Got the D8 Head from the shop

[ski4evr]

I'm quite frustrated. About two months ago, I got the head from a shop in CA (I live in CT) and I had to send it back. I specified 46cc chambers and a 30 degree back cut on the intake valves. All the chambers measured between 54-56cc's when I got it. I'm glad I measured. I footed the bill for sending it back to them. Two months later... I get it back. I have not measured the chambers yet, but I checked the valves (did not check them the first time - I should have...). I borrowed a valve spring compressor and looked at one exhaust and one intake valve. There are pictures below showing what I found:

Intake valve:

I don't see a 30 degree back cut - only the standard 45 degree face cut

Exhaust valve:

Looks like the intake cut

Intake port:

Question - A three angle valve job has a 30/45/60 cut. On the side away from the spark plug, you can see the three angled cuts. But, on the side adjacent to the spark plug, only two angled cuts can be seen. Is this normal or did the shop do a sloppy job with the cuts? I would assume that the 30/45/60 cuts would be uniform all the way around.

Exhaust port:

Same non-uniform 30/45/60 cuts

A frustrated ski

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Ski:

It is not uncommon to have the last angle disappear into the short side radius of the intake port, especially when using 1.75" or larger intake valves. It is caused by a combination of the tight turn of the port, irregular castings, sunken seats and/or a fairly large intake valve.

Sorry for your frustrations. It is surely helpful to find a machine shop and machinist who shares our our concern for details and care. And an absolute pain to have to work with one that doesn't!

Adios, David

 

[ski4evr]

Thanks David. The info on the three angle valve job helps out on the frustration part. I'm going to go and measure the chamber cc's again. I told them to mill 50 thousanths to get from 56cc to the requested 46cc. Hopefully they did that. As far as the valves... can I send just the intake valves to them and have the 30 back cut done or does the shop need the head again? I'm assuming just the valves.

ski

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy back Ski:

Yea, just the valves, but number them and make sure they go back into the same hole they came out of.

Am I reading this right? You live in Connecticut and you had the head done in California?

Adios, David

 

[ski4evr]

Just measured the #1 chamber. It came out to 46cc's. So the thumb rule of 10 mills for every 2 cc's is right on for that range of chamber size (56-46cc)

David - yes you read correctly. It was only $215 to my door. I still have to send back my '66 head though. So... tack on the shipping of my core and the price climbs up to ~ $280. I think it's a good deal... but, with having to send it back once already and it not being correct again (the intake valves this time)... I'm tempted to tell them to refund my $ and send me a container with postage already paid for me to send them their head back.

ski

 

[Guest]

Yeah, Id be mad too. Try a local shop, and have all valves marked as well (if theyre not already). That is bs work, as nice as what they DID do looks. I dont trust any company where I cant look and talk to them face to face, and give my evil snare and a face to face complaint department if they screw up...twice. Usually that works out to a good deal on the third "attempt", or a free 5 angle with a refund on (the 5 angle) or similar. Nice of them to hide it behind a valve spring etc. all assembled. Youd have never known if you didnt check...

I have a shop that I go to whose owner used to shop at my dads old shop when he was a teenager. I guess my dad inspired him. Anyways, Im known by all people there, and if I dont want to drive 90 miles each way for some minor machining, I get it done there (as well as plenty of parts). I get cuts on prices. Get in with the greasers at the local machine shop. Theyll love your car, theyll probably love you.

I try as much as possible not to deal with the large chains on parts...our local Auto Zone has a young female as the manager...and no offense to women car-heads, but this one dont know <b>squat</b>.

 

[ski4evr]

I'm tempted to tell them to refund my $ and send me a container with postage already paid for me to send them their head back.

I don't want to sound picky or grumpy with the above statement, but I specifically asked on several ocassions about the 46cc chamber size and the 30 back cut on the intake valves. The company rep I always spoke with assured me that the head was rebuilt to my specifications and he even repeated the specifications back to me. Ugghhh!

Prior to them sending the head back to me the second time, I asked about the 30 degree back cut. I told him that I had not checked for that the first time. He said "Yes, the intake valves have the 30 degree back cut."

Calmly counting to 10... 1, 2, 3...

ski

 

[Anonymous]

just the valves, but number them and make sure they go back into the same hole they came out of.

