Fabricating an EFI manifold for the 250-2v?

[Anonymous]

My first post here, and I'm gonna dive right in to the guts!

Just got hold of a 250-2v head, with no manifold.
I'm fairly decent at fabrication, so I have no issues with building my own parts...
At the moment, I can't see why port injection wouldnt be a good thing on the 2v head (after a bit of port work, exhaust ports mainly), all cylinders getting a nice even dose of juice, plus I get to build my own wierdarsed manifold (and I have some pretty good ideas for it, both cosmetic and functional).
But...

What am I going to need for it, how much work would it be?
The computer, the senders, the injectors, and a pump, is that all? (how much, new/secondhand)

I could get all/most off an XE/XF Falcon couldnt I, and wouldnt be much hassle at all to switch all the electronics over to the 2v (and XA Falcon wagon, and I'm a decent sparky). But at that rate, why don't I just plonk the EFI 4.1 in...
Because I lose the appeal of the old 2v...

But the one BIG reason I'm thinking about injection, is for LPG.
Anyone know about LPG injection?
I'm assuming it would be relativly straight forward, and similar to the petrol efi, just a change of the injectors and fuel delivery...
(cost, availabilty, skill needed?)


Or should I just whack triple webers on it?

*about my design for an efi manifold, each cylinder has its own throtle body and runner, the butterfly valves are all connected on the same straight bar running right through them all to avoid linkage problems.
I like the idea of efi, because its simplicity in the mechanics, and the hard stuffs left to a computer, but I hate leaving things in control of electronics

 

[Anonymous]

Why not a single TB on a large box feeding the runners to the individual cylinders?
Would you put the injectors on the head or in the fabricated intake runners?

 

[Asa]

Why not a single TB on a large box feeding the runners to the individual cylinders?

you'd have the same problem as the log head, too much air trying to go through too small of a hole

multi-TBIs would work much better if you were gonna go that way

i think that every cyl having it's own throttle body is a bit much...

 

[addo]

I reckon he got this head from a wrecking yard in Auckland. Alloydave pinched the fanimold about five minutes beforehand (he wrote about it, in the Aussie Sixes).

 

[MustangSix]

look at www.sdsefi.com for some ideas. Great site.

 

[aussie7mains]

Lovely idea but at pressent theres no practical injector to do it, wait a while the company i work for may come up with one very soon.
As a side issue I am observing natural gas truck engines on the engine dyno, they one is running 190kpa manifold pressure, 11.4 comp and at full torque needs 30degrees advance to produce that output, this is at lambda 1.4.
No petrol will go within a bulls roar of that sort on knock resistance.
A7M

 

[Anonymous]

The only reason I'm going for a TB on each cylinder (TB being a little bigger than the port) is for the look, each runner will be angled up, around 45 degree's.
The injectors would be just after the throttle bodys, and a wee bit before the ports.

I'd probably end up trialing a few designs, the other being one TB for each 2 cylinders using the same style as above.
And then maybe some reminescent of the loghead, but the intake/TB being at the front of the log (front of engine).



The other thing I was thinking of:
Twin turbo 2v head, LPG injected, no intercoolers, one wastegate per turbo...
Would it work, what size turbo's and how much?
The reason I want no intercooling, is because I dont want to cut anything up and want minimal plumbing/pipe work to keep it tidy (becaus of the pre-xflow design). The LPG would act as an air cooling agent wouldnt it?

If i go the LPG turbo route, then one lpg carb per turbo.


Or I can just say bugger it, and use the 2 single barrel stromies I have lying around.... :roll:

 

[xctasy]

Sorry about the irrationality of this post. I'm passionate about LPG.

First up, copy Buicksixe's 265 Chrysler engine. It runs three 225 Impco carbs. If you log on to Inliners International, you'll see a few photos of it. It basically runs an Offenhauser/Ford Shelby style linkage which adds the outer carbs to a 2-bbl inner carb when the throttle is more than a 60% open.

My views on LPG in Oz/Nz

In the next 10 years in Australia, LPG will gain in popularity, but methane will leap ahead more in the US. Until municipal landfills blead off CNG in New Zealand and Austraila, it will be a safe bet to persist with LPG rather then CNG. Like low suphur diesels and CNG fuels, we are way behind the ball the Europeans. Why do you think Impco, the famous US LPG and CNG equipment maker, have taken a huge share out of the leading Italian BRC firm? It's because proper port LPG injection can't work without extensive and expensive staging pumps, special injectors, and a fully mapped ECM which includes a full 3d ignition ramp.

If the 1994 Parnell, Biopase and Liquiquip systems were so good, all Falcon E-Gas cars would run them. They don't. They run an optimized system which works well enough for taxis.

I've followed Chryslers foray into natural gas, and all I can say is LPG injection is nasty in comparison to CNG. The current LPG is only 99 octane, while CNG sits at around 130. Even producer gas is better than LPG for octane rating.

CNG is getting a huge push because its basically methane, and ever since 2003's Dodge Charger show car, there have been massive leaps ahead in fuel cells. If you look at the vacuum resreviour for the HVAC untit on an XF Falcon, spheridoal forms are able to carry very good volumes. The existing LPG engines are missing reliable sparking and are octane restrictied, and CNG engines have always been compression and igniton limited. The advances in CNG tecnology out weigh the loss in volume in the tank over LPG.

My advise

For your car, go and grab three 225 Impco carbs, and run an EA TBI intake. Weld two extra 225's on the outer parts, and have them vacuum operated to chime in at low vaccum. You can use either two ED to BA vacuum canistors to open the outer carbs, or the 4-bbl vac sec Holley dashpots with a vaccum port off the centre carb.

My concerns over the electronic lpg

All electronic systems are optimised by experts, and I have servere reservations over your saftey on anything other than a triple carb set-up.

An cobbled up LPG injector will kill you.

 

[Anonymous]

[/quote]
you'd have the same problem as the log head, too much air trying to go through too small of a hole
[/quote]

You're not thinking 'out of the box'. Most, if not all, factory performance cars are fed by one throttle body feeding individual runners.

 

[Anonymous]

That sounds like a nice idea xtaxi!
About LPG injection, I sure as hell wasnt planing to just cobble some halfarsed plan together, and I would use something thats already out there.
Gas is just too dangerous for that sort of play.

I found this, but it wasnt what I thought it was, just a way to run LPG on an EFI engine without the computer having a fit (i think)
http://www.chrisperfect.com/products/lp ... ystem.html

And theres also this:
http://www.chrisperfect.com/products/lp ... ystem.html
It would be ideal, and probably going overboard, for if you want the engine to look chunky... Not really what I want though, but it would cut down hassles with tuning multiple carbs...

Well, I'm off to put my 250 (non 2v) back in the XA, just had to change the clutch, fuel pump, carby, distributor... All stuffed...