.

Product ID: MEL-200-OIL
Melling Oil Pump Details

Melling Oil Pumps utilize the very latest in pump technology and offers the finest quality available, so you can install a Melling oil pump with confidence and pride.

See Details for Application Chart.

Oil Pump: Please Select...M65 - add (+$15.00) M65-A M65-B M82 - add (+$5.00)

Price: $44.95

4. The rest depends on what you find as you examin the engine.

I noticed in one of your bottom end pictures there was some coolant of the rod cap, how did it get there?

I'd like to get disc brakes up front.

The engine will probobly use most of your 2k budget. Disk Brake will cost around 500 and you will most likely need new wheels as well. My advice would be to save the disk brakes for next year and do a quality rebuild on the drums you've got for now.

Oh and by the way it's is obvious you will need one new lifter. If you can use the new lifter to "repair" the old one that would be best cause the cam and lifter wear in together and a new one may flatten the lobe.

 

[1966Mustang]

I would possibly make brakes a priority - safety second... I mean, if you're driving back and forth, you probably need to stop at some point. Plus, you can get rid of the single master cylinder. I used the CSRP kit in the front with a brake booster and had the rear axle and drums redrilled for 5 lug. Wasn't that painful, and well worth it.

 

[electrorc]

I have the summer--it just needs to be done and have me comfortable driving it around by mid-August.

If I did it correctly, the distributor rotor changed direction practically as soon as I switched direction on rotating the engine.
The coolant is from me being kind of careless--I was guessing the short block was going to be in pretty poor condition, and I didn't bother draining the coolant out of the block. I drained the radiator and all of the hoses, but I just couldn't really got the drain plug off on the block. So when I pulled the head, I still got coolant where it doesn't belong.

I found a '77 Granada head around an hour away, so I may check into that. That will have a different sized carb opening, like 1.75" vs 1.5" correct? Will I need to get a new carb and stuff then?

Since I'd like to pull the block to paint it and clean up the engine bay a little, I might go ahead and take it to a shop and have them check it over depending on how much they'll charge. That way I can make sure I'm not going to miss something simple.

And disc brakes are definitely on my list of things to get done this summer. Those drums don't give a whole lot of confidence, nor does the single master cylinder.

Good luck on getting yours figured out, 1966Mustang!

 

[69.5Mav]

Electroc

I have the summer

Good, you should have just enough time but be quick.

distributor rotor changed direction practically as soon as I switched direction on rotating the engine

Sounds like your timing chain is ok. It looked like a double roller to me from your pics, that’s good.

'77 Granada head around an hour away

Have you priced a Valve job yet?

different sized carb opening, like 1.75" vs 1.5" correct? Will I need to get a new carb and stuff then?

Most likely a 1.75". Don't know if you will need a new carb but if you due get a Holly/Weber 5200. Langdons stovebolt sells them and an adapter.

http://www.stoveboltengineco.com/

Holley Weber Rebuilt
Price: $75.00

2 BBL Progressive Carb (Shown with water heated choke)(Electric choke available)

Adapter 1 BBL to 2 BBL
Price: $15.00

For use ONLY with Holley/Weber and Carter/Weber Carbs

Brushed Air Cleaner
Price: $30.00

7 1/2" Hellings Style. Shown with base plates for either Carter / Weber or Holley / Weber carbs, stud, wing nut and air filter.

The whole thing cost $120 plus shipping

take it to a shop and have them check it over depending on how much they'll charge

Make sure they don't just tear into it and get firm cost before starting with alerts when they find anything that will cost more.

disc brakes are definitely on my list of things to get done this summer

I understand the need for better brakes and if your engine was not sick and disassembled I would say do the brakes first. But your budget is limited and already it will be hard pressed to get the work done on the engine. Drum brakes have been stopping car reliably for almost a century. Are Disk brakes better, YES. But with a QUALITY rebuild on your drum brakes they can be made serviceable. You can switch to a dual master cylinder without upgrading to disk brakes. Find a 70's or newer ford in the junk yard and take whatever lines and parts you'll need to do it. When pricing the disk brake conversion don't forget to price new wheels and tires as wheel.

As for your budget I would recommend starting a spread sheet and filling in the prices of things. You don't want to blow through your budget and not even know it.

 

[David_Conwill]

I'm reading this post with great interest, because my skills are about on par with the original poster's, and my '61 is my DD.

Can anyone shed some light on why the valves hang up from sitting, how to diagnose it, and what treatment is prescribed?

