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Anonymous
Guest
i was just wondering how many ponys you guys are getting and after you say how much give a discription on what your using please. this will give me a idea on what works best. thanks 
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Anonymous
Guest
Trying to figure out if you wanna keep that six eh?
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Anonymous
Guest
i'm thinkin somewhere in the negative 20 range....
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Anonymous
Guest
Right now I think I'm getting around 160hp. This is with a stock 250 Crossflow, on Propane, with an EFI intake, and Genie headers. Drivetrain consists of a C4 and a Borg-Warner 2.77:1 open diff..
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Anonymous
Guest
200 HP or somewhere in that area.... 
This is off the front page of my website,
Engine: 1978 200 bored .060 (206ci) decked .040 10.1:1 compression
Crank: Turned .010/.010 and balanced
Rods: Remaned, balanced, 302 ARP rodbolts installed
Pistons: 2.3 litre HSC 4 cylinder flat top pistons.
Camshaft: Clifford Performance 272H cam .449 lift 272 duration
Timing Chain: JP Performance double roller
Valvetrain: Clifford Performance hardened locks & keepers, Double valvesprings, Chrome moly pushrods & Rocker Arm Specialities 1.6 ratio Aluminum roller rockers.
Head: Fully ported & polished with 1.75" intake valves & GM posilock valve stem seals. Head milled .040
Induction: Holley 500 cfm 2 Bbl on a custom intake manifold with my own custom built "Ram Air" system w/ K&N filter and a Holley water injection unit
Ignition: Duraspark distributer, Accel 8.8 plug wires & U groove plugs, MSD 6AL module & MSD Blaster 2 coil.
Exhaust: Clifford 6 into 2 header w/Dynamax muffler exiting through a GT rear valance
Transmission: Russ Moore built C4 w/B&M transpack, 2500 stall
Rearend: Stock w/3:20 gears and homebuilt Shelby traction bars
Later,
Doug
This is off the front page of my website,
Engine: 1978 200 bored .060 (206ci) decked .040 10.1:1 compression
Crank: Turned .010/.010 and balanced
Rods: Remaned, balanced, 302 ARP rodbolts installed
Pistons: 2.3 litre HSC 4 cylinder flat top pistons.
Camshaft: Clifford Performance 272H cam .449 lift 272 duration
Timing Chain: JP Performance double roller
Valvetrain: Clifford Performance hardened locks & keepers, Double valvesprings, Chrome moly pushrods & Rocker Arm Specialities 1.6 ratio Aluminum roller rockers.
Head: Fully ported & polished with 1.75" intake valves & GM posilock valve stem seals. Head milled .040
Induction: Holley 500 cfm 2 Bbl on a custom intake manifold with my own custom built "Ram Air" system w/ K&N filter and a Holley water injection unit
Ignition: Duraspark distributer, Accel 8.8 plug wires & U groove plugs, MSD 6AL module & MSD Blaster 2 coil.
Exhaust: Clifford 6 into 2 header w/Dynamax muffler exiting through a GT rear valance
Transmission: Russ Moore built C4 w/B&M transpack, 2500 stall
Rearend: Stock w/3:20 gears and homebuilt Shelby traction bars
Later,
Doug
I think I'm close to 200 as well.
This stuff is all fairly technical, and based on 25 years of data analysis of Ford sixes and V8's
Right now, I don't know what I've got, but is sure more than the 115 hp at the rear wheels I got in November 1998 when my 1984 Alloy head 4.1 XE Falcon was last dyno'd. Thats around 150 ponies at the flywheel.
Spec then was 500 cfm Holley #2300 4412 carb on adaptor to stock 34 ADM Weber manifold, no extractors, LPG Impco CA 300 A1 348 cfm propane carb with 2.5 inch adaptor to sandwhich the two together. Did 23 Imperial miles to the gallon after that on the open road, a 20% improvement on the old dual fuel figures. Motor is +30 thou over with ACL shallow top pistons. Gear box is silly old BW 35 auto with 2.77:1 diff and it weighs 3165 pounds all up with full tank and no passengers.
