intermittent starting problem

[71ford]

Hey guys, I have a very interesting intermittent starting problem, every now and again the car just won’t start, there is absolutely no noise or anything. The battery is always fine, checked charge and there is plenty of it, also as it is intermittent. Now, I used my multi meter and checked that when I hold the ignition on the charge drops in the battery, as though it is sending the power to the starter, but nothing happens. More interestingly, I though it was the starter, so I replaced it about a month ago and have not had a problem since then, until this morning ( but that was the case more or less before I changed the starter, very randomly won’t start). When I bought the starter they sold me a relay to go with it, as I have never heard of anybody installing a relay so I implemented the mentality of “she’ll be rightâ€￾ and it has been, I assumed hat the relay would need to be used if the starter was going into a later model ford, (as the starter fits XY – AU apparently) but could this relay be the cause? Or do you have any other ideas?



Sorry for the long post.



Car: XY 250 2V

 

[addo]

Is it a new or rebuilt starter?

I think they often overlook the solenoid internals:



You really need to remove the solenoid and check both the pull-in voltage, and the hold voltage. Or at least desolder to remove the cap, then inspect the contacts and plunger motion.

The solenoid housing is crimped over; while you could "break in" it would generally be easier to renew the unit if it's more than contacts (available as an Ingrams kit for Bosch starters).

 

[71ford]

it was a new starter, I wouldn't think the same thing could happen to the new one, as what was happening to the old one so quickly.

 

[addo]

In that case, check the cables for internal resistance. They might just be a little old. Still - never assume new means good! Been caught a few times with brand new rubbish.

 

[71ford]

how do I check the cables for internal resistance? The same voltage is at the starter as what is at the battery, also if it was low voltage at the starter, isn't that when it makes the clicking sound, like when you get a flat battery?

 

[addo]

If you put a multimeter on the battery cable, look for less than 2Ω end to end. Similarly, look for minimal resistance from the negative terminal to starter case.

The "click" can come from a solenoid getting insufficient power to pull in fully and complete the contacts.

The only other thing to do is put the battery on a carbon pile load tester. If that checks out, and the lead resistances are OK, then it is the starter...

 

[71ford]

ok, I used the multi meter again and tested it at the starter end, it read around 13 volts, and then with holding th ignition on it dropped to 4 or so. Is this meant to happen, the power drop at the starter when holding the ignition on?

 

[71ford]

Ok, you want to hear something strange which fixed the problem (well at least it was strange to me, possible due to my lack of knowledge) but if somebody has any clue it would be great. Anyway, I though I would get my starter tested to see if it was faulty. So I first disconnected the negative battery terminal and then pulled of the (negative?) black connection off the starter and as I was pulling it of I herd a sort of zap or click, but no spark or anything, but I thought I'll just try and start it up, so I hooked up the cables again and tried it and it roared to life.......... WTF? (by the way i tried to start it just before I started this)

Would this be related to the relay or is there another explanation?

 

[addo]

The connection you pulled off when it clicked - was that the little spade lug?

 

[wagon]

Sounds like a case of dirty or loose terminals or maybe a bad lead. Inspect both heavy leads for damage or broken strands of wire, too. I would get the battery load tested, too. These problems should be easy too fix, and usually are. BTW, the relay fitment job is very common when the 'start' wiring (to the 'spade' lug on the starter) gets tired and lacks the grunt to fully pull in the solenoid. That will cause the problem you describe, too. A bad inhibitor switch (if automatic) will also cause these dramas. Be methodical and thorough, one thing at a time. DON'T just throw parts at it unless you are made of $$.

 

[71ford]

Yes it was the little spade connection.

Possible that it is bad wireing, really wouldn't surprise me, but I did check the voltage at the starter and it was the same as the battery. Battery in only a few years old as well. And its a manual.

 

[addo]

Few years old? I'd get it checked, for sure. It's free.

 

[71ford]

ah ok, cool, could that be an intermittent fault? or why when I pulled the negative connection of it worked again?

 

[Anonymous]

The good old XD of mine had the same problem as you describe. Tried another ignition switch with no fix. I fixed it (#@#$$#@ eventually) by installing a 30 amp relay in the solenoid pull in wire from the ignition switch with applied voltage directly from the battery. It now has no more intermittent starting. It's just that the connections are'nt as good as when new and the connections have a bit of resistance in them.

 

[71ford]

awesome, thats the same relay which I have here, with 5 spade connections on the bottom? But i'm still not confident of which wires go to which connection on the relay, any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[addo]

Terminal #85 goes to ground.
Terminal # 86 is hooked up to the wire which formerly want to the "SW" terminal on your starter solenoid. Red with a blue stripe, usually.
Terminal #30 goes to the battery.
Terminal #87 (either one of the two) goes to the "SW" terminal on your starter.

At your starter, the brown wire remains connected to the solenoid's "C" spade terminal.

 

[71ford]

Fantastic, thank you. Just to clarify, I only need to use one of the 87 terminals? And the "SW" refers to the wire which is bolted onto the starter?

 

[addo]

Both 87s are equal; just use the easiest one to reach.

The SW is the small spade terminal which is NORMALLY (I have to say that because there is always going to be an exception) on the left when you are looking at the butt of your starter. The lower thread/nut remains connected to the starter proper, and the upper thread/nut remains connected to the battery positive cable.

If you're still uncertain I can take a picture and highlight it.

 

[71ford]

My starter has one spade connection and one bolt on connection, thats it. How i'm understanding what you wrote I should have three connections, is that right? The spade connection has 50 next to it and the bolt on connection has 30. This is for my old starter, the new one has the same connection but was just slightly smaller.
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[addo]

If there's only one spade terminal, that's the "SW" one.

However - somewhere there is a "floating" wire you might want to find. It's brown, and used to plug onto the starter. Just make sure it's not able to short on anything, and is taped up against the loom.