For what reason?

I haven't ever done this because I make sure they are all the same.

Switching them from one hole to another wouldn't hurt anything...........because they are all the same.

 

[ski4evr]

For what reason?

Good form, maybe? Doesn't the shop "grind them" in place once they are inserted into the head to ensure a good seal?

ski

 

['61 Draggin Wagon]

Each valve is supposed to be "lapped" in. Which means that they smear lapping compound(gritty paste) on the valve sealing surface & spin the valve. This roughens up the seat & valve face so that you get a complete seal. IF this is done, the valve face & seat should have a roughened up, gray appearance. Also, ideally, the gray "ring" on the valve face should be in the center of the valve face.
So to answer your question; yes, after grinding the valves, they should stay with that valve seat.
ski4ever: I'd take the head to a local shop & have them straighten out whatever you consider incorrect & chalk it up to experience. And be sure to give the original shop as much bad press as possible.
Darryl

 

[ski4evr]

Thanks '61 Draggin Wagon.

It's a bummer when experience costs $.

ski

 

[Anonymous]

I never lap valves.

If the machine work was done right, then lapping is an old-timers complete waste of time.

 

[addo]

Interesting conflict of ideas here on the lapping!

Ski, always confirm in writing. If you agree to send someone the head, send it without any instructions, then fax through signed and dated details. That way you have a fax transmission slip as proof of sending the info.

It's very hard for the shop to then say "nobody told us anything" as generally they will pick the eyes out of your to-do list and ignore the bits they don't understand. That's good, incriminating stuff.

Payment is due at completion of the agreed contract activities (which means them following your instructions) unless they arrange otherwise with your consent.

I try hard to show that "blue collar" doesn't mean brain challenged, and then we get instances like this...

 

['61 Draggin Wagon]

Linc,
You are deffinetely right "IF" the machine work was done right, it would be a waste of time. Lapping proves it, by showing the sealing ring & where on the valve face that its at. Other than that, you're Assuming.....
So far it sounds like the machine work has been questionable. And that seems to be getting more prevallent in todays machine shop world as I read this forum.
I like the "do it right the first time" procedure.
Darryl
30 years ASE certified mechanic. no valve grind comebacks.(we have our own valve grinding equipment)

 

[Lazy JW]

I never lap valves.

If the machine work was done right, then lapping is an old-timers complete waste of time.

Agreed. I have seen good results done both ways. IF it was done 'right' :roll: Count me among the old timers, but then I prefer to wear both belt AND suspenders
Joe

 

[ski4evr]

You guys are funny. Just in case anyone gets miffed about the word "old-timers" - I take it to mean someone that will take the time to do a job right based on personal experience and some good ole "We've always done it that way - and it works!"

 

[Guest]

Yeah, Its best to have them lapped, especially on a thinner valve face that a 3 or 5 angle can make on the valve. It can cause sealing problems if a 3 or 5 angle isnt lapped, because of the shorter the edge on the valve due to the extra cut (s).

Oh God, and Ive lapped too many valve sets for my father when I was younger. Fun job, and betting to grind the seat bit by bit till they match.

Its a machinists rule of thumb to have ALL valves marked. One reason is the seat will match with the valve face better. Shade Trees can do it their own way.

Its like not marking the rods, or the main bearings, definitely a BIG rule for those who do it correctly.

 

[wsa111]

You are both right, if the machine work was done right there is no reason to lap the valves in??
If you lap the valve to a perticular cylinder do not change its position.
If you have done cylinder head work before you don't even need to change cylinder position once the valve is mated to that cylinder #.

The best way to get a reference point on the 45 degree angle before you do a 28-30 degree backcut to remove the sharp edge & improve flow is to either lap the valves to get a line where to backcut to.

Another method is to use blue dye on the 45 degree face of the valve & then lap it to obtain a contact line to backcut the valve to.

My preference is to use valve grinding compound to obtain the backcut line. Use whatever method you chose. You will obtain the added gain of extra flow not only on the intakes but also do the exhausts.

I stress also do the exhausts because they are the other flow path of air flow.

Remember flow is gained not only on the opening but also on the closing of the valves, thus a double gain.

Ski, get rid of the junk stock valves & get valves from FSPP which have proflow stems & are designed for maximium flow. William