-Dave

 

[Frankenstang]

Can anyone shed some light on why the valves hang up from sitting, how to diagnose it, and what treatment is prescribed?

Dave, one reason often cited for stuck vavles seems to be overheating issues...but I think this is more relevant to valves sticking while in use in more modern engines. In our older engines I believe the main cause of stuck valves is due to long periods of sitting. Old oil, contaminents from blow-by, corrosion and etc can make for a sticky varnish/glue like build up between the guides and the valve stems...given time to setup and they can stick. As well these engines can develop condesation during short sporadic run cycles in cool damp temps and this would aid corrosion between the guides and stems if the engine is not operated to full temp and run through the range occassionally and then allowed to sit.

I had a stuck valve on my current set up after a long sit (more than a couple years without even being started ). It bent a push rod, but luckily it was more like electrorc's #3 push rod...not very bad, and had moved it's way out from under the rocker arm...or it might have caused more damage. Tapping the valve loose and installing new pushrod was all that was required...although I think that lifter suffered some excessive wear in the process and is now a little noisy on and off.

EDIT: As for detecting stuck valves or non seating/sealing valves, AFAIK "best" way to check for stuck valves is combination of compression and leakdown tests...a quick search should give you good tips on performing those. Visual inspection with valve cover off and turning engine over is "quick & dirty" method (how I found mine), also gives you a chance to inspect oiling operation of rocker assembly. In general, a stuck valve is a significant vacuum leak and will usually show itself in that way...a consistent miss throught the rpm range.

As for treatment, I think it depends on the severity of the problem...I got lucky. Sometimes new valves and guides could be required. On the other hand is electrorc's case which seems exceptional where he seems to have suffered some traumatic valvetrain failure (possibly more from fouled up clearance issues during prior build that bent rods and possibly stems). In his situation I like 69.5mav's thought on finding a reputable, trustworthy machine shop to check and inspect the block carefully (preferably one that can resolve & head off any valvetrain issues as needed). I also like his plan to go with a later model, better flowing head with bigger valves (maybe even a 2bbl conversion ) to better tap the potential of the 200.

BTW @ electrorc...if you haven't already discovered this, there's lots of info here and on ci's website (If I were in your shoes I'd seriously consider them for the head work, as well as other parts to get your build setup right) along with the Schjeldahl's book http://falconperformance.sundog.net/ which is an invaluable resource for learning as you go along with a FSM.
Good luck!

 

[David_Conwill]

Frankenstang,

Thanks so much for the reply. You can’t beat talking to someone who knows these engines and their common maladies. Sometimes it’s a lot easier to find the go-fast knowledge than it is the routine stuff, and diagnosis is not my strong point.


Electrorc,

Sorry to butt in on your post, but your situation sounds like mine, albeit more severe: My car sat for a while before I acquired it, and while it drives fine, it’s constantly chattering and always quietly and irregularly popping at idle. I’m wondering if I don’t have a valve hanging open.

I’ll sit back now and just soak up the knowledge.

-Dave

 

[69.5Mav]

Any Progress?

 

[electrorc]

Sorry about the lack of updates; I haven't really made any progress. I finally found someone I could borrow an engine hoist from, so I can pull the engine now. I also found a shop that said they would inspect the block and see what all needs to be done for me.

I also have the Performance Handbook and have flipped through it numerous times.
There's a 200 out of a '74 Maverick fairly close to me for $75, but it needs to rebuilt. If I end up needing to rebore this block or anything like that I'll probably see about picking that up so that I can easily upgrade to a better trans since that shouldn't really drive the cost up. If I still stick with the '65 block, does anybody know anything about that 2.77 to 3.03 adapter I mentioned in the first post?

Dave: No worries about your posts. It's all useful info.

 

[JackFish]

That Mav motor might be a 250.

 

[electrorc]

Alrighty so... an update. I got the engine to a shop and they said it's going to need a total rebuild. As for why the pushrods were bent, they said it had probably been over-revved. I don't have quite enough money for that at the moment, especially to do a little more than just a stock one. The engine is sitting in my garage now and I'm trying to figure out exactly what I want to do. If I can't find an engine in decent condition around me, I'm going to have to wait until I get back from school in December to get another engine in the car.

I've been thinking about doing a 250 swap if this engine didn't work out, but I'm having trouble finding what all is needed to do that in a '65. I know the height is an issue and the Maverick mounts are talked about, but are they absolutely necessary? I don't really want to drill new holes for those mounts right now.