Since then, it's had major intake work, extractors and K&N filter. Now it's much nicer around town with tyre smoking torque, and revs freely out to 5300 rpm with the stock economy cam.
I've done a book search on credible sources of horsepower. The best you can expect from a mildly modified Aussie Alloy head carb motor with stock head and minor intake work, a sub 270 degree cam, and extractors is 146 kW (196hp) according to the old Falcon XE racer Dick Johnston. This is due to cam and flow limitations. There is at least another 65 horses hiding if you are prepared to raise the rev range to 6000 rpm and wack in a 650 cfm Holley on a good four barrel manifold. Peak power with most 280 degree cams is around 5500 rpm, but theres lots of crankshaft windage and side loads with the 5.885 inch rods are close to 400 Chev proportions. Some have claimed after market 4-bbl's can reach 290 hp, but thats not substaintiated by any second party.
As an estimate which shows if people are telling lies , half truths or being conservative is to do the floowing:
Take the cubic capacity of the motor in question, multiply it by the peak power rpm (10% of the maximum safe rpm for the engine) and divide it by one of the following factors:
7000 if your six is box stock,
6000 if its got a good street intake manifold and exhast,
5500 it is worked with a cam that is over 260 degrees and gvery good breathing,
5000 if it is worked to an expert semi-race spec and
4500 if its a full-house, gas flowed, carb'd 300 degree + cammed motor. An electronic injected motor with Hillborn-style induction, very long rods, short stroke, and an A3 NASCAR/Cleveland style head that really flows might hit the 4000/3500 mark.
This gives SAE net (installed) power figures and works for most six and V8 motors.
Example 1 is a stock US 1980 3.3 Mustang that may have run to 3500 rpm for maximum power and around 4000 rpm maximum rpm. 200 cid*3500 rpm divided by 7000 equals 100 hp...you can't hope for more than that. Dropping the emissions equipment would probably add a 15% increase to the power of a stock 3.3 from its lowly 83 hp to about 95 hp. (I can't remember exactly what the figures were cause I'm not American, and we don't have periodic inspections for emissions gear in NZ).
Example 2 is a guy who says his heavily worked 250 gives 290 hp with one 4-bbl and a 300 degree cam. Max revs stated was 6000 rpm. Max power likely to be at 10% of maximum revs, which is 5500rpm, so 250*5500/4500 = 306 hp. Likely to be true then.
Example 3 is my project motor, a 228 cube destroked 250 with 221 crank, long Aussie 3.3 rods, and +56 overbore for 305 pistons, 305 valves , and 280 degree, 500 thou lift cam, and carby that can flow 432 cfm. Spec sheet says power at 5500 rpm, so likely maximum power is 228*5500/5500 = 228 hp max.
Example 3 is a 170 with a gas flowed 265 cfm 32/36 DGAV or Weber Holley 5200 jug on it, and a rev range to 6500 rpm. Max power is likey to be 170*5900/6000. 167 mighty horses possible!
If you get the maximum carby cfm rating at 1.5 inches of mercury, you can divide that by 1.6, and that'll give you the maximum likey power. A Holley 5200 is rated at something like 265 cfm at 1.5 inches, which gives you 166 hp when divided by 1.6. Often, a manifold will loose well over 10% of the bulk air flow, so that 166 hp could end up less than 151 hp.
My first Impco carb could give 216 horses at 348 cfm, and 270 hp if replaced with a 432 cfm job. The intake would loose about 15 to 20% power 'cause it's not a great flow-er. The cam is a low jumber with little duration, so it wouldn't flow any where near 180 hp, let alone 216 hp. So-called 320/350/500 and 650 cfm Holley 2-Bbl #2300 were rated at 3.0 inches of mercury pressure drop, so they flowed more air on paper. These should be factored back to by dividing by 1.41, then divided by 1.6 to get likely maximum power.
Hope this helps some body
Right now, I don't know what I've got, but is sure more than the 115 hp at the rear wheels I got in November 1998 when my 1984 Alloy head 4.1 XE Falcon was last dyno'd. Thats around 150 ponies at the flywheel.
