Keep in mind that if you go with the Yella Terra rockers you will need oil through pushrods, and plug the oil hole to rockers in the block.
All Small Six Wrong Head?
- Thread starter fritschn
- Start date
This relates to all small sixes
Available at VI for less:
Dual Roller Timing Chain Set (170/200ci) | Vintage Inlines
These dual roller chain sets feature billet gears with hardened teeth. The crank gear has nine key ways for adjusting cam timing in 2, 4, and 6 degree increments (advance or retard). They offer greater strength and reduced chain stretch over stock chains to maintain accurate cam timing, and...www.vintageinlines.com
VI don't ship to Canada so not sure if they ship to Europe. I have a US PO Box though, so I'm all set when they get those aluminum heads rolling in!!
Wow, what’s going on here? Awesome! 
@ Andrew,
Let’s see—I already reached out to Matt from VI. Maybe he can tell me when and if he’ll have the pushrods back in stock. I noticed that he has everything else I need. Unfortunately, he doesn’t ship to Europe, but that’s not a problem. There’s a warehouse in Miami that works with a German company, and they handle the import for me. It’s also cheaper than FedEx and similar options.
Cool that the MPR81 pushrods fit! I already found a source for them, but I’ll wait for Matt’s response—though I doubt he’ll get back to me.
@ TrickSix,
Thanks for the hint and the photo! That’s really just a minimal difference—perfect!
@ bmbm40,
Thanks for looking it up! That helped me see that he has everything else I need—except for the pushrods.
@ drag-200stang & Don,
I bought the 144 head yesterday, so now I have the original adjustable rockers—which means I won’t need the ones from RAU or Yella Terra. At least for now.
Cheers
Chris
@ Andrew,
Let’s see—I already reached out to Matt from VI. Maybe he can tell me when and if he’ll have the pushrods back in stock. I noticed that he has everything else I need. Unfortunately, he doesn’t ship to Europe, but that’s not a problem. There’s a warehouse in Miami that works with a German company, and they handle the import for me. It’s also cheaper than FedEx and similar options.
Cool that the MPR81 pushrods fit! I already found a source for them, but I’ll wait for Matt’s response—though I doubt he’ll get back to me.
@ TrickSix,
Thanks for the hint and the photo! That’s really just a minimal difference—perfect!
@ bmbm40,
Thanks for looking it up! That helped me see that he has everything else I need—except for the pushrods.
@ drag-200stang & Don,
I bought the 144 head yesterday, so now I have the original adjustable rockers—which means I won’t need the ones from RAU or Yella Terra. At least for now.
Cheers
Chris
TrickSix
Famous Member
Wasn't there a book titled Fun With Your New Head? Anyway, congrats on your score. What kind of condition is the rocker assembly in? Used ones are usually well-worn and in need of some attention. The stands and springs are usually fine for re-use. But the rocker arms and shaft are often badly scored and worn, wiggle the arms to see how loose they are on the shaft. The arms can be bushed to restore the original bore, something any good machine shop might be able to do though there are specialists. I've heard the shafts can be built back up with chrome and turned down to the right size, but that sounds expensive. New shafts don't cost a lot, and then you don't have to clean the inside of the old one either. The best price I've seen is at O'Reilly auto parts stores. It's a Melling part, MRS 652, and they only want $53 for it. Shipping is of course another issue. A small part that may or may not be bad is the little oddly shaped spring washer retainers and pins on the ends of the shaft. They can get worn too at the rocker arm contact points, and are often bent. I've bought them, but I can't remember where or if they were NOS or just new. Good luck.
Hey TrickSix,
At this rate, I’ll be able to write a whole book about the new head soon.
I can’t say anything for sure yet—I have to wait until the postman delivers the package. I’m really excited and hoping that the parts are in decent shape. Otherwise, as you said, I’ll have to re-bush and refurbish them. I always try to use original parts and restore them whenever possible, but sometimes you just have to go with an aftermarket option.
I think I still have two rocker shafts at home—maybe one of them is in good condition. If not, they’re not too expensive anyway.
I’ll also have to check if I can get the spring washers and pins.
I’ll update you as soon as I get the package. First thing I’ll do is remove the rocker arms and take some photos.
Until then, cheers!
Chris
At this rate, I’ll be able to write a whole book about the new head soon.