Otherwise, I'm looking for a little later 200 that will let me use a stronger transmission.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

 

['68falconohio]

If you start looking in the Ohio area let me know, I have spare engines/transmissions and wayyy too many friends that chuck the six for a bent9.

 

[early ford fan]

[
Otherwise, I'm looking for a little later 200 that will let me use a stronger transmission.

Thanks for the help, everyone.[/quote]


from what i understand the three speed used with the 68 and later 200s is unbreakable by a 200.

 

[69.5Mav]

How's it going?

Have you thought about getting a rebiult short or long block?
Check out this Link
http://remanufactured.com/Ford_6_Cylinder_Engines.htm
They have 200 long blocks for about $1600 delivered and core charge included.

I have no experience with them but they clain a very large inventory

 

[electrorc]

I'm done messing with it for now; I'm leaving for college tomorrow night.

I looked through a bunch of companies like that, but I pretty much decided I didn't trust any of them. The ones I found reviews for were generally quite poor, with mismatched parts being a common complaint. I'm sure many of them are quite good and of course most reviews are going to be the negative ones, since disappointed people are generally more apt to let people know of problems than those who had a good experience to share it. But for me, I figured it would just be easier and safer to go with a local shop where I could actually check on progress and talk to them, especially since shipping runs a few hundred on top for most. I did check with one of them and they said they didn't stock these engines and they would need to rebuild mine.

While I'm at college, I'm going to be keeping an eye out for a good rebuildable 200 (or maybe 250) block along with the later bellhousing and a 3.03 3 speed or better trans. Then I'll try to get it built locally with some modifications like I wanted in the first place. I figure it'll work out better that way.

Thanks for checking in.

 

[69.5Mav]

I'm done messing with it for now; I'm leaving for college tomorrow night.

After a years hiatus what kind of progress has been made and what are your plans?

 

[jimlj66]

When I started reading this I didn't realize it was over a year old. I'll still through my $.02 in, even if it isn't worth that much.

If it were me, I'd find a good used engine. There are hundreds of them laying around. A compression test will give you a fairly good idea of it's condition. I got a whole car (82 Merc Zephyr) with a good running 6 from a junk yard for cheap. Put the used engine in you Mustang and drive/enjoy it. If you still need more power, find another engine and spend the time and money to build it right.

You seem set on disk brakes, but as mentioned earlier, drums have been stopping cars safely for a lot of years. For about $50, you can upgrade to a duel bowl master cylinder. It may not stop you any better than the single bowl, but you have back up if you ever spring a leak in one of your brake lines. Spend another $50 and replace the 46 year old brake hoses that are probably on your car. You can buy a good engine for the money you just saved on disk brakes.

I hope you haven't gotten discouraged and walked away. It's great fun to cruise around in a classic car. If you are in college, I assume you are 30ish years younger than most folks here. It's great to see someone besides an old fat guy (I resemble that remark) driving one of these cars.

 

[electrorc]

Thanks for checking in and the advice.
This is where I am and my plans:
A local shop is rebuilding a '66 short block for me, and redoing my '63 head as well. It has a 264/264-110 cam, 302HP springs (if they can get them to work), and a little bit of decking on the block, though not zero decked. Stock otherwise. So once I get that back, I'll finish assembling the engine. Over time I'll probably be adding performance parts, but at least it'll be a good foundation to build off of.

I also got a package deal of a different '66 block (needs rebuilt) with a '67 bellhousing and 3.03 3 speed trans off of Craigslist. I'll be using the bellhousing, trans, clutch, flywheel, etc. on the '66 being rebuilt. That'll alleviate my transmission concerns.

In the mean time, I'm very slowly working on replacing rear torque boxes, full length floor pans, seat pans, front frame rail extensions, and toe boards. All on both driver and passenger sides. I'm also going to try to get the engine bay cleaned up a little bit since the engine is out. I'll also be replacing the hard fuel lines and some of the hard brake lines as well. Additionally, I have the lines necessary to convert to a dual bowl master cylinder, so I'll be doing that too. I'll probably just keep the drums for now, but at some point I'll probably do the CSRP disc brakes and swap to an 8" rear end.

I'm assuming it's ok to post this, but here's a blog about it if anybody is interested: http://65ssg.dyndns.org It'll probably be a little bit on the slow side though.

 

[69.5Mav]

Electrorc

Glad to here your back at it. Semms like the project grew some but it never hurts to do it right.

Good Luck

Keepus informed of your progress.

We all like to here success stories!