Help me find out more about the motor I just bought

[addo]

Yes, you pretty much have to pull and reinstall. They may be re-usable - or you could look into hiring/buying the cam bearing tool. New bearings should be less than $20 if our local prices are any guide.

I want that shop to explain how improved efficiency consumes more fuel.

The other thing you are seeing here, is the time blowout. Stay on top of people, and you should be running it late this month.

Have the rods been closed and honed, or beam polished and peened? The former is good practice, the latter an indulgence in most uses.

Also good to buy/borrow are some half-decent digital calipers. A $60 set will likely do fine. Put them in the box when not used, and don't loan them out (yep, and I said to borrow them! ). That will keep a cheap set in "Rolls-Royce" condition for much longer. You can check crankpins and journals quite well with them.

 

[Eric Rose]

I can borrow a cam bearing installer, my uncle built a Ford six years ago and I remember watching him use the tool so I know he has it

Turnaround time shouldn't be much of a problem, the shop that has the motor now should be done by Monday. If I take it to the shop I had intended to do the work, they said 3-4 days before, and now that they won't have to tank the block, the turnaround time may be faster.

I still have to order rings, bearings, a gasket set, and hopefully a cam as well.

And I will need fluids and a tailshaft seal for the transmission since we will be taking that out too. I already have the pan gasket/filter. So hopefully there will be a little benefit from the trans. service too.

I'm still worried about the long water pump and how I will get around that. If I can swap the one-groove pulley from the bad motor on there its good, if I have to use the bigger pulley and the long water pump, I will have to re-locate the radiator which will probably require core support surgery. Hopefully it won't come to that.

I'm not too worried about down time as its the only thing resource I seem to have plenty of I rushed the job and cut corners when the last motor was apart, and I paid for it when that motor blew. Hopefully it will be a lot better this time.

 

[Eric Rose]

Just talked to the guy who was supposed to do the work and he tells me he can finish everything I wanted to do. The motor should be there tomorrow. The whole deal will end up costing much more than I had planned though

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back Eric:

I'd suggest taking the block to the correct shop and ask them about the necessity of removing either frost plugs or cam bearings for them to deck the block. Whatever they say go with it and hold them accountable.

I emphathize with your frustration, but I know from a life time of experiences that Murphy is alive and well. Whatever it costs, it will cost more! How long it takes, it will take longer! Whatever can go wrong will!

Life is an adventure. Enjoy the journey.

Adios, David

 

[Eric Rose]

Howdy Back Eric:

I'd suggest taking the block to the correct shop and ask them about the necessity of removing either frost plugs or cam bearings for them to deck the block. Whatever they say go with it and hold them accountable.

They said it will be OK to leave the freeze plugs and cam bearings in. They said they will tape off the oil galleys so that nothing gets in them. I will do a meticulous cleaning once I get it back.

 

[Eric Rose]

Update:

The other shop had not got around to doing anything with the motor yet, so we were able to get it to the right place and they are working on it now.

I'm about to start ordering parts. The bearings will come from the machine shop (they will have to order them to zero-deck it). So that leaves me with rings, gaskets, oil and water pumps, timing set, and cam/valvesprings/pushrods left to buy.

If I were to go with the 264/274/112* cam would I need valvesprings? Should I go with the 289 or 302 valvesprings?

what is the compressed thickness of the corteco headgasket that comes in Mike's set? How do Corteco gaskets compare with Fel-Pro for quality? My dad is recommending Fel-Pro but in my experience with VW water-cooled motors I've never had good luck w/ Fel-Pro.

Who makes the best rings in std. size for the 200 six? Does Mahle offer a set of 200 rings?

Thanks for all the help guys, I should have some progress to report on Monday

 

[addo]

You will need a "stiffer than stock" valve spring. No point going stiffer than needed, though.

The OEM spec Windsor ones might work; valve float will show on a dyno if it happens - at that point you would choose a firmer spring again.

What's happening with your rocker arms? Are you resurfacing them, or fitting aftermarket units?

 

[Eric Rose]

Planning on re-using the stock rocker arms. They don't seem to be worn at all. Maybe the head was reconditioned at some point.

I have a set of 289 Windsor valvesprings that I also ordered from Mike on the way with my cam. Will the Windsor springs fit in place of the stock ones or is additional machining needed?

I got the old motor and trans pulled today. The head was a C-9, the block was a C-8, and the trans was a D-2, could all of the above be found in the same car from the factory?

I'll be cleaning and painting the bay tomorrow, I'll post pics once I get to work and can upload them there on the faster connection.

 

[Patrick66]

Planning on re-using the stock rocker arms. They don't seem to be worn at all. Maybe the head was reconditioned at some point.

I have a set of 289 Windsor valvesprings that I also ordered from Mike on the way with my cam. Will the Windsor springs fit in place of the stock ones or is additional machining needed?

I got the old motor and trans pulled today. The head was a C-9, the block was a C-8, and the trans was a D-2, could all of the above be found in the same car from the factory?

