blower whine is caused by the air passing over the top grooved pully on a roots type blower, has to be grooved or, no whine, an Eaton M90 is a roots type blower but no grooved top pully. the T bird uses a centrifagul S/C and will sound like a turbo because it is 1/2 turbo, no exhaust turbine, just the compressor, driven by a belt
Turbo vs. Super
- Thread starter Mustang Boy
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Anonymous
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matt1967":18q2n618 said:
No, the 3.8 SC T-birds used M90's
Linc's 200":52519gg1 said:
shows what I know about Fox body Tbirds, I know my grandfathers '84 Turbocoupe had a single turbo and a green light that lit up when the turbo was compleatly spooled, to that extent, that's what I know about the Fox Bodies. but even at that, the M90 being a roots type, it has a non grooved pully/cog that is not exposed to the open, so it will not whine because of both reasons. a roots blower like a 6/71 has the huge grooved pully that when exposed to the outside they will whine due to the air passing over the pully/cog, if you cover up a 6/71 under the hood, it will not whine, it restricts the amount of air that can move around the pully/ cog and will not whine.
Mustang Boy
Well-known member
is this the reason why my dads grand marquis has like a sc whine when accelarating quickly
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Anonymous
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Are you reffering to cogged belt drives vs. multi-v belt/serpentine???
Superchargers have internal gears to ensure that the lobes of the blower do not come into contact with each other. These gears can be either straight cut (LOUD) or helical (quiet). Some Vortechs can be purchased with either straight cut or helical gears... Kinda depends on whether you want that blower whine or not. Helical gears can and do while, when placed under heavy load. Thats why even M90s start to whine when you crank some revs into them, tryin to wind in a couple of extra pounds of boost. If your serious about power, skip supercharging, and get yourself a turbo. There are quite a number of 12, 11, 10, and even the occasional 9 second turbocharged Ford 6's in Australia that are street driven, DAILY!
I personally saw a street driven TE cortina, with a Turbo'd 250 in it.
25 lb. of boost, C4, Hi stall and transbrake. When spooling the turbo up to 22psi off the line, the front wheels were leaving the ground 3-4 feet! Ran low 10's. When spooled up to 12 lb. off the line the car would still just barely lift the front wheels off the deck, but was pulling mid to high 9's...
How many daily driven 6cyl Supercharged street cars can you think off that can even run a 10?
What do you really want??? Wank factor whine or real power?
My XE falc has a 302 clevo in it, and it whines its head off courtesy of a set of gilmers. The solid cam 351c that is sitting in the shed to replace it has a set of straight cuts in it.. Why? Cos I got them cheap... Really cheap!
So you want an offset scoop, or a carby sticking out of the hood?
Run a suck through turbo setup... And install a set of straight cut timing gears into your motor instead.
Superchargers have internal gears to ensure that the lobes of the blower do not come into contact with each other. These gears can be either straight cut (LOUD) or helical (quiet). Some Vortechs can be purchased with either straight cut or helical gears... Kinda depends on whether you want that blower whine or not. Helical gears can and do while, when placed under heavy load. Thats why even M90s start to whine when you crank some revs into them, tryin to wind in a couple of extra pounds of boost. If your serious about power, skip supercharging, and get yourself a turbo. There are quite a number of 12, 11, 10, and even the occasional 9 second turbocharged Ford 6's in Australia that are street driven, DAILY!
I personally saw a street driven TE cortina, with a Turbo'd 250 in it.
25 lb. of boost, C4, Hi stall and transbrake. When spooling the turbo up to 22psi off the line, the front wheels were leaving the ground 3-4 feet! Ran low 10's. When spooled up to 12 lb. off the line the car would still just barely lift the front wheels off the deck, but was pulling mid to high 9's...
How many daily driven 6cyl Supercharged street cars can you think off that can even run a 10?
What do you really want??? Wank factor whine or real power?