Spec then was 500 cfm Holley #2300 4412 carb on adaptor to stock 34 ADM Weber manifold, no extractors, LPG Impco CA 300 A1 348 cfm propane carb with 2.5 inch adaptor to sandwhich the two together. Did 23 Imperial miles to the gallon after that on the open road, a 20% improvement on the old dual fuel figures. Motor is +30 thou over with ACL shallow top pistons. Gear box is silly old BW 35 auto with 2.77:1 diff and it weighs 3165 pounds all up with full tank and no passengers.
Since then, it's had major intake work, extractors and K&N filter. Now it's much nicer around town with tyre smoking torque, and revs freely out to 5300 rpm with the stock economy cam.
I've done a book search on credible sources of horsepower. The best you can expect from a mildly modified Aussie Alloy head carb motor with stock head and minor intake work, a sub 270 degree cam, and extractors is 146 kW (196hp) according to the old Falcon XE racer Dick Johnston. This is due to cam and flow limitations. There is at least another 65 horses hiding if you are prepared to raise the rev range to 6000 rpm and wack in a 650 cfm Holley on a good four barrel manifold. Peak power with most 280 degree cams is around 5500 rpm, but theres lots of crankshaft windage and side loads with the 5.885 inch rods are close to 400 Chev proportions. Some have claimed after market 4-bbl's can reach 290 hp, but thats not substaintiated by any second party.
As an estimate which shows if people are telling lies , half truths or being conservative is to do the floowing:
Take the cubic capacity of the motor in question, multiply it by the peak power rpm (10% of the maximum safe rpm for the engine) and divide it by one of the following factors:
7000 if your six is box stock,
6000 if its got a good street intake manifold and exhast,
5500 it is worked with a cam that is over 260 degrees and gvery good breathing,
5000 if it is worked to an expert semi-race spec and
4500 if its a full-house, gas flowed, carb'd 300 degree + cammed motor. An electronic injected motor with Hillborn-style induction, very long rods, short stroke, and an A3 NASCAR/Cleveland style head that really flows might hit the 4000/3500 mark.
This gives SAE net (installed) power figures and works for most six and V8 motors.
Example 1 is a stock US 1980 3.3 Mustang that may have run to 3500 rpm for maximum power and around 4000 rpm maximum rpm. 200 cid*3500 rpm divided by 7000 equals 100 hp...you can't hope for more than that. Dropping the emissions equipment would probably add a 15% increase to the power of a stock 3.3 from its lowly 83 hp to about 95 hp. (I can't remember exactly what the figures were cause I'm not American, and we don't have periodic inspections for emissions gear in NZ).
Example 2 is a guy who says his heavily worked 250 gives 290 hp with one 4-bbl and a 300 degree cam. Max revs stated was 6000 rpm. Max power likely to be at 10% of maximum revs, which is 5500rpm, so 250*5500/4500 = 306 hp. Likely to be true then.
Example 3 is my project motor, a 228 cube destroked 250 with 221 crank, long Aussie 3.3 rods, and +56 overbore for 305 pistons, 305 valves , and 280 degree, 500 thou lift cam, and carby that can flow 432 cfm. Spec sheet says power at 5500 rpm, so likely maximum power is 228*5500/5500 = 228 hp max.
Example 3 is a 170 with a gas flowed 265 cfm 32/36 DGAV or Weber Holley 5200 jug on it, and a rev range to 6500 rpm. Max power is likey to be 170*5900/6000. 167 mighty horses possible!
If you get the maximum carby cfm rating at 1.5 inches of mercury, you can divide that by 1.6, and that'll give you the maximum likey power. A Holley 5200 is rated at something like 265 cfm at 1.5 inches, which gives you 166 hp when divided by 1.6. Often, a manifold will loose well over 10% of the bulk air flow, so that 166 hp could end up less than 151 hp.
My first Impco carb could give 216 horses at 348 cfm, and 270 hp if replaced with a 432 cfm job. The intake would loose about 15 to 20% power 'cause it's not a great flow-er. The cam is a low jumber with little duration, so it wouldn't flow any where near 180 hp, let alone 216 hp. So-called 320/350/500 and 650 cfm Holley 2-Bbl #2300 were rated at 3.0 inches of mercury pressure drop, so they flowed more air on paper. These should be factored back to by dividing by 1.41, then divided by 1.6 to get likely maximum power.