I can’t say anything for sure yet—I have to wait until the postman delivers the package. I’m really excited and hoping that the parts are in decent shape. Otherwise, as you said, I’ll have to re-bush and refurbish them. I always try to use original parts and restore them whenever possible, but sometimes you just have to go with an aftermarket option.
I think I still have two rocker shafts at home—maybe one of them is in good condition. If not, they’re not too expensive anyway.
I’ll also have to check if I can get the spring washers and pins.
I’ll update you as soon as I get the package. First thing I’ll do is remove the rocker arms and take some photos.
Until then, cheers!
Chris
Hey guys,
I just wanted to give you a quick update. I haven’t had the chance to take any photos yet, but I noticed that one of the valves from the 144 head isn’t in great shape anymore. I managed to score two NOS valves for just about $25. The pushrods were available on RockAuto for $125, including shipping and customs, so I went ahead and ordered them as well. I went with the SBI 1901280 ones since they were cheaper than the Melling ones—hopefully, they’ll fit.
Now it’s back to waiting.
Cheers,
Chris
I just wanted to give you a quick update. I haven’t had the chance to take any photos yet, but I noticed that one of the valves from the 144 head isn’t in great shape anymore. I managed to score two NOS valves for just about $25.
The pushrods were available on RockAuto for $125, including shipping and customs, so I went ahead and ordered them as well. I went with the SBI 1901280 ones since they were cheaper than the Melling ones—hopefully, they’ll fit.Now it’s back to waiting.
Cheers,
Chris
Hey Don,
Thanks for the info! I’ll check it the next time I’m in the workshop. Unfortunately, it will take a few more days because I’m currently sick, but I’ll keep you updated.
The pushrods have arrived in the meantime. The valves are also already on their way to the ship—let’s see how long they take to get there.
Cheers,
Chris
Thanks for the info! I’ll check it the next time I’m in the workshop. Unfortunately, it will take a few more days because I’m currently sick, but I’ll keep you updated.
The pushrods have arrived in the meantime. The valves are also already on their way to the ship—let’s see how long they take to get there.
Cheers,
Chris
Are you planning on trying to fit the 144 head on your 200 (I thought you had better options)? I know you wanted the adjustable rocker arm (good score!), but when you purchased the new valves it made me wonder if you are considering running that head, or just repairing it for resale? A 144 head will physically fit but is not a good match for the 200.Hey guys,
I just wanted to give you a quick update. I haven’t had the chance to take any photos yet, but I noticed that one of the valves from the 144 head isn’t in great shape anymore. I managed to score two NOS valves for just about $25.
Now it’s back to waiting.
Cheers,
Chris
Last edited:
Hey Mustang6,
No, the 144 head is only being used as a parts donor. The adjustable rocker arms and intake valves will be installed in the 250 C9DE head as exhaust valves since they are larger. I’ll try to sell the rest again, as I don’t need the head itself, but it was cheaper to take the complete head than to buy the parts individually.
Best regards,
Chris
No, the 144 head is only being used as a parts donor. The adjustable rocker arms and intake valves will be installed in the 250 C9DE head as exhaust valves since they are larger. I’ll try to sell the rest again, as I don’t need the head itself, but it was cheaper to take the complete head than to buy the parts individually.
Best regards,
Chris
Last edited:
Good that push rods for the adjustable rocker arms are available on Summit, Jegs and others I noticed.
Made me realize that longer pushrods would be required for a 250 have to look around for a source. I have a set of adjustable rocker arms.
philford
Famous Member
if you can just buy a new shaft and bushings maybe thats ok.
on my old volvo I put the rocker shaft in my lathe and turned it but the metal was hard enough that I used a toolpost grinder and ground it to size, instead of turning it with a cutter.
I had a machine shop make up bushings, I had them make them slightly tight and hand worked thiem to fit with brasso, I found the edges of the rockersand pillow blocks worn , so I resurfaced them and fitted a bronze washer between each.. It probably all helped but the rockers still had wear and I polished them but that tends to go through the case hardening.. Id say it's all possible but likely cheaper just to buy new parts. It might be worthwhile if you are a bit of a machinist and have the time otherwise probably not the best way unless you are dealing with obsolete parts.
when the rockers wear that means a feeler guage wont fit properly if they are dish shaped. I tried to use a dial indicator and rather than instert a feeler guage , I check how far it can rock instead.
all that may be worthwhile if you are workign on a car that is very unique and hard to get parts for or if you have the time to play and enjoy that stuff..