My XE falc has a 302 clevo in it, and it whines its head off courtesy of a set of gilmers. The solid cam 351c that is sitting in the shed to replace it has a set of straight cuts in it.. Why? Cos I got them cheap... Really cheap!
So you want an offset scoop, or a carby sticking out of the hood?
Run a suck through turbo setup... And install a set of straight cut timing gears into your motor instead.
what you really want is a big, impressive blower.............this one just says BOOST!!!
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Anonymous
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I think asking about turbocharger or supercharger is rather like asking hotrod or rice burner: as much as you hate to say it, the newer vehicles have technology manufacturers wished they had back in the day. There is just something nostalgic about a hotrod or muscle car, however, and you are stuck on them.
If you want looks and a car you love to take to a car show, go with a Jimmy. Eatons are great, but they don't have the look of a polished blower. Try to find a 2-71 or 3-71 and LOOK IT OVER. There is a great book on this: A Do-it-yourself guide to: Street Supercharging. Another good book is Supercharged! by Corky Bell. Have those two books, and you are sure to find where you need to get a blower, how to get it working right, mounting it, keeping the belt and gasket intact, and having a blast!
However, the Daytona with the old T3 had little lag at all, and I bet a larger motor with a newer turbo would do even better.
If you want looks and a car you love to take to a car show, go with a Jimmy. Eatons are great, but they don't have the look of a polished blower. Try to find a 2-71 or 3-71 and LOOK IT OVER. There is a great book on this: A Do-it-yourself guide to: Street Supercharging. Another good book is Supercharged! by Corky Bell. Have those two books, and you are sure to find where you need to get a blower, how to get it working right, mounting it, keeping the belt and gasket intact, and having a blast!
However, the Daytona with the old T3 had little lag at all, and I bet a larger motor with a newer turbo would do even better.
Mustang Boy
Well-known member
well im not really goin for looks seeing as this car will most likely be all drag if i keep my same game plan going and it will see very little if any street driving so all i want is all out performance
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Anonymous
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Mustang Boy":3thyf9ts said:
Then turbo it is, there isn't any arguement for a supercharger at this point.
Copy drag-200 stang's set-up and you'll be in the 9's!
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Anonymous
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I concur. Superchargers fall back into the pictures at the speeds at which you are fighting for .10's, if not .01's of a second in the quarter mile. At these speeds, even the slight lag of a turbo might be an issue (even between shifts), not to mention most at these speeds also are upholding the hotrod name.
TURBO TAHM.
TURBO TAHM.
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Anonymous
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Vertigoomg":1jroj62k said:
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Recipe to go fast:
1) C4 trans with full manual valve body, transbrake and proper torque converter
2) whatever engine combo yopu want to bolt to the front of it
3) good suspension and tires.
If going really fast at the digs is the ultimate goal you won't even consider a manual trans :roll:
Once you stage, you set the transbrake and hold the gas on the floor. Let go of the button when you want to leave and hang the hell on.
On a good launch I could have been in the 12's on a 1 bbl carb. I have about $1200 in my entire car. The only thing keeping me out of the 12's was I didn't have a transbrake (or a more expensive trque converter).
Ditto.
There is no turbo lag between gears as long as you remain at WOT. Lag only occurs when you first spool it up. If you use a torque converter with a high enough stall speed to allow the turbo to be fully loaded against the converter when you pop the transbrake, the turbo stays at full RPM and full boost all the way through the 1/4. You obviously cannot do that with a manual tranny.
As for the turbo vs. supercharger question, there is no doubt that a turbo will make more HP. Amateur drag racing, however, is not just about going quicker. It is all about running the same ET each and every time you run the car. A car that never runs below 16.98 nor above 17.02 will finish in the money EVERY time. A car that runs 10.00 ± 0.20 will go home with bragging timeslips and empty pockets every time. From what I have seen, turbos are very quick but even if very well tuned tend to be somewhat inconsistent. This is not something you need if you're going to be a serious bracket racer. I think you'll find that a belt driven supercharger can produce somewhat slower but more repeatable timeslips.
