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The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

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The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #1 by bubba22349 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:55 pm

This is info gathered togeater from our many site members who generously gave their time in detailing their experiences plus great pictures all in one place to try and clear up and simplify the info on the small Six block differences.

The Summery of Ford Small Inline Six Block Differences

1. All the early small six blocks built from July 1959 (for the first year 1960 Falcon / Comet production run) to end of 1965 model run with block numbers C0DE to C5DE. These early 144, 170 or 200 blocks will only have the bolt pattern for the small six bell housings that were only used with the 8 1/2 inch clutch and dog dish flywheel in the cars, along with a 2.77 trans. All two speed Ford O Matic / Merc O Matic's cars used this same small patern bell housing too.

2.In 1966 the C6DE block was the first to have a duel bolt bell housing pattern these engines got the bigger 9 inch clutch and flat type flywheel, or the Duel Range C4 Cruise o Matic that still used the smaller bell housing bolt pattern. Though I can't prove it at this time I think that all the high mount starter 170 and 200 blocks made in 1966 to end of production will likely be the duel bolt pattern blocks C6DE, C7DE, C8DE, C9DE. So they can use eigher the larger pattern bell housing for the 9 inch flywheel clutch combo or the small patern bell housing. All C4 transmissions 1964 to 1979 used the smaller bolt pattern bell housing size. So far I have not worked on, found, or seen any pictures of a single bell housing pattern D0DE to D9DE series blocks or one that was not drilled and tapped with both patterns. These block can fit in early model 1960 to 62 cars with the small bell housings or some amount of BFH work to floors and the trans tunel when used with the bigger 9 inch bells.

3. Last are the more rare 1980 to 82 200 Big Bell housing blocks with low starter mount these resemble 2/3 of the small block V8 block patern and were used with the C5 trans and a lock up torque converter (see C4 and C5 differance's). These blocks are not the best for swapping into the early model cars especially in the 1960 to early 1962 as the larger bell pattern is going to require lots of work and or floor and trans tunnel cutting and replacement to fit. Also the oil pan and oil pump pickup tube is wrong to fit the cross members of the 1960 to 1973 cars and will need to be swapped out to the early style 1960 to 1977 (and few later models up to 1979) 200 version oil pan.

In this video below it covers the differance's between the Case Fill C4 157 tooth flex plate (this is the first one) and the Pan Fill C4's 164 tooth flex plate (in the second one). Pay close attention to how many bolts hold the bells on to the C4 case and you can also see there is a difference in the two cases. The 164 tooth bells can not be used on the case fill C4 trans they won't bolt up and are not interchangeable with the 157 tooth bells. The third trans is a C5 that fits the rare late 200 six big bell blocks (its 2/3 of a 302 V8 bell) that were used in the Fox chassis cars like a 1981 to 82 Fairmount, Mercury Zepher, Mustang, & Capri.

The differance's in both of the C4's cases and bell housing mounting, plus the later lock up C5's
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Rzq5WO-MA

4. All 1969 up to 1983 250 blocks are the same size and will have the same bell hosing patern as the Ford 6 bolt 289, 302, 5.0 V8's. They can be swapped into the 1967 up cars using factory mounts they will also fit into the late 1962 to 1966 models fairly easy with special parts or custom mounts. They have also been swapped into the very early cars 1960 to early 1962 though it's more work in the trans tunnel and floor boards to fit them.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #2 by lavron » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:28 am

I have the Econoline bell and 3.03 transmission on my '64 170, I think earlier I had not made it clear that my flywheel and clutch are still the dog dish and are original to the 170 (the flywheel not the clutch) I can't say for sure what van the bell housing came out of I found it lying on the ground at the junk yard but after trying to fit every bell housing in the country I could find and none fitting I could tell by sight it was what I needed.

I pulled the 3.03 top loader out of van and then swapped the tailtshaft housing from a 3.03 I had pulled out of a '72 Maverick because there was a difference in the length of the input shaft and I could not swap them out, every time I tightened the bolts on the bearing housing the transmission would lock up, finally I went to the other end of the transmission and the tail shafts did not have a problem swapping over.