I think if you can buy stuff online its a lot less time and maybe even better..
Maybe its possible ot re- case harden the rockers, I din't try. but I think you can still buy "Kasnite compound", or something similar.
www.mcmaster.com
I believe the compund contained Potassium Ferrocyanide which is a poison and maybe its controlled. another use for that chemical was in etching film which was darkroom work now obsolete by digital photography.
I remember my graddad who was trained in england as a tool and die maker described adding bone to the furnace, it is possible to do it the old way. I can only imagine what the burning bone smelled like.
if you want to experiment and you search a little there are gun forums and machinist forums that have helpful posts. I think in theory they can be polished and then re-hardened. and there are more modern alternative chemicals.
if you merely polish them , it will work, just don't be suprised that they will wear because in doing so , you will likely also penetrate the hardened layer.
roller rockers? sound attractive.
on my old volvo I put the rocker shaft in my lathe and turned it but the metal was hard enough that I used a toolpost grinder and ground it to size, instead of turning it with a cutter.
I had a machine shop make up bushings, I had them make them slightly tight and hand worked thiem to fit with brasso, I found the edges of the rockersand pillow blocks worn , so I resurfaced them and fitted a bronze washer between each.. It probably all helped but the rockers still had wear and I polished them but that tends to go through the case hardening.. Id say it's all possible but likely cheaper just to buy new parts. It might be worthwhile if you are a bit of a machinist and have the time otherwise probably not the best way unless you are dealing with obsolete parts.
when the rockers wear that means a feeler guage wont fit properly if they are dish shaped. I tried to use a dial indicator and rather than instert a feeler guage , I check how far it can rock instead.
all that may be worthwhile if you are workign on a car that is very unique and hard to get parts for or if you have the time to play and enjoy that stuff..
I think if you can buy stuff online its a lot less time and maybe even better..
Maybe its possible ot re- case harden the rockers, I din't try. but I think you can still buy "Kasnite compound", or something similar.
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
I believe the compund contained Potassium Ferrocyanide which is a poison and maybe its controlled. another use for that chemical was in etching film which was darkroom work now obsolete by digital photography.
I remember my graddad who was trained in england as a tool and die maker described adding bone to the furnace, it is possible to do it the old way. I can only imagine what the burning bone smelled like.
if you want to experiment and you search a little there are gun forums and machinist forums that have helpful posts. I think in theory they can be polished and then re-hardened. and there are more modern alternative chemicals.
if you merely polish them , it will work, just don't be suprised that they will wear because in doing so , you will likely also penetrate the hardened layer.
roller rockers? sound attractive.
Wow… Case hardening. I haven’t thought about that since I was in grade 9 in metal shop. I made a ball peen hammer for my dad’s Father’s Day present and case hardened the head. I used an oxy acetylene torch to get the head red hot and then dropped it in some kind of salt mixture that was for case hardening. I’ve still got the hammer today. It’s not a thing of beauty but 45 years later and it’s still plenty hard.
philford
Famous Member
we made bottle openers and case hardened them in shop class. now kasenit is probably banned because it contains potassium ferricyanide.
it might show up at a garage sale or something.. evidently there are ways using bone or charcoal .. if you read the machinist and gun making forums they have info on how to do it with what is available.
now people freak out about their kids buying toys with lead paint and I think back to my brother, he had a kit to melt lead and pour your own lead soldiers, and he also had pre made soldiers that came with little cigarettes for the soldiers , that you could light lol..
I was trained to pour my own babbitt bearings and fit them, one thing they enhanced was that if there is any water in the mold, even a drop, when you pour in the moleton lead it can blow up in your face. pretty dangerous toy ..
