Turbo vs. Super

[Stubby]

I have seen guys use a small shot of nos off the line and it makes a huge difference.

I think the trans brake is the way to go. For consistent launches it can't be beat.

The only bad thing with a trans brake is the extra heat generated while on the brake. One of my customers was running a BBC dragster with a 589.
He was using up an ATI super set (low gear planetaries) in about 150 passes. After talking to a few Comp Eleminator guys we dropped the rpms on the MSD two step to about 2500 rpms less than the converter stall and his sixty foot times dropped to 1.05 with better consistency. Then we installed a B&M cooler (I think it was called an EC canister) that held about three extra quarts of fluid and when we freshened the trans at 150 passes we replaced the clutches because we were there, not because we had to. Again consistency got better. 8) I have seen this car go five rounds at Super Chevy in Houston and the eight mile times were within .001 and quarter mile mile times within .003.

You might keep this in mind when you do put in a brake. A little cushion on the converter will keep trany temps down and a little flash against the converter will help launch.

 

[Anonymous]

I wanted to use a small shot of N20 to help me off the line,
but was told by many I would lose respect for doing that.

My converter is supposed to stall at 3200,
I was thinking of using a MSD two-step to hold RPM's to 2500
(easier on converter) while building killer boost
(the throttle held wide open with a two-step allows you to build full boost at a lower RPM)

 

[Stubby]

I wanted to use a small shot of N20 to help me off the line,
but was told by many I would lose respect for doing that.

Hide it well and lie like h___!!!

I would still respect a guy who got a stock 200 into the twelves even if he squirted it a little. As long as it was done in the name of scientific research and fun!

When you get tired of the project you can get on the button and off the throttle and see what it will do on nitros only. Rumor has it that the guys at Nickens made a pull on the dyno with nitros only to prove a theory. The Top Sportsman guys were not getting the HP anticipated from the NOS. It was suspected that the problem was that the NOS was diminishing the engines ability to draw in air and running mostly on the NOS and fuel mix. They pulled almost 1000 hp with the carbs closed. They were only pulling about 1200hp with carbs wide open and full on NOS. This was while we were building Donnie Little's engine. I kinda like well egnineered setups, but it can be an expensive habbit.

 

[matt1967]

Turbo's are better to a point I think, there great for street use and some drag racing but there comes a point when a roots blower will do better than a turbo, mainly on the huge cube custom V8 engines run in dragsters and funny cars ( running gas and methanol, and nitromethane ), they compress a lot more volume than a turbo setup could, even being they take more power to run, they would give more back than the turbo could. I'd assume that's why they run roots blowers on them.

 

[Stubby]

I don't think they are better. Just easier and simpler. They are way less efficient. They beat and heat the incoming air till it's almost unusable and they use lots of HP to do it. But they are just cool.

Years ago there was a Latham axial flow that was alot more efficient. You could run about one full point higher compression at the same level of boost. It suposedly had vains similar to a jet engine. Translation "expensive" I have searched for info on these and have come up empty. There are limits to the internet.

The screw type super charger is also way better but it is also way more expensive. It has to do with the male and female rotors. Any time you get a male and female together, someone will pay big time.

The centrifagul are more efficient but in reality it is a turbo that requires HP to turn it. They are also expensive.

Hot Rodding in America does have lots of options. 8)

 

[matt1967]

I don't think they are better. Just easier and simpler. They are way less efficient. They beat and heat the incoming air till it's almost unusable and they use lots of HP to do it. But they are just cool.

Years ago there was a Latham axial flow that was alot more efficient. You could run about one full point higher compression at the same level of boost. It suposedly had vains similar to a jet engine. Translation "expensive" I have searched for info on these and have come up empty. There are limits to the internet.

The screw type super charger is also way better but it is also way more expensive. It has to do with the male and female rotors. Any time you get a male and female together, someone will pay big time.

The centrifagul are more efficient but in reality it is a turbo that requires HP to turn it. They are also expensive.

Hot Rodding in America does have lots of options. 8)

I'd have to disagree. the people running the roots type with the big cube custom engines are running, are running for sponsors and money, and there big name, with an almost unlimited budget. I don't think they would go for a cheaper option if it was not as good as the more expensive option, it could be that a roots blower is all they can use per NHRA/IHRA rules. dealing with alternate fuels is a whole diffrent ball game I'm not really shure on what's what. it may be all they can use, I know that nitromethane needs compression to fire ( spark dosn't cut it, this is why nitro motors are started on gas or alchahol ), maby it needs good atomization to work properly, and a blower would atomize the gas better than a blow through carb

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think they would go for a cheaper option if it was not as good as the more expensive option, it could be that a roots blower is all they can use per NHRA/IHRA rules.