Hope this helps some body
That pretty much backs up my acceleration numbers and ~200 hp claim.
With a 5500 rpm peak, a 272 cam, ported head and intake runners, pretty good exhaust on a 9.6:1 CR EFI motor, and MSD fired by the computer, that figure is about right.
I also ran the combo thru Engine Analyzer 3.0 and got roughly the same results, actually a bit more at 227hp.
With a 5500 rpm peak, a 272 cam, ported head and intake runners, pretty good exhaust on a 9.6:1 CR EFI motor, and MSD fired by the computer, that figure is about right.
I also ran the combo thru Engine Analyzer 3.0 and got roughly the same results, actually a bit more at 227hp.
wow thats all you guys are pulling? really makes my 2.3 turbo swap better. what are you running for a 1/4 ET?
nick
nick
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Anonymous
Guest
62fairlane170":1fj5z9fy said:
Nick,
As for myself, ever since I've started my buildup (2 or 3 years ago) I've been trying to reach the "magic number" of 1 HP per CI....That's about the best you can reach with these engines without a power adder of some sort....
Later,
Doug
200 hp was the target. I could have shot higher, but the car was designed to be a naturally aspirated daily driver. I had other goals that were more important than 1/4 mile times and peak hp figures. The last thing I needed was a tempermental, hard-to-live-with car.
It had to start in the morning, drive in heavy traffic, idle endlessly in 98 degree weather without overheating, and get great gas mileage. It had to have enough torque to pull easily and smoothly in every gear from 1000 to 6000. On top of that, it needed to be geared with enough legs to make 80mph easy for long distances.
I hit all those targets. The engine did all that and delivered 26-28 mpg!
Built with a turbo, this engine would blow away your 2.3!!!
It had to start in the morning, drive in heavy traffic, idle endlessly in 98 degree weather without overheating, and get great gas mileage. It had to have enough torque to pull easily and smoothly in every gear from 1000 to 6000. On top of that, it needed to be geared with enough legs to make 80mph easy for long distances.
I hit all those targets. The engine did all that and delivered 26-28 mpg!
Built with a turbo, this engine would blow away your 2.3!!!
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Anonymous
Guest
Jack
All of the goals you accomplished are more inportant that Full out HP. Jsut as you stated
I speak from experience.
Darin
All of the goals you accomplished are more inportant that Full out HP. Jsut as you stated
I speak from experience.
Darin
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Anonymous
Guest
Mustang_Geezer":ydl0lt63 said:
2.3 Turbo eh? I'd rather have a 3.3 Turbo.
i havent had my engine on the dyno yet as im still running it in ,im going to let it loosen up a bit first .im hoping to get 200 + hp out of it.
250 crossflow alloy efi head
acl liteweight pistons 8cc bowl ,tapered pins , narrow moly rings ,pressure
balance groove ,high silicon . 9.7:1 @ 80cc (finished 10.2:1) 040over
shot peened rods/new rod bolts
balanced crank ground 020/020 acl competion bearings
powerbond street / race harmonic balancer
lightened flywheel
decked block/ head
mild head porting ,new valves ,guides ,performance double springs/retainers,yella terra 1.73 roller rockers (clevo)
holley 450cfm ,redline 4 barrel manifold,kn filter
hurricane headers
double row timing set / hi volume oil pump
anti pump lifters /fast road cam (dont have specs at moment) custom ground by a cam grinding mate.dailed in .
stock electronic ignition 11.0mm eagle leads
should be on dyno after xmas,dam this time of year drains the pockets.
will post results .