I remember the old steam engines too. i bought a couple in the past few years, you sit at the kitchen table and have a little fire boiling the tank to make steam. it was fun.. you can still buy those if you want to re-live your youth ;-)
www.wilesco.de
for the first couple years of my career I stood beside a pot of moleton lead , to make type for printing. it was always kept moleton otherwise it took hours to heat up. they used lead tin and antimony, that was I think the same as for the babitt bearings, maybe the percentages varied. it expands as it cools..
in print shops wed always have these ingots around as it was used it was re-melted and used over. I still have a printing press that used lead , like the one john boy ran on the waltons. a treadle machine..
originally in printing darkroom work was used to do color separations to make 4 plates yellow cyan magenta and black, wed use a big camera and take picturs of the color picture through filters. and a contact screen was placed over the film, that broke the image into dots. it produced 4 pieces of film they were used ot make the 4 aluminum printing plates.
if there was a little too much of one color then we could immmerse the film in it , that was called dot etching. it decreased the density of the film to adjust the color.. that was an old practice now way outdated. all done by digital means now. but that was potrassium ferricyanide.
my career eventually morphed into doing stuff with the lasers, adjusting them they can now image directly on the printing plate with a laser and that elliminated film from the prointing industry.it also made dramatic differences to the resolution. it replaced all the people who assembled film, film strippers they were called.
I think i got a little off topic..
withthe hardening and annealing you can use a furnace, i went over to our local machine shop as I had a little project and wanted to harden stuff I was making..
they have a kiln for that but that is to change the hardness of metals, its more controlled than heating stuff with a torch and dropping it in oil or water..
case hardening is different.
Il ocasionally want to make a tool out of tool steel I can buy drill rod , heat it and harden it. that is machinable. there is a bit of a science to doing it right but I've made a few things,, if you get it wrong you can make the steel brittle. but that way you can buy tool steel , machine it and you can send it out for hardening or try with a torch even just a blowtorch if it's not big. I made some various punches that Ive been using for 30 years and they did stand up well. I made a spring hook tool its for pushing on and pulling on little springs.
rockers are cast iron so I dont think that type of metal lends itself to heat hardening so it was case hardened. the carbon gets into the surface of the iron at near melting temps and goes hard on the surface.
it might be possible to poliish them and maybe get a machien shop that knows their metalurgy to case harden them for you. I guess you might need to do that if its a real oddball engine. for a common ford probably not worthwhile.
anyway in the pic you can see some pitting where the valves contact, it might be best left alone rather than to polish and remove the hardness. what we see there is likely quite typical for an older engine. Id just take it ointo account that if there is an impression , the feeler guage is affected.
now the pros her may know a lot more but I believe this can lead to one setting the valves too loose, that may mean they dont open as far or when they close the dwell time of them being closed is increased. I think if you go too far the other way and set them too tight then you are reducing the dwell time that they are closed. the heat on the valves transfers when they are closed so a shorter close time might lead to exhaust valves burning.. I think if they are a bit too loose it might tick a bit more. from what Ive been told it is probably better to have them on the loose side and closed longer than to burn valves..
I think the impression would possibly cause one to set them a bit on the loose side due to the depression.
float is different thats when the springs cant return the lifter fast enough and it hops and lands on the cam , destroying the cam and lifters.
I found issues with that and added washers under the springs, what suprised me was it took very little shim to make a big difference. its something I;d pay closer attention to if I had a head machined.. as it changes the spring's sprung and unspring length and that is important and maybe easy to miss. it did catch me and I ate a cam to learn a lesson in that.
at first I thought well I had this company weld up the lobes and re grind the cam to change the profile so I called and said their welds got messed up , and I felt the welding was the cause. he would not listen to that argument, and said no it never happens and its my fault.. and they did this on a very regular basis. that was their specialty.
I bought a new cam and lifters for the next round. Same profile. I actually believe he was right though, as adding even just thin washers made all the valve float go away. you can hear it when it happens, at higher revs .. I thnk with experience youd recognise it by sound and fix it hopefully straight away , before things got really destroyed.
I guess if you throw on a carb and headers and rev it higher this may be important, to recognise it before it destroys stuff.
I'm not sure that double springs or stronger springs are always the answer , then its putting more pressure on the cam and lifters.. the experts here will know way more than I do on all that.
I'm reasoning that the block and crank can take higher RPMs but valve float may cause failure first, if rev limits are pushed. I find the sound of the dragster engines so fascinating.
it might show up at a garage sale or something.. evidently there are ways using bone or charcoal .. if you read the machinist and gun making forums they have info on how to do it with what is available.
now people freak out about their kids buying toys with lead paint and I think back to my brother, he had a kit to melt lead and pour your own lead soldiers, and he also had pre made soldiers that came with little cigarettes for the soldiers , that you could light lol..