Yes. It is the rules, and mostly because blown motors make lots of noise and turbo motors don't.

Turbos were tried in fuel cars already and did fine, the rule makers pushed them out.

 

[Stubby]

You would need to look at NHRA and IHRA sponsors and money spent.
Not car sponsors but those who sponsor the sanctioning bodies.
And yes they put on a show. 8)

A blower will give instant throttle response. That and simplicity are their only advantage. I would have said price, but Linc has debunked that myth.

 

[Anonymous]

also...."Tradition" is a powerful thing.

Old dogs don't like to look at/see/hear/learn new tricks

 

[Stubby]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

 

[addo]

So true, Linc! (Just look at that guitar of yours... )

 

[matt1967]

also, I don't think you could run nitromethane on a turbo motor, and have the turbo survive, due to the burning fuel in the exhaust.

 

[wallaka]

If I remember correctly, the old turbo Top Fuelers only ran about a 10% nitro mix to make the same power as the blower cars at 80% anyhow. The turbos made so much power they were outlawed. Plus they were much easier on the engines because of the lesser nitro content.


Remember that 4-banger Funny Car posted a couple months ago? It made 4,000 hp out of a 4-cylinder 4.8L alky-nitro mix and two big turbos. 5.50's in the 1/4...in a sleeker body, it would run close to 5.00's.

 

[Anonymous]

It takes nearly 1000 HP to run that big blower on a TF car.

It doesn't take anywhere NEAR that to run the turbos

They will probably become standard in the future...

 

[matt1967]

so if the nitro mix wasn't as much then there wouldn't be the flames to damage the turbo and would work. I like any kind of forced induction, if I had a V8 tho, I would build an engine to accept a 6/71 blower and put 1 on, in a street rod, a little less HP would be worth the whine. my dad just replaced the engine in his '72 C10 with a GM 260 crate 350 cause the old motor had problems, so maby I'll have a motor to do it to, it's a 350 also, stock with a mild cam, were ither going to do a '41 Willy's or a '23 T bucket and we arleady know we will use that motor, I'll just have to convince my dad we should build it for a blower.

 

[Anonymous]

... a little less HP would be worth the whine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you can get that whine out of a turbo too if you remove the silencer ring. My buddies car has a nice little turbo whine to it, sounds like a turbine engine spooling... oh wait thats what a turbo is (basically) 8)

 

[matt1967]

... a little less HP would be worth the whine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you can get that whine out of a turbo too if you remove the silencer ring. My buddies car has a nice little turbo whine to it, sounds like a turbine engine spooling... oh wait thats what a turbo is (basically) 8)

nope, you will get the standard turbo spooling sound, just louder. a blower whine is caused by air passing over the drive cog.

 

[Anonymous]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you can get that whine out of a turbo too if you remove the silencer ring.

What silencer ring?? :

 

[wallaka]

Every supercharger I've seen it sounds like the blower whine is caused by the supercharger's gears. Every Roots-type and most centrifugal supercharger has gears in it, and most are straight cut gears that whine like crazy. Ever heard a tranny with straight cut gears? Makes the same noise but louder.

It makes no sense that the sound is "air passing over the cog" especially on centrifugals since most don't even have cogged belts, yet make the sound. The huge centrifugals use cogged belts, the rest use regular ribbed ones. If it was air then the turbo sucking air past the core support or suspension would make the same noise and they don't. And what about the blowers that have shrouded belts?

About turbo survivability...they tear down a TF and Funny Cars after every pass. What's replacing the exhaust manifolds/turbos when the whole engine has to be replaced? The tractor pull guys inject nitrous or gas directly into the exhaust housing to build boost instantly. They don't seem to have too many problems breakng mid-pass.

 

[AzCoupe]

I think most of you are missing the whole point behind the blower. Yes, turbos are cheaper. Yes, they make great power. Yes, anyone can set one up (almost anyone). But why do most of us choose to keep our inlines in the first place? Because we choose to be different. Money, power, and simplicity are not factors.

Blowers have a unique look that can't be match by a trubo (IMHO). Modern blowers don't whine all the time, as the have by pass valves that kick in when boost isn't needed. They work well on daily drivers. And with the proper installation kit, they are easy to install.

The idea behind the blower kit we plan to offer, is not for making the utmost power. Rather to offer a means of achieving more power than N/A, with a Coolness Factor that some of us choose over the more common turbo. Because we choose to be different, and don't care if it cost a little bit more.

Take two identical cars to a show, one turbocharged, one supercharged. Which one do you think will yield more Shock and Awe? 8)

As for how fast one can go with a blown motor, well we'll find out in a few more months. Kelly has already agreed to a grudge match.