I'll be cleaning and painting the bay tomorrow, I'll post pics once I get to work and can upload them there on the faster connection.

the springs will fit without machining, C8 and C9 might be found on the same car (if ford had excess parts from the last year), but D2 wouldnt be found with C8/9.

 

[Eric Rose]

Is there anything I should do to the trans while it's out? I'm going to take the pan off and paint it, probably replace the filter too, and replace the U-joints (they don't seem to be bad, but might as well do it while the driveshaft is off). Have to plumb new lines for the trans cooler and the modulator valve too.

 

[Eric Rose]

On Sunday, first we raised our A-frame:

Then we pulled the engine and transmission from the bay:

The bay got primed:

The frame rails are galvinized so regular primer/paint won't stick. I'll have to get undercoat spray for these. Having a galvinized frame is awesome BTW... just makes me a little worried about welding in subframe connectors.

 

[Eric Rose]

Just talked to my machinist and he told me the block needs a .040 overbore.

So far my damage is right at $900 with all new parts including the ones I ordered from Classic Inlines and the shipping. If the crank needs cut that will add another $110.

I am also thinking that with a 40 over block I may not be able to do a zero deck and still get 9:1 like I thought. We can get it close with a 58cc chamber but if the head has been cut before we might be SOL.

 

[Patrick66]

I am also thinking that with a 40 over block I may not be able to do a zero deck and still get 9:1 like I thought. We can get it close with a 58cc chamber but if the head has been cut before we might be SOL.

i dont see why not, boring it would increase the compression (not by much, youll only gain 4 cubic inches). right now with a 58cc combustion chamber, zero deck height and modern gasket youll have a 8.5:1CR. you can either mill the head or get flat top pistons (seems youll have to get oversize ones anyways and theyre only $5 more than dished). flat top pistons will give you a 9.3:1 CR.

I saw a few people reccommend a 9.0:1 compression ratio, but i dont remember anyone asking where you live, and it doesnt say in your profile (what altitude? hot or cold climate? dry or humid?). first figure out exactly what compression ratio you need, then worry about getting there. i have a 9.7:CR in florida (sea level and hot) and im not worried about it being too much for a daily driver, im running premium though.

 

[Eric Rose]

I live in Athens GA, and my folks live in Cartersville, GA, about 100 miles apart. The car will be used mostly for trips between these cities.

I'm about 800 feet above sea level.

Temperature averages around 50 degrees in the winter and 80 in the summer.

I wouldn't say its as humid as South Florida, but its probably more humid than most areas in the summertime.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back Eric and All:

With a .040 overbore, zero deck height, a Victor head gasket at .045" compressed thickness, chamber volumes reduced to 54 ccs you'll be right at 9:1 CR. With a stock cam, I would not reccommend any higher. A performance cam with more duration will help to reduce cylinder pressure, allowing more CR, in most cases. Given you're planning on the CI cam you have a choice, but know that you will run the risk of having to buy the expensive stuff in the heat of summer.

Patrick- What cam are you using?

Adios, David

 

[Eric Rose]

I'll be going with the Corteco gasket set that Classic Inlines sells. That gasket set is on the way now along with the 264/274/112* cam and 289 Windsor valvesprings.

I think the crush thickness on the corteco headgasket is .050 or .053 but I can't find a definite source on that.

The machinist suggested leaving .005 of deck on the block just as a safety margin.

I still haven't heard from him about whether or not the crank checks out yet. I am going to try to call him after work.

Supposing I do need to have it cut undersize, could I get a little stroke by offset grinding it? Or would that cause the pistons to bottom out? Maybe I could put that extra space at the top of the block to use

 

[wallaka]

You could get it offset ground, but IMO the 4-6 ci you gain isn't worth the added expense.

 

[Eric Rose]

Just got off the phone with the machinist.

He said the motor was wworn .029 on a couple of cylinders, and that a .030 overbore might not clean it all up. He said he will try .030 first and if he doesn't get it right at .030 he will go to .040.

He also said that the crankshaft would be fine to re-install with standard bearings.

Which reminds me... I took these out of the old motor... scary huh?

 

[Patrick66]

wow, those are worse than the ones we just pulled out of my friends 302.

CZLN6- im using a 264/274 clay smith cam, same one as eric.

 

[Eric Rose]

wow, those are worse than the ones we just pulled out of my friends 302.
.

Yeah, there was a whole chain of events that led up to the bearings wearing that bad. When I first got the car, I installed an oil pressure gauge and noticed I had no oil pressure at all. So after making sure the oil pump shaft was in place and engaging with the distributor, I thought I would replace the oil pump.

I noticed a couple of tiny rust holes in the oil pan. The previous owner had the oil pan brazed in a few places but they didn't get all of the holes filled... as you can see in this photo:

When I took the pan off there was a waxy sludge in it about 1/2" deep. It was deep enough to block the oil pump pickup tube. I'm guessing that sludge was from all the stop leak the guy had used over the years. It kept the oil from leaking out but it also blocked the pump.