I was trained to pour my own babbitt bearings and fit them, one thing they enhanced was that if there is any water in the mold, even a drop, when you pour in the moleton lead it can blow up in your face. pretty dangerous toy ..
I remember the old steam engines too. i bought a couple in the past few years, you sit at the kitchen table and have a little fire boiling the tank to make steam. it was fun.. you can still buy those if you want to re-live your youth ;-)
steam engines | Wilesco
How does a steam engine work? Traditional manufacturer Wilesco explains it to you! Experience the technical fascination with the Wilesco models now!
for the first couple years of my career I stood beside a pot of moleton lead , to make type for printing. it was always kept moleton otherwise it took hours to heat up. they used lead tin and antimony, that was I think the same as for the babitt bearings, maybe the percentages varied. it expands as it cools..
in print shops wed always have these ingots around as it was used it was re-melted and used over. I still have a printing press that used lead , like the one john boy ran on the waltons. a treadle machine..
originally in printing darkroom work was used to do color separations to make 4 plates yellow cyan magenta and black, wed use a big camera and take picturs of the color picture through filters. and a contact screen was placed over the film, that broke the image into dots. it produced 4 pieces of film they were used ot make the 4 aluminum printing plates.
if there was a little too much of one color then we could immmerse the film in it , that was called dot etching. it decreased the density of the film to adjust the color.. that was an old practice now way outdated. all done by digital means now. but that was potrassium ferricyanide.
my career eventually morphed into doing stuff with the lasers, adjusting them they can now image directly on the printing plate with a laser and that elliminated film from the prointing industry.it also made dramatic differences to the resolution. it replaced all the people who assembled film, film strippers they were called.
I think i got a little off topic..
withthe hardening and annealing you can use a furnace, i went over to our local machine shop as I had a little project and wanted to harden stuff I was making..
they have a kiln for that but that is to change the hardness of metals, its more controlled than heating stuff with a torch and dropping it in oil or water..
case hardening is different.
Il ocasionally want to make a tool out of tool steel I can buy drill rod , heat it and harden it. that is machinable. there is a bit of a science to doing it right but I've made a few things,, if you get it wrong you can make the steel brittle. but that way you can buy tool steel , machine it and you can send it out for hardening or try with a torch even just a blowtorch if it's not big. I made some various punches that Ive been using for 30 years and they did stand up well. I made a spring hook tool its for pushing on and pulling on little springs.
rockers are cast iron so I dont think that type of metal lends itself to heat hardening so it was case hardened. the carbon gets into the surface of the iron at near melting temps and goes hard on the surface.
it might be possible to poliish them and maybe get a machien shop that knows their metalurgy to case harden them for you. I guess you might need to do that if its a real oddball engine. for a common ford probably not worthwhile.
anyway in the pic you can see some pitting where the valves contact, it might be best left alone rather than to polish and remove the hardness. what we see there is likely quite typical for an older engine. Id just take it ointo account that if there is an impression , the feeler guage is affected.
now the pros her may know a lot more but I believe this can lead to one setting the valves too loose, that may mean they dont open as far or when they close the dwell time of them being closed is increased. I think if you go too far the other way and set them too tight then you are reducing the dwell time that they are closed. the heat on the valves transfers when they are closed so a shorter close time might lead to exhaust valves burning.. I think if they are a bit too loose it might tick a bit more. from what Ive been told it is probably better to have them on the loose side and closed longer than to burn valves..
I think the impression would possibly cause one to set them a bit on the loose side due to the depression.
float is different thats when the springs cant return the lifter fast enough and it hops and lands on the cam , destroying the cam and lifters.
I found issues with that and added washers under the springs, what suprised me was it took very little shim to make a big difference. its something I;d pay closer attention to if I had a head machined.. as it changes the spring's sprung and unspring length and that is important and maybe easy to miss. it did catch me and I ate a cam to learn a lesson in that.
at first I thought well I had this company weld up the lobes and re grind the cam to change the profile so I called and said their welds got messed up , and I felt the welding was the cause. he would not listen to that argument, and said no it never happens and its my fault.. and they did this on a very regular basis. that was their specialty.
