So I have been playing around... here is where I am at now!

[xctasy]

Jimbo65 said:-

The car is still smoking, as a matter of fact... I think it is getting worse.
The idle is stil rough... I am losing power, and it flattens out at 3000 rpms... no more room to go... seems like it hits a ceiling.

Take some comfort. The lower performance is just the engine getting fouled. Heat is normal in the run-in phase. Smoke should be from richness and run-in.

I agree with most of what's been said here.

My pick is to use the 4.5 Hi-flow power valve. A 6.5 may be better, but when tunning its better to go from safe extreames, and then back off. You may find that change of PV fixes everything. If this isn't a cure all, then the main jets can be backed off, perhaps to as low as 56 for your first drive, or 58 if you are worried about a lean condidtion. An activated Power valve is equal to 8 jet sizes up, so you could back off 8 call sizes and still be rich enough.

(Ie, two 61 jets with a 8.0 valve on a car doing 7.5"hg vaccum on the open road is really like a set of 69 jets discharging. What you want is lean, lean running in all situations except low vaccum, hi-load conditions. So a 56 jet behaves like a 62 jet when the power valve kicks in)

In theory, the idle vaccum should then sit at about 16-17" at 900 rpm with around 12 degrees static.

If you get little joy, then the cam could be out of sync. To check this do me a little favour. What is your cold cranking compression?

*If its over 200 psi, then the cam needs to be retarded. You Americans have just cracked the code on cam timing and power. If there is too much cold cranking compression, then the cam could need retarding. The engine builder should be on the money, but sometimes the cam maker advances or retards the cam master. If after my recomendations, your still having matters, get the builder to check the cam timing.

Powered by Ford 200 2V © 2003

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks EXCUTE...

You are helping me out in many ways... calming me down is the best one.

I am going to place the order for the parts I need today.
Then I can start to tweak.

I am going to buy a compression tester as I do not have one.
And I have wanted to do a test since I started running the engine.


J.

 

[66Sprinter]

Hey Jimbo...

Your new engine looks sweet and I have been following your trials for quite awhile....I know how much you want to do and learn yourself..but sometimes you just gotta go outside.

If I had your problems...and the rich conditions are worrisome if they continue...I might just send the carb to PONY CARB...give them the specs on your engine..let them rebuild it and tune it...and send it back to you tested and ready to go...with a full report on what they did.

But I dont have your problems...just observing from the outside...and I dont want to see your engine take anymore abuse...it would be different if you rebuilt engines all year long...but I think this is a onetime project for you and the extra cost could be a stress saver..and performance enhancer

Please dont misconstrue my point here. I think all the guys and their help in this forum are absolutely awesome. However, for me, it would be time to draw the line and get this behind you. I fought a similar problem when setting up a tri-power for my 389..and in the end had to take it to a shop where a tri-power guy fixed it in one day!

Good luck.

Jim

 

[BIGREDRASA]

Jimbo, why do you say the timing is too advanced? As X pointed out, spark timing and cam timing are interrelated. I once had a 2300 which had the cam retarded one tooth. You could advance the spark timing like crazy, and it wouldn't ping or have any power.
Retarded cam will allow lots of spark advance, with no power. Advanced cam, don't know, never had one.
You may just need to do what Jammer said, and ask whoever put in the cam to verify the cam timing. In the meantime, crank in some more spark timing until it pings, then back off one degree.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think Pony Carbs is going to be able to help me.

First, they won't have anything close to this engine to test this carb on.
I doubt they would work on a 2300, and it is brand new, so it does not need a rebuild, only set for my engine.

And lastly, they were down right rude to me the last time I called them, so I am not in a hurry to call back... I bought one of their Autolite 1100 carbs and was running a YF at the time, they swore up and down the YF was the wrong carb for my engine, sent me the 1100, even though I wanted a rebuilt YF, and of course it did not fit the 250 head. So I had to send it back, and I never did get a running carb from them... the carb they sent me was fabulous, but they are not high up on my list of favorites...

I am open to installing the power valve and seeing if that fixes things. It cannot hurt anything really...


RED...
I am going to advance it more, but I am also concerned about going too far... the run-on was my sign of being too advanced, and I am installing some new plugs becasue mine are toasted.
I am not sure about the pinging on this engine... it may be very hard to hear... it is quite loud... besides it does not ping that I could hear even as far as I could push the initial... then if I move it any farther advacned the engine seems to roll back to a retarded rough running state and sputters and dies. There is only a small margin where the engine runs, too far retarted or advanced beyond that point and it dies... so I can only go from 8-25 degrees initial... and I had NO PINGING I could hear anywhere in that range... but the righ condition could be masking the pre-ignition, until I get that fixed I cannot do much else? I am going for 16 degrees for right now, it was peppy in that range, and it ran at a good temp... after I put another few hundred miles on the car I can start thinking about going to a Dyno and having the Carb and Distributor setup together.



And lastly, if I could find someone in Atlanta, I trusted, I would gladly pay them to help me out, but I payed a shop recently to tune this carb and they charged me 126.00 to tune the carb and adjust the valves... and I got it back running like this... so I am so pissed that from now on NOBODY touches this but me... I will learn or kill this engine trying first. Yes this is a one time shot for me, and I have enough money in this to be worried, but I am not giving up just yet.

So hang in there with me, I will figure this out.

 

[xctasy]

A beautifull attitude, hombre, you'll get a fine pearl out of the 65.

There's an old, but somewhat odd statement. Fire wood heats twice as hot if you fetch it yourself.

This is the toughest bit, but the basic foundation is perfect. Most guys start with bad mechanicals and try to make a silk perse out of a sows ear. You are justing doing developmnet engineer work. Your thorough and proper mehodical approach is an inspiration, JB, and the results will speak for themselves.

I'll never forget when I worked fitting up my LP Gas Holley 500/Impco 300 carb adaptor. Forgot to fit the lean cruise device, and couldn't get it started. Finished the fit-up after an all nighter at 5 am, and got it towed to the tuner at 7am. Now, tunners hate other peoples problems, well, Mark saw the problem, got it started, and when I came back to pick it up, Mark and Kelvin had big grins, and there was a nice 8" wide skid mark where the gas-powered Falcon was dropping wheelies. The said it performed unlike any stock Falcon six they had ever worked on.

There was six months of reading, planning, and consulatation with the experts. Then I went away, got my hands dirty, and I still feel imense pride each time I think about it.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks X.

No offense to Jammer... but I am more about figuring this out, so in the future I can do more myself. I am getting tired of taking this car to various places and not getting the type of service I need....

There are very few people who work in Auto Service these days with experience on classic engines... if they cannot hook it up to a computer and get a diagnostic they are lost.

I am beginning to think I should have assembled it myself too... but that is done nowl.


I bought the power valve and jets this morning, should be here Monday, I had to ship them from Summit. So this weekend I am taking a break. I will play with some electrical and other things I have to do, then give the tune up a try next week.

 

[Anonymous]

Been reading the posts on your problems and feel like a fool for the message I sent you. My old school mooto helps me quite often though(Through perserverence we shall see the fruits) and glad to see you seeing this through yourself. Thought momentarily,"What am I getting myself into with even thinking about building up my I6" but seeing everyone here trying to help you out makes me smile. My hat off to you all...and I mean that. Places are fewer and further between where it can be seen. Restores my faith.

Can't offer any advice other than to breath and remember your dream...Have always found myself,yes usually in retrospect,that it's the chase not the end that provides the greatest reward. Oh!The end can be really darn sweet...oh!the feel of that engine,the power and the pride...

I'll have to remember this post as I'm ready to pull my hair out..

Good luck!

 

[Anonymous]

Can't offer any advice other than to breath and remember your dream

I figured out a few posts back I was in over my head on this thread. I'm just gonna help "X" fetch wood.

You'll get it Jimbo and be a better man for it. Made me smile to see you helping a newbie on another thread while your'e suffering through your own problems.

 

[Anonymous]

You know this is all a growing experience.

Three years ago I found this site after buying this Mustang. And I was all set to drop in a 2000 5.0 liter EFI engine... I was going to make the car as modern as I could... I am still in the process of making modern upgrades where I can, but I am glad I kept the six... this engine is one nice peice of work, if I may say so myself, but it belongs to FSP and much as me. You all helped me to learn and design this engine, and I am not a mechanic, but I am mechanically inclined. My only real experience with engines was a 78 CJ7 I owned and rebuilt in my late teens. Now twenty-some years later I am at it again. But that was a stock rebuild on a straight six, and this is as far from Non-stock as I can imagine.

This engine has a lot of power and I think for the moment it is just a little wild with no control... I think I am getting closer to putting the finishing touches on this, and it has been almost a year in the making. I am narrowing down the troubles and getting things straight. I never expected this to fire up and run perfectly out of the box... so to speak. It just cannot happen with this much modification. Some of it is trial and error. but one by one I am going to work out the bugs (of which there are many) but all I can do is attack them one at a time. eliminate the possibilities of one system and move on to another...

In the end I feel very confident I will get it where I want it. I have been told by others on this forum that it can take a few months to get everything just right, as the engine breaks in things are sounding better and better...

And I am always looking for ways I can help others with the knowledge I have now... sometimes when I post to someone a process or some ideas on fixing their problems I can see some advice in there for me, it is like talking to someone to figure out your problems, the knowledge was always in your head, you just have to step back from it for a moment to realize it...

And I hope I can always give back to FSP for the help you have given me...

If I have not said it in a while... "THANKS FOR EVERYTHING" this is one of the best sites on the internet.. and the community here is becoming a family to me!

 

[66Sprinter]

Jeez Jimbo...you really are smitten with this. You are also determined to see it through and so be it.

I troubleshoot CNC machines for a living. Mech, Elec, Hyd, PLC, you name it. But I know exactly how the machine is built and how its supposed to run. If you give me somebody else's machine I would be slow, make stupid mistakes and so on until I got it or it got me!

So accept an apology from me if I stepped on your's or anyone else's toes. (I stuck my foot so far dowm my throat that I can now walk on my arse!)

Seems like you are not in a hurry and that is the best way to start a problem. I will continue to follow this saga..so good luck and lets see where it goes!

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Tis alright my friend... you are just looking out for my best interests and a possible quick fix for this... and I appreciate that.

I work on computers for a living as an animator and effects artist, and I know all about the learning curve when dealing with machines you are not familiar with... I run PC, MAC, and UNIX based systems and I had a period of time when I was not quite as proficient at troubleshooting those systems, but in time I learned what I needed to know to become very skilled at getting things fixed and going again. (You cannot always find an engineer when you want one... :roll: )

So for me I am only trying to get to that point where I know this engine well enough to be able to spot a trouble and fix it fast. I know in time I will get there...

As for the car, I am making progress even as we speak... my throttle cable has stretched some since it was installed, and I had about 1/2 inch of slack in the cable, I adjusted that nice and tight and I now have the right "peppy" feel to the throttle, it was only openning halfway and not all the way open at WOT... makes things a bit slower.

So in the end I do not think you put your foot in your mouth, you were only trying to make me realize there is a point where you have to turn to someone with more knowledge than you have, and I may yet reach that point, but for now I am still going to try and figure this on my own. Otherwise I will forever be at the mercy of someone else to solve the problems. But it is always sound advice to tell someone who is in it Knee-Deep that it may be better to get another head in on the trouble.

I always appreciate any advice I get, and if this next round of tweaks does not yield the desired results then I may take it to the machinist who built it to help me out... I trust him...

Thanks

 

[66Sprinter]

OK...back to the problem....

One of the key points you uncovered was the appearance of a RICH mix which leads to black on the pistons and plugs.. From your BIGRED test you could still run the engine........ so for my money its still got to be in the carb and the power valve and jets seems to be the center of attention.

The recommendation for adjust a jets seems interesting..but you may have to go to Holley for more specific info....have you tried calling Holley or just visiting a local speed shop for more info?

 

[BIGREDRASA]

Jimbo, one more piece of advise: sleep on it.
Never work on a problem past the point of frustration or exhaustion. That only leads to horrible mistakes. When faced with an insurmountable problem, take a break, let your subconscious work on it. Relax, watch a funny movie, drink a cold brew (only one). You'd be surprised how smart you become when you're relaxed.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL...

Red, you read my mind...

The car is sitting in the garage.
I am working today and tomorrow, so I have to give it a rest for a couple of days.

Plus I bought two power valves, and three sets of different Jets from Summit on Friday, they should be here on Tuesday.

I also bought a compression tester this morning...
but I decided to wait till later in the week to do anything, a little R+R will not hurt anything...

Taking a few days off should help out a lot.


Ya'll have a great weekend, when I get some more results I will post them, I am working on getting some Cold Compression numbers before I install the power valve... once that checks out I will start the tune-up...

but it never hurts to check everything... the compression test will eliminate any possibilities of valve trouble before I go into the Carb.


Thanks

 

[BIGREDRASA]

While you're at it, order a degree wheel so you can check the valve opening and closing settings yourself.

 

[strat1960s]

This is just a thought of mine and I may be way off on it.
I am new to this new/rebuilt motor thing so please be patient.

Do you really want to take compression readings so soon? If you had your motor rebuilt wouldn't they have replaced the piston rings too? Don't you have a period of time that it takes for the piston rings to seat properly?
If you try to get a compression reading while the rings are still seating, won't you be getting false measurements? Does this make sense to anyone? If the pressure is able to seap past your rings, you may think it is a valve that is not seating properly, or at least I would think that at first.
Could someone let me know if I am right or wrong with this, please.
I just dont want to see someone creating more work than needed.
Thanks.
Ted :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

I note your comment about the shop who adjusted the valves. The following story might help.

I'm new to the forum. When I first bought my 75 falcon it ran smoothly but had a bit of a tick. I didn't know much about cars then (this was 1992).

I bought a Gregory's manual (like a Haynes). I thought I would adjust the valve clerances to try and remove the tick. The manual suggested loosening the rocker off and progressively tightening until the pushrod would no longer turn then backing off (1/3 turn i think).

I followed the procedure carefully.

The result was a car that was smooth above 1800 but very rough below that (with no valve noise) This was a stock, log manifold, 250.

I had to get the valve clearnaces adjusted by a local mechanic, came back super smooth idle (and no valve noise).

The point of this story is you may have some carb problems but check those valve clearances first. Hydraulic lifters are forgiving but only to a point.

Use the proper bleed down method not that silly 'spinning the pushrod test' The rockers for the 250 2v are the same as the log motor. You should be able to buy a bleed down tool. It's a lever about a foot long (and very sturdy) that allows you to press down on the pushrod end of the lifter and collapse the lifter, then you can check clearance with feeler guages.

you will be surprised how much pressure and how long it takes to bleed the lifter down.

Maybe one of the other guys has a picture of this tool for you. I have one but i'm not close enough to help you out.

The alternative is to pull the lifters out take them apart, put them back together, reinstall and check the clearance. From memory (I've had a crossflow for 8 years, different head altogether) you can pull the lifters with the head still on using a long tool that when you press the top opens out the bottom of the tool like the lower half of a capital 'I'. The little projectons grap the top of the lifter and with some patience and twisting and 'up and downing' you can pull the lifter out the top.

When you resart after collapsing the lifters they will 'clack' like merry hell for about 2 minutes before they pump up.

Sorry to be suggesting more work but it's my experience that adjusting a carb on a motor that might not have correct valve adjustment may be leading you down the garden path.

Over rich carb is not going to affect the idle smoothness, idle circuit is not going to be changed by jet changes which affect cruise and power only.

I note your expecting a lumpy idle but my cam of 260 degrees and .45 lift is pretty smooth, only a car nut could pick it from stock at idle.

Stick with it mate. There is very little as satisfying as fixing your own car.

Dom

 

[Anonymous]

OK, some valid points made, I know the tool you are talking about, I have seen them in the shop manual.

I may look around and see if I can find one...
Also bout getting a degree wheel... Summit has some of the only parts like this I have found.
But my Rockers are not the stock adjustable rockers for the 2v, they are Full Roller Rockers that Azcoupe sells on FSPP. So this tool may not fit, not sure, but I will see what I can find out...

It may also be too early to do a compression test, but I am at 387 miles on the engine, so more than likely the rings have already seated, all the test would do is confirm or deny that, or the possibility of a problem, until I get the numbers I have no way to know.

Some things to tell ya'll about though.

It has taken a turn for the colder here in the South these past couple of days. I took the car out this morning to run to work, and it ran great, smooth, no rough idle, and TONS of power...

I had bought a package of Holley return springs from Summit, Chrome ones, and I used both springs on the throttle linkage, which was so tough it stretched the cable and gave me a really weak throttle... so I pulled one and left one in, also adjusted the linkage, and I am not kidding I was thrown through the seat. Made a ton of difference.

My next step is to do the compression test, if everything comes in within range of each other, then I am more than likely OK, and I can work on the power valve next....

Also I took the Carb apart when I checked the jet sizes, I cleaned the needle and seat, re-adjusted the Float, and that may have been a problem, if it was dirty, or if the float was not set right? I am not sure, but it ran so much better this morning, I will have to see how it is at lunchtime!


Anyway, I am still working on things, I have to swap out the plugs too, since these are fouled out from the early problems, it may be things are improving, and I do not know it....


Stay tuned for more info!

But I am feeling better this morning!


And the car screamed, I was playing around on the highway, in fifth, pushing 65 at 2200 rpms now, and an easy touch of the throttle to 85 at 3000 rpms... loving it!

I am going to feel a whole lot of joy if this was dirt in the carb, or a miss-adjusted float setting...

But I want to check the valves and compression anyway... just to see what I get...


J.

 

[CobraSix]

If it ran better with the cold weather, you are definitely running rich. I've been following your progress. Good luck. It took me about 4 weeks to trouble shoot my tuning issue, and it ended up being I never timed it correctly, didn't take the vacuum tube off. Remember, KISS (Keep It Simple Silly), so go back and look at some of the more obvious things. My gut instinct tells me it is something very simple going wrong.

Hang in there. I hope to soon join you in Aussie Bliss...

Slade