cheers dave 67xr6
250 crossflow alloy efi head
acl liteweight pistons 8cc bowl ,tapered pins , narrow moly rings ,pressure
balance groove ,high silicon . 9.7:1 @ 80cc (finished 10.2:1) 040over
shot peened rods/new rod bolts
balanced crank ground 020/020 acl competion bearings
powerbond street / race harmonic balancer
lightened flywheel
decked block/ head
mild head porting ,new valves ,guides ,performance double springs/retainers,yella terra 1.73 roller rockers (clevo)
holley 450cfm ,redline 4 barrel manifold,kn filter
hurricane headers
double row timing set / hi volume oil pump
anti pump lifters /fast road cam (dont have specs at moment) custom ground by a cam grinding mate.dailed in .
stock electronic ignition 11.0mm eagle leads
should be on dyno after xmas,dam this time of year drains the pockets.
will post results .
cheers dave 67xr6
I am not trying to put you down Doug. You have a nice combo but I figured it would be putting out a little more (225-250 range). are you going to go forced sooner or later?
jack, a 2.3L will pull fine from about 2-6k stock (low compression doesn't help that bottom end) but given that they run off boost 80% of the time you can get great milage for a heavily modded car. Because of this a extrem car is very mugh like driving a stock version until you put your foot in it.
being in the 2.3L world for the past few years I can tell you it would be a close call. the 2.3L can flow alot of air in NA form. the bigger bore really helps. To get a nice combo all you need is a good intercooler (I'm going water injection) a little bigger then stock cam (.420 vs .400) and free flow exhust. that right there will put you in the 200+ hp range (the above will allow more boost then stock) there are several 350+hp daily drivers out there. getting into the 400hp range is when you start getting into the real money (built bottom end with oong rods and such porting) but it still stays pretty streetable until you hit the .500" or so cams and real big turbos. I got a email for a rodder here in IL who has been building headers for the 2.3L for pretty cheap ($300 range I think) and could prob do a falcon six one if you guys wanted. I really think a six with a T3 turbo and a TBI setup would be fun and pretty cheap (less sds/tec3/megasquirt system)
if a 2.3L can move a 3500# turbocoupe around a 3000# fairlane should be cake. remember I am not after a drag machine but a daily driver cruizer.
I would have done that to mine but the 170 is not good to build up with only 4 mains and the smaller bore.
nick
jack, a 2.3L will pull fine from about 2-6k stock (low compression doesn't help that bottom end) but given that they run off boost 80% of the time you can get great milage for a heavily modded car. Because of this a extrem car is very mugh like driving a stock version until you put your foot in it.
being in the 2.3L world for the past few years I can tell you it would be a close call. the 2.3L can flow alot of air in NA form. the bigger bore really helps. To get a nice combo all you need is a good intercooler (I'm going water injection) a little bigger then stock cam (.420 vs .400) and free flow exhust. that right there will put you in the 200+ hp range (the above will allow more boost then stock) there are several 350+hp daily drivers out there. getting into the 400hp range is when you start getting into the real money (built bottom end with oong rods and such porting) but it still stays pretty streetable until you hit the .500" or so cams and real big turbos. I got a email for a rodder here in IL who has been building headers for the 2.3L for pretty cheap ($300 range I think) and could prob do a falcon six one if you guys wanted. I really think a six with a T3 turbo and a TBI setup would be fun and pretty cheap (less sds/tec3/megasquirt system)
if a 2.3L can move a 3500# turbocoupe around a 3000# fairlane should be cake. remember I am not after a drag machine but a daily driver cruizer.
I would have done that to mine but the 170 is not good to build up with only 4 mains and the smaller bore.
nick
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Anonymous
Guest
26-28 MPG out of a 200hp engine is pretty outstanding. I get at best on mine with not 1/2 the horsepower about 16MPG. Thats better then most new modern engines such as a Dodge Status with 200hp getting 28MPG. Most new cars with the 200 horsepower range get 26-30
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Anonymous
Guest
Nick, I know you were'nt dissin me 
I have a few more tricks up my sleave then I'll probably start dabblin with the N20....Compression is too high to mess with a turbo or supercharger
Later,
Doug
I have a few more tricks up my sleave then I'll probably start dabblin with the N20....Compression is too high to mess with a turbo or supercharger
Later,
Doug
Lightweight car + overdrive + EFI + computer controlled ignition + high CR = pretty Good mileage
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