I bought a new cam and lifters for the next round. Same profile. I actually believe he was right though, as adding even just thin washers made all the valve float go away. you can hear it when it happens, at higher revs .. I thnk with experience youd recognise it by sound and fix it hopefully straight away , before things got really destroyed.
I guess if you throw on a carb and headers and rev it higher this may be important, to recognise it before it destroys stuff.
I'm not sure that double springs or stronger springs are always the answer , then its putting more pressure on the cam and lifters.. the experts here will know way more than I do on all that.
I'm reasoning that the block and crank can take higher RPMs but valve float may cause failure first, if rev limits are pushed. I find the sound of the dragster engines so fascinating.
Last edited:
Sorry Chris (@fritschn ) I just had to continue off topic for another moment...
@philford, Yes, growing up in the 70's provided a lot of freedom; you know, as long as you were able to avoid any injuries that were too permanent. My parents had no idea of the crazy things we got into.
Anyway, your mention of bottle openers reminded me that I inherited the bottle opener I made my dad in grade 8 as well as that ball peen hammer and a clamp I made him in grade 9. I excelled in metal work and electronics and by Grade 10 I had free reign and I was designing and building steam engines. That ball peen hammer had a lot of use. He built a couple of cars in our garage (ground up, full builds, mechanics and bodywork).
Photo I took a moment ago of the only things I think I have from around 1978-79.
philford
Famous Member
my dad went ot an auction and they were selling the two lathes from our high school shop, ( sign of the times I guess)
he already had a small lathe , a hercus, which is a southbend clone.. he bough both for a good price and passed each of his sons one. I ended up with the metric one which is fine, its a Boxford,, 9 inch.. I managed to get a small milling attachment, a rare accesory and its for a bit larger lathe but Im adapting it to fit my lathe so I can mill at least small items. I could spend hours making little things but itis actually very handy for simple things like just making a washer a special size or things like that.. Its nice to be able to make or fix a part and nto have to run around looking for odd little parts. I have a l coupl eof larger ones I use for work. and the bit of training I got coupled with practice and learning has helped a lot in my trade. I fix machiens of all sorts so it' nice to have those skills. nowadays they train a lot of CNC machinists but manual machining is a skill in itself and best for little one off projects. sorry its off topic from the thread. lots of us here seem to be home machinists so it's probably an interesting topic for another thread.
he already had a small lathe , a hercus, which is a southbend clone.. he bough both for a good price and passed each of his sons one. I ended up with the metric one which is fine, its a Boxford,, 9 inch.. I managed to get a small milling attachment, a rare accesory and its for a bit larger lathe but Im adapting it to fit my lathe so I can mill at least small items. I could spend hours making little things but itis actually very handy for simple things like just making a washer a special size or things like that.. Its nice to be able to make or fix a part and nto have to run around looking for odd little parts. I have a l coupl eof larger ones I use for work. and the bit of training I got coupled with practice and learning has helped a lot in my trade. I fix machiens of all sorts so it' nice to have those skills. nowadays they train a lot of CNC machinists but manual machining is a skill in itself and best for little one off projects. sorry its off topic from the thread. lots of us here seem to be home machinists so it's probably an interesting topic for another thread.
All true of course, I spent the last 10 years of my working life with a Microcut lathe and turret mill Taiwan made, metric machines, made a lot of one off experiemental parts. Also made quite a few bits for my ute project. I was a tradie motor mech, plus a dip mech eng. The Hurcus you mention were Australian made, a lot of them in tech schools here in Australia. There is still quite a lot of work for manual machinist iin the mining and power generation areas.
That’s awesome. Man I wanted a lathe at home, when I was a kid. I now can understand why my parents didn’t share my passion for an extra ton of machinery in the house. Can you imagine moving day when junior moves into his first apartment, lol.
Your mention of making one off specialty parts reminded me again of running to the machine shop at school and making a specialty part. I had a dirt bike when I was a kid and one of the kids in my neighborhood rode it into a wall and broke the foot peg off. Not a problem, it’s just the pin that held the peg on. Off to school I go and I turn my own pin. Drill the end for a cotter pin and I’m back on the bike. I did that all the time. We used to sand cast aluminum and bronze too. I couldn’t convince my teacher to let me sand cast a crossflow head for my dad’s MG though. Our blast furnace at school wasn’t big enough. Good time.
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