I did all that 30+ years ago so I can't remember exactly what the difference was but I think the Econoline bell is shallower than the car bell because I actually dropped the car (fell off the jack) on my chest while trying to get the transmission to go all the way into the bell and it lacked about 1/2" of mating to the bell housing, I thought something else was keeping the trans from going all the way in so I was pushing and shaking on it. I still had tires on the car so it just bounced down on me and left a round bruise on my chest where a bolt hit me and scared the devil out of me (used jack stands the next time, well from that day forward)

Anyway hopefully that is some kind of confirmation on getting the 3.03 to bolt onto a small bolt pattern block.

See Ya,
Mike
64 Comet 202 Sedan, 250- I6, Air Ride, Mll, 8.8 LSD, 4 wheel Discs
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The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #3 by chad » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:39 am

"Oh the tail of whoa we weave" !
I can't weave my spell cuz it involved my 1st break job
('64 Dart waggy while using liilcid drugs/as an impoverished college student)
but add a decade to Brother Mike's story...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #4 by chero1369 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:14 am

Guessing we need to start posting depth of assorted bellhousings.
I'll get the number off my 76 Mustang 2 housing that allowed me to use the old bellcrank/rod setup.Fresh engine coming up.
Had a 3.03,toploader,SROD,T&C OD in it,probably take a T-18,but why?Dual pattern trans.mount.
So, when I get there, I'll post casting number and depth.
Anyone think of other info that might be helpful?

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The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #5 by chad » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:14 am

not to duplicate modern drive (or whoever) but how bout C4 info...?
My bronk (any of them) may have the only pan fill C4s that were made?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #6 by bubba22349 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:49 pm

Thank you Mike, on the confirmation of your 3.03 swap using the Econoline bell housing with the dog dish flywheel and 8 1/2 inch clutch. I think if we could find the casting number for the Econoline bell housing that could be of some help too.

Thank you chero1369, those casting numbers and dementions will be helpful too.

Chad C4's are fairly easy with their bolt on bell housings the cars use Case Fill small bell housing these will bolt up to any of the of the small pattern Ford Six blocks from a 144, 170, and up to any 200 block. Or for use on a 250 six the car 6 bolt V8 bell housing will be a direct interchange (used on the later 1965 289 up, or all 302 / 5.0, 351 C & 351W used with a 157 tooth count flex plate. Some of the big Ford / Mercury cars and all trucks stock will use Pan Fill (164 tooth count flex plates to bolt up to a 250's, 240, 300, Six'es and all small block V8's late 1965 289, 302, 351 C & W) many racers prefer to use the Pan Fill type C4 as its a bit stronger. Stock the 1964 to 1966 model C4's are all Duel Range (Green Dot P,R,N,D1,D2,L) and the 1967 up to end of production are Select Shift (P,R,N,D,2,1) which is much better for Hi Performance. Any year C4 can be upgraded with the right parts though it is usally cheaper to start with a later model one this is why I like to use the 1972 and up transmissions which will all ready have all those better factory improvements. :thumbup: :nod: Edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #7 by lavron » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:51 pm

I will try to look for the casting number tomorrow, hopefully it will be on the outside because it is all still bolted to the engine and transmission, I will try and get a depth measure too. If I can find the casting/part number on the 3.03 I will post that up as well.

See Ya,
Mike
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The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #8 by chad » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:34 pm

U Go Mike, thanks !

The early Bronco had the option of an automatic transmission C4 from 1973-77.
Thnx Bubba.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #9 by B RON CO » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:44 pm

Hi Chad, I thought all Ford six Broncos were 3 speeds, with a 170. I don't think Ford put in a 200. The C4 only came on the V8. I'm thinking you got a 250 and C4 later on. Any sign of the 3 speed stuff left in there? Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #10 by lavron » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:17 pm

Ok I decided to take one for the team and disassembled the bell and transmission from the 170, there was a big old rat nest inside the bell anyway :roll: Have to look this bell up now that I have a number or someone may know, remember I picked this up off the ground so I have no idea what it came out of but it has a '63 part number.
Image

Looks like it is around 5 1/2" deep.

Image

The transmission I know came out of an Econoline van and has a '68 part number code, it is dual mount pattern but I really don't know if they are all that way (3.03) I do know this transmission has a shorter input shaft than a '72 Maverick :roll: and you cannot swap the input shaft into the Maverick transmission and I ended up putting the tail shaft and housing off the Maverick onto the van trans (that worked, I know I am repeating here from my earlier post).
Image

Also lying around someplace I have one of the cast iron bell housings it may have come off the van trans and I think the Maverick bell, if I can dig them out I will get numbers and measurements and post some picts, BTW neither of them worked on the 170 I think they might be big pattern on the engine block side.

Also, but I don't know where it is I have a Maverick 3.03 with a van tail shaft :roll:

EDIT: As I think back there seemed to be an issue with the diameter of the bearing retainer on the transmissions and some would not fit into the center hole of the bell.

See Ya,
Mike
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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #11 by chad » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:08 pm

B RON CO wrote:Hi Chad, I thought all Ford six Broncos were 3 speeds, with a 170. I don't think Ford put in a 200. The C4 only came on the V8. I'm thinking you got a 250 and C4 later on. Any sign of the 3 speed stuff left in there? Good luck

Sorry, "No" and "No".
Bronk hada 200 in '73'n4 only.
Yes C4 only w/302 (no 289/5.0 autos).
(u used the phrase "still wrkin...") & so I hope to get the 250'n NV3550 in this month
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #12 by lavron » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:27 pm

Did a quick Google search, the C3UA-6394-A is for a '63-'66 Econoline with a 170.

The C8AR-7008-B (I can't find a "B" reference) 68 top loader casting used '68-'71.

Makes sense I guess that they would fit together, I guess I would have to have the tag know all the skinny and I don't.

See Ya,
Mike
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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:09 am

Thank you Mike, the Econoline bell housing casting number info is the biggest piece of the puzzle for this combo. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #14 by chad » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:47 am

not sure if stuff like this helps:
https://picclick.com/Ford-Aluminum-Bell ... 80057.html
there's plenty of it out there. I all ways wonder if we should collate it here on the site (repetition) for our members.
Takes some concentrated effort to weed thru it & as I say "collate' it, post it, etc...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #15 by bmbm40 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:21 pm

Yes lots of good numbers and info here and I bookmarked this. Would be a good contribution to a sticky considering the ongoing activity with trans swaps. I would have to look but I think there is good info at Modern Driveline also. I have seen on here at least one good compilation by a member on a T5 install. It would be nice to have some member supplied articles similar to this on classicbroncos.com:
https://classicbroncos.com/tech/category/transmission

And the base 6 for the Bronco should have at least been the 250 starting in 1969! Or better yet the 300 but it would have been a little snug.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 2v, power brakes, rear LS, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #16 by Econoline » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:25 am

The 250's hauled some heavy cars around. I'd bet a lot of those 70's wagons and sedans weigh more than my van. Including it's 160# weight bolted in above the fuel tank behind the rear axle :D Like the '71 mustang. It's got to clock in pretty heavy from the looks of it. How much does one of those weigh? The 144 was standard equipment in 61-64 Econolines. A '64 "Heavy Duty" van had a solid lifter 170 w/ a 9" rear end! LOL
It ain't gonna fix itself

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The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #17 by chad » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:22 pm

"...How much does one of those weigh? ..."
'70 Ford 500 wagon -
"Curb weight (without a driver):1860 kg / 4101 lbs"
(302 motor though)

'65 stang
Curb weight (without a driver):1189 kg / 2621 lbs

'69 stang:
Curb weight (without a driver):1295 kg / 2855 lbs

231 # difference, well that pretty much squashes that theory "went to the 250 frm 200 due to increased weight. :hmmm:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks and Bell Housing Combos

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:57 pm

Bell Housings and Transmissions

From 1960 to 1965 there were about 5 different bell housings used by Ford for the different car and truck model lines behind the 144, 170 and 200 Small Six's. These Manual Trans Bell Housings were all the same height and or distance from the back of the block (about 5 1/2 inch). These are all made for the single drilled small bell bolt pattern, and all are used with the 132 tooth Dog Dish Flywheel, the 8 1/2 inch clutch. And the same throwout bearing fork. The Aluminun bell housings will use a thin tin block plate (about 1/8) the plate is installed before the flywheel so it's sandwiched between bell housing and back of the block. On the very early ones the bell housing bolts up to the back of the block without the tin block plate, I think this is the one Cast Iron type bell housing should have a C0 casting number. Also all these bells will have the narrow Ford trans bolt pattern that Ford started using back in 1949. There are adapter plates to install a T5 trans with these bell housings see Modern Driveline for one source of parts and info for this swap.
http://transmission.moderndriveline.com ... e-p138.htm

The Early Bell Housings

2 Aluminun Bell Housings and 1 Cast Iron that were made for use with the Borg Warner HED 2.77 3 Speed Transmission. See below for more info on these transmissions. Some of the Casting numbers are C0DD-6394-A, C3DA-6394-B, C5DA-6394-A,

1 Aluminun Bell Housing to fit the Dagenham 4 Speed Transmission in 1962 & 1963. Gear ratios 3.163 1st, 2.214 new, 1.412 rd, 1.00 4th. Good trans for stock use though is considered weak for a performance use, rebuild parts are still available but are starting to get harder to locate companies that carry them. There is a T5 adapter plate made for this Bell Housing too.

1 Aluminun Bell Housing (C3UA-6394-A) made to fit the new for 1963 Ford built 3.03 top loader 3 Speed for use in the Heavy Duty Econoline models. This bell housing was used in some of the Econoline's (144 and the 170engines) from 1963 to 1967. The great thing about this unique factory bell housing is that it can be used to swap the bullet proof all Sincro's 3.03 trans into your early model Falcon / Comet car, Fairlane, Ranchero pickup ect. Thanks to Mike "lavron" for taking apart his setup to provide these details, measurements, and pictures of this excellent swap that he did 30 years ago on the 170 in his 1964 Mercury Comet (see his above posts for the details in #2 & #10 showing the parts he used and how he did it). See below for more info on these transmissions. If I remember correctly I think frozenrabbit is also using this bell swap in his Ranchero build.

Ford Six Manual Transmission Swap Parts
http://straightsixshootin.weebly.com

Modern Driveline Article on Ford Six Bell Housings
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technica ... cation.htm

Modern Driveline Article on Flywheels and Clutches
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technica ... tch-up.htm

I think they did a good job on their article, but were it might confuse some people is their statement that all the later models only used the 9 inch clutch and flat flywheel. This is for sure a true statement, however this doesn't mean that all the later 200 block aren't also drilled as duel pateren blocks. Since the C4 was used from 1964 through to about the end of the 200 engine production in Fotds models of (1981- 83) and it was only made in one configuration for the small block six'es (with the exception of the 1980's big bell 200 low mount starter for use with the C5 trans) all others using the C4 used the smaller bell housing bolt pattern so I believe that all these later high mount 200 blocks would also need to be drilled with both patterns too.

The Borg Warner HED (2.77) 3 Speed Transmission
These small, light weight, medium duty transmissions were made in mostly colum shift (3 on the tree) versions in the early models. Also there were some made with a Ford factory floor shift for use in the 1964 1/2 to 1966 Mustangs, Delux Falcon Futura's and I think also some S22 Comets with the bucket seats. These transmissions only have sincro's in 2nd and 3rd gear so you need to come to a compleat stop to go into 1st. Gear Ratio were 3.39 1st, 1.97 2nd, 1.00 3rd / High, a few of the Casting numbers are 1U3B, 1U3C. The HED is suitable for stock to mild use.

Econoline Transmissions
http://www.econoline.org/transmission.php?s=id

If you plan on building up your engine for more even performance and or plain on doing some sprinted driving than you should upgrade the trans to at least to the excellent 3.03 or go with a T5. A B&W T10 could also be adapted with a little work though they are sometimes commanding high prices so it maybe much cheaper to just go with a T5.

Ford or Mercury Small Block Six Cars that were ordered with an Automatic Transmission used the Aluminum Bell / Case 2 Speed Ford O / Merc O Matic until 1964. Then in late 1964 some 200's would get the newer C4 Duel Range 3 Speed Trans.

1966 was the first year of the 3.03 car type bell housings for use with the larger 136 Tooth Flat Flywheel and bigger 9 inch Clutch combo. C6DA-6394-A. The 1966 Bell housing still used the same small trans bolt pattern as the early bells. They will use the two bolt starter.

1967 C7ZA-6394-A is the first year for a 3.03 bell with the bigger wider trans bolt pattern they were drilled for both the large and small trans bolt patern. All the Bells from this year through to atleast 1978 are basically the same and will all use the 136 Tooth flat flywheel and 9 inch clutch combo. There are two throwout bearing arms for them and the bell uses the two bolt starter. There is a adapter plate made to fit the T5 to these bells also, see Modern Driveline for parts and info on these there are two that are made.

First is clocked 5 degrees.
http://transmission.moderndriveline.com ... -7p137.htm

No rotation
http://transmission.moderndriveline.com ... -7p537.htm

250 Six Bell Housings
The 250's from 1969 to 1983 all used a 6 bolt bell housings made for the 3.03 a top loader 4 speed will also bolt up. Because the 250 shares the same bolt pattern as the 5.0 V8 any thing that can bolt to a 5.0 can also bolt up to the 250, the starter is the same as the 302 / 5.0 too. Including th C4, C5, C6, AOD, AODE, and many more. Flywheels and Flex plates with 157 tooth count fit most 1965 up cars and with little BFH / hammer work the 1962 up cars can fit them, 1960 & 61 cars take more work.

The 3.03 Ford Transmissions

These are a great Ford designed trans that was first introduced in 1963 in the Econoline Heavy Duty Vans and they are bullet proof transmissions, so much so that they were used even behind the big block Ford V8's. A little known fact is that GM also needed a stronger trans for use behind their big block V8 engines (BOPE) in their Buick's, Olds, and Pontiac's models, so they made a deal with Ford to supply them the 3.03 in the 1960's, also the they were used by AMC in 1976 to 79 CJ 5 Jeeps used the 3.03 (know as the T150) with a floor shifter top cover, these shifters can be swaped onto the Ford trans versions too for use in like a F100 to F350 or maybe in some of the Econoline Vans if you wanted a floor shifter.

Gear ratios came in four versions in the various model Fords
Econoline trans in 1963 to 1967 behind the 144 & 170 small six'es they had ratios of 3.41 1st, 1.86 2nd, 1.00 3rd. These same gear ratios were also used in the early Bronco 170 six in 1966 and 1967. This is good for some swap s as you could use this low 1st gear ratio with a higher rear axle gear ratio for a little better MPG / economy. These three speeds can be regeared using any of the available factory gear sets that were offered so with a little work you could come up with a custom setup. To do this you would need the cluster gear, plus it's matching main shaft gears, and reverse gear. These are the other three ratios Ford used.

2.99, 1.75, 1.00, 3.17 Used in Ford pickups.
2.79, 170, 1.00,
2.42, 1.61, 1.00, 2.33. Used behind the FE V8's (352, 360, & 390 engines) has the closest ratio spread.

The 3.03 main cases are 12 inches long and there are four different tail housing lengths for a total trans lenght of 25 1/2, 26, 27 inches. I don't know the Econoline lenght which is the shortest. I don't know what the GM, or AMC Jeeps, tail housing measure. Ford input shafts came in two Diameters of 1 1/16 or for big block V8's in a 1 3/8 inch, there may also be two different lengths too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_To ... ansmission

Borg Warner also built an excellent 3 speed with Overdrive trans with the 3.03 front case and gears called the T85 (using their bullet proof R-11 OD unit on the tail housing) I have mostly only seen these transmissions in the mid to late 1960's Ford Pickups and one that I bought for my 1958 Ranchero it looked like was a car application. But If you can find one of these transmissions and don't mine modding or building a custom crossmember to mount it in your car and cutting down your drive shaft or having a new one built, they are great shifting and with some custom wiring (ask me if you need this info) you can then have a custom 6 speed Trans that's excellent and in my OPIN is even better than a T5.

Borg Warner Overdrive Operation
http://www.fordification.com/tech/overdrive.htm

The top loader 4 Speed is also built on this design so could be easy swap too however they are getting expensive and you could likely get a good deal still on a T5.

Top Loader 4 speeds
https://www.5speeds.com/toploader.html

The T170 RUG trans is a lookalike Overdrive trans 3 Speed overdrive used in some cars and Ford pickups.


D9 bell housing (1979 to 1983) was made for the SROD trans is an Overdrive 4 Speed Trans this bell is 3/4 inch taller and though it looks like the same mounting as the earlier 3.03. But the SROD bell housing center hole is 4.85 I don't know what the earlyier 3.03 measures yet? and because the input shaft is 3/4 inch longer too it might only be able to be used with A D9 bell. There might be a T5 adapter plate or way to mod the bell for use with T5, I don't know this yet?

Last is the T4 bell (1981) was made for the Fox Chassis cars and it uses a cable type clutch throwout gearing arm this bell was made for a he T4 trans which is the forerunner to the T5 it uses the same mounting points and larger 4.91 center hole so it can be used to bolt up a T5 trans without an adapter plate.

T5 swaps for the Falcon Six

The T5's are an excellent and easy upgrade for the Falcon Six the T5's that are suitable and fit our Falcons, Comets, Mustangs, six'es are those were used in the Fox chassis cars. They came in two versions a 2.3 4 cylinder T5's (these have lower gear ratios) and the 5.0 V8 T5's adistionally there was an early non World Class and later stronger World Class. T5's from 1982 to 1993 have the correct input shaft lenght to fit the orginal stock Ford six bell housings with several available adapter plates. The later SN95 T5's from 1994 and 1995 5.0 V8 / 2.3 4 cylinder cars can also be used by swaping the in the 3/4 inch shorter input shaft from an earlier T5 World Class Fox chassis trans 1993 and older. There are also many online sources to help I'd the T5's by there tag numbers and help you combine parts from other brands such as the S10 tail housing conversion or even rebuilding a World Class T5 to handle up to 500 horsepower if you need that kind of info. Modern Drive also has newer versions of the Tremic T5 that can fited and complete swap kits contact them for these options if you want a compleate or partial Kit example below is for parts available for the 1964 1/2 to 1966 Mustangs.

https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop/so ... s-1965-66/



The C4 Auto Trans

The C4's are another of Fords excellently designed transmissions, they can be built up to handle lots of Horsepower and Torque. Parts availability (Factory and Aftermarket) is very good because of its popularity. They are fairly easy to install since they use the small early bolt pattern, block plate, flex plate, and torque converter with its mounted 132 tooth ring gear, can fit any early single or duel bolt pattern block to 1979. The exception is the 1980's big bell 200 block were you could use the 5.0 V8 bell to fit it. The cars all use a Case Fill C4 small bell housing these will bolt up to any of the of the small pattern Ford Six blocks from a 144, 170, and up to mosh any 200 block again except for the rare 1980 up big bell 200 block. Or for use on a 250 six the car 6 bolt V8 bell housing will be a direct interchange (used on the later 1965 289 up, or all 302 / 5.0, 351 C & 351W used with a 157 tooth count flex plate, use the same V8 starter on the 250, 240, and 300 six. Some of the big Ford / Mercury cars and all trucks stock will use Pan Fill (164 tooth count flex plates to bolt up to a 250's, 240, 300, Six'es and all small block V8's late 1965 289, 302, 351 C & W) many racers prefer to use the Pan Fill type C4 as its a bit stronger. Stock the 1964 to 1966 model C4's are all Duel Range (Green Dot P,R,N,D1,D2,L) and the 1967 up to end of production are Select Shift (P,R,N,D,2,1) which is much better for Hi Performance.

Ford C4 Identification 1964 to 1972
http://fordification.com/tech/transapps_65-72cars.htm

Ford C4 identification 1973 to 1979 Cars and Bronco's
http://www.fordification.net/tech/trans ... 79cars.htm

Lincoln Mercury Cars C4 Identification 1973 to 1979
http://www.fordification.net/tech/trans ... ncMerc.htm

Ford C4 & C5 info
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C4_transmission

Any year C4 can be upgraded with the right parts though it is usally cheaper to start with a later model one this is why I like to use the 1972 302 or 351 V8 and up transmissions which will all ready have all those better factory improvements. There are many Mod's to improve this trans starting with a good shift kit such as TranSGo and a aftermarket auxiliary trans cooler, different servo covers, using the V8 drums for extra clutches and steels. Another one of my favorites is what Is called a "Poor Mans Overdrive" were you use a low gear set, this allows you to use a higher rear axle gear ratio for better MPG / Economy without sacrificing performance. There are also overdrive units that can be added onto the back of the trans.


let me know if you have anything to add or any part of this that needs correcting. :nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #19 by bubba22349 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:13 pm

xctasy wrote:Yep, if its ex automatic, everything will fit on the stock dowls. The D8 with a GC suffix is 1978-1983 block, high mount.

Make sure you use the original fasteners that were on the old block, and the old flywheel or flexplate. They vary between manual and automatic, and the bolts can touch the main seal and create spectacular diss-arry if you put long bolts into a six open holes on the crank flange.


drag-200stang wrote:If the 78 block was a manual you just pull the two dowel pins and relocate them to the smaller auto pattern holes.


B RON CO wrote:Hi, as mentioned, the 200 blocks are drilled for the small early Falcon manual, and C4 bell housing, and the larger 9" clutch bell housing.
Use the engine spacer plate to line up the dowels. Some dowels can be punched out, and some are more difficult to yank, or just grind off flush and find a new one.
Also, the old carb won't fit on the new head.
Fortunately, the new head is a big improvement over the original.
The ignition is also better.
Get the Ford Falcon Performance Handbook to get the most out of your Ford six.
Good luck


frozenrabbit wrote:A '65 200 block is not dual pattern drilled, '65 blocks were still 8 1/2" clutch and smaller C4 bell. Dual bolt pattern started in '66.

A '78 200 is not dual pattern either, A '78 block is 9" clutch, later C4 pattern only.

'65 bell won't bolt to a '78 block.

StarDiero75 can vouch for this, he just dealt with a 8 1/2" to 9" 200 block swap.



xctasy wrote:Frozenrabbit is 100 % right in the statement above, for manuals; the swap of pre 66 blocks is not upwards compatible with any later non 2.77 manual gear boxes. Pre 66 blockd shoulf fit some specific later Autos, but only high mount C3/mid 1981 C4 transmissions. Any thing that came from the something like E0-6015-BB or E1BE-6015 will be low mount, and wont work either.

In context of a high mount only D8 swap to a 65 auto drivetrain, it is IIRC, drilled for the itty bitty 132 teeth flexplate and that stayed the same all years


Its only upwards compatible for auto D8-6015-GC blocks from certain years.Circumstances alter cases.

The 78 - 83 high mount bell is 132 teeth, small bolt spacing drilled for automatics.That never changed. As long as the dowels are in place, straight swap.

So if its 1978 - 1983 C3 high mount auto to whatever earlier auto, your all good. 1978-1981 high mount C4, all good too.

The 8- 1/2" clutch 2.77 manual gear box is the same pattern as the early C4's too. 9 to 9-1/8" 3.03 had to use the second set of holes, 136 teeth flywheel and that is the subtle difference.


Econoline wrote:No, that's the point of a dual pattern block, so the old small stuff will bolt up. It will be a straight bolt in. The only time you're hosed is if you are trying to go in the other direction, i.e. bolting up later 9" drivetrain to an early small pattern only block.



StarDiero75 wrote:
frozenrabbit wrote:A '65 200 block is not dual pattern drilled, '65 blocks were still 8 1/2" clutch and smaller C4 bell. Dual bolt pattern started in '66.

A '78 200 is not dual pattern either, A '78 block is 9" clutch, later C4 pattern only.

'65 bell won't bolt to a '78 block.

StarDiero75 can vouch for this, he just dealt with a 8 1/2" to 9" 200 block swap.

Aww you remembered me lol. Yes this is true. My new 1966 block is a dual drilled while the 1965 block is not. I worked on an adapter plate to go from the 8.5" to 9" setup but i had some holes that needed enlarging and some slight fitment issues. I haven't fixed the plate but thats a future project now

You can attempt to make an adapter plate from .25" plate steel but I think that'd be pointless. If you're running a C4, just get a later bell and converter.



drag-200stang wrote: I remember someone that had to drill his own small pattern dowel pin hole.,but that was probably a manufacture glitch...I also
have never seen a 66 up high mount starter not a duel pattern.
I have a low mount block and it has a 164 tooth flex plate on it, same diameter as a 300 11 '' clutch flywheel.


Thanks drag-200stang, thats Quite Interesting on the late 200 Big Bell block, a 164 tooth flex plate then with this info there's another possibility that they may have used a C5 trans with a bigger lock up converter. I haven't had the chance to have one of these rare blocks or work on one, thank you for adding more info on them. :nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #20 by bubba22349 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:39 am

Ok i think it's about everything here now on block differance's, so if the site members will go over this info and let me know if any additional info needs to be added or the things that may need to be corrected, or rearranged for better clarity too. Then we could also add some more pictures. Thank you all for sharing your info and knowledge! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Early Mustang A4LD swap

Post #21 by Charlie Cheap » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:15 am

I am trying to adapt the A4LD behind my 1973 replacement 200" motor in my 1965 Mustang coupe. Trying for over 30 MPG highway. Auto engineering formulas say my 203" SIX (.030 overbore), 2.83 gears, 26.3" tall rear tires, and a .75 overdrive will put the little engine around 1800 RPM at 75 MPH. With my cam, 2-barrel machined-mounted 2100 Autolite carb, and running the Air Conditioner, 30 plus MPG could be done. If you are looking for a project deal, I have 2 Sunbeam Alpines with one 1