There is no turbo lag between gears as long as you remain at WOT. Lag only occurs when you first spool it up. If you use a torque converter with a high enough stall speed to allow the turbo to be fully loaded against the converter when you pop the transbrake, the turbo stays at full RPM and full boost all the way through the 1/4. You obviously cannot do that with a manual tranny.
As for the turbo vs. supercharger question, there is no doubt that a turbo will make more HP. Amateur drag racing, however, is not just about going quicker. It is all about running the same ET each and every time you run the car. A car that never runs below 16.98 nor above 17.02 will finish in the money EVERY time. A car that runs 10.00 ± 0.20 will go home with bragging timeslips and empty pockets every time. From what I have seen, turbos are very quick but even if very well tuned tend to be somewhat inconsistent. This is not something you need if you're going to be a serious bracket racer. I think you'll find that a belt driven supercharger can produce somewhat slower but more repeatable timeslips.
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Anonymous
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good point.....depends on if he is bracket racing or class racing
Of the guys that I know that do run turbo drag cars for money, I havven't heard any complaints about inconsistencey, though.
Of the guys that I know that do run turbo drag cars for money, I havven't heard any complaints about inconsistencey, though.
I think that a properly set up blower would be a little quicker in the quarter than the turbo, if you are running a stock converter.
The blower will work off idle and the launch is very important for low ETs.
So Linc, would you like for me to send the blower for you to compare? If you mount it with the blow thru setup with the blow off valve it should be a good comparison.
The blower will work off idle and the launch is very important for low ETs.
So Linc, would you like for me to send the blower for you to compare? If you mount it with the blow thru setup with the blow off valve it should be a good comparison.
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Anonymous
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Stubbs, you have a blower set-up??
Racing in the 1/4 mile means whoever gets to the finish line first, wins.
This is why so many turbo cars are so much faster.
They may be a little softer "out of the hole" but catch up...REALLY quick.
As long as you get there before they do!!
Actually, on really torquey cars with traction problems....the lag helps you launch. Otherwise you spin.
Racing in the 1/4 mile means whoever gets to the finish line first, wins.
This is why so many turbo cars are so much faster.
They may be a little softer "out of the hole" but catch up...REALLY quick.
As long as you get there before they do!!
Actually, on really torquey cars with traction problems....the lag helps you launch. Otherwise you spin.
I haven't built ant brackets for it, but yess I have an Eaton M90 and a 4/71 blower. I think the Eaton would be the way to go.
The thought just occured that it would be a good comparison. Before you move on to the next phase of your project.
If a guy built brackets, which side would you need it on? I have been thinking the driver side because our Mustang has A/C.
I haven't researched pulleys either. We had a member that had one set up, but he never uploaded pics.
The thought just occured that it would be a good comparison. Before you move on to the next phase of your project.
If a guy built brackets, which side would you need it on? I have been thinking the driver side because our Mustang has A/C.
I haven't researched pulleys either. We had a member that had one set up, but he never uploaded pics.
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Anonymous
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I saw one guy on here that mounted an M90 on the driver's side..I forget his name. He works at/runs a machine shop and had the numbers "3.8" machined to look like "3.3"
He missed a shift and blew the motor up and swapped in a V 8
The Eaton M90 is way more efficient than the 4-71, but either one is WAAAY too much work to mount for someone who ISN'T a machinist
He missed a shift and blew the motor up and swapped in a V 8
The Eaton M90 is way more efficient than the 4-71, but either one is WAAAY too much work to mount for someone who ISN'T a machinist
You don't have to sell me on turbos for drag racing. I will never forget the first time I saw a real drag car with turbos. I think we were in Houston watching qualifing and a V6 Buick pulls up and starts his burnout.
There was a lot of banging and poping going on and we all laughed and pointed at the Buick. The Buick staged and when the light went green the Buick squated in the rear and lifted the front tires. When he shifted into second gear it just squated a little more and the front tires never thought about coming down. Three gears later he clicked off a low 7 second pass. He had his class covered by .8 seconds and the entire Prostock feild covered by a half of a second.
That was the first time I saw Buddy Ingersol in his Buick. 8)
I have always wanted to build myself a blown setup. I think this little fetish of mine will have to be satisfied someday. I also want to do the turbo thing but the blower desire is strong. (old school) During my years as an automotive machinist I aquired a few parts. I have a 2.3 turbo, 4/71 SBC setup and a low mile M90. I also have a couple of three deuce SBC intakes. If I satisfy my three carb desire with this six then I can sell SBC stuff. If I build the M90 for the six I can also sell the 4/71 setup.
I haven't messed with building any brackets for the M90 because the previous owner maxed out the compression when he built the engine. Now Mike is talking about making a manifold for the new head. I also have had an extremely large amount of stuff happening in my life in the last 3 1/2 years. There are some things that you just have to roll with untill they slow down. I am a machinist and very capable. I just can't justify spending that much time on me right now. I guess I miss doing this stuff for a living because I could do this stuff, even if it was for someone else.
I made the comparision to your setup because you have a stock converter and the sixty foot times could do with a bit of improvement.
There was a lot of banging and poping going on and we all laughed and pointed at the Buick. The Buick staged and when the light went green the Buick squated in the rear and lifted the front tires. When he shifted into second gear it just squated a little more and the front tires never thought about coming down. Three gears later he clicked off a low 7 second pass. He had his class covered by .8 seconds and the entire Prostock feild covered by a half of a second.
That was the first time I saw Buddy Ingersol in his Buick. 8)
I have always wanted to build myself a blown setup. I think this little fetish of mine will have to be satisfied someday. I also want to do the turbo thing but the blower desire is strong. (old school) During my years as an automotive machinist I aquired a few parts. I have a 2.3 turbo, 4/71 SBC setup and a low mile M90. I also have a couple of three deuce SBC intakes. If I satisfy my three carb desire with this six then I can sell SBC stuff. If I build the M90 for the six I can also sell the 4/71 setup.
I haven't messed with building any brackets for the M90 because the previous owner maxed out the compression when he built the engine. Now Mike is talking about making a manifold for the new head. I also have had an extremely large amount of stuff happening in my life in the last 3 1/2 years. There are some things that you just have to roll with untill they slow down. I am a machinist and very capable. I just can't justify spending that much time on me right now. I guess I miss doing this stuff for a living because I could do this stuff, even if it was for someone else.
I made the comparision to your setup because you have a stock converter and the sixty foot times could do with a bit of improvement.
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Anonymous
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Stubby":2k04lfhd said:
I ENVY you.
Actually, I got the chance to see Dutweiler run once...Equally as impressive!!
Stubby":2k04lfhd said:
That's too bad, I'd like to see you make it work.
Stubby":2k04lfhd said:
I actually changed the converter to a 10" unit, but just havn't been able to play with it much yet.
A lot of folks think a supercharger adds all this abundant low end torque, and it isn't always the case.
My 60' time would be hellacious with a transbrake, but that wasn't in the budget (this is just for fun!)
If I had to make ONE change:
1) switch to supercharger to lower 60' times, or
2) add a transbrake to lower 60' times...
.....Then I would spend the time and money on a transbrake.
I wouldn't even consider a supercharger for a millisecond.
I might/maybe be able to make 5 psi on the line with a supercharger AND a transbrake together (doubtful unless the converter is really loose to get enough RPM's on the supercharger) ...
...but with a turbo/transbrake combined, I could leave the line at 15 psi (or more) if I wanted to and have 1.3 second (or less) 60' times.
By allowing a turbo to spin independant of the crankshaft, you can do all kinds of things to make hellacious boost on the line. Some guys are even spraying raw gas into the exhaust manifold as thay are staged (which absolutely destroys a turbo in short time) but you can leave at FULL boost (if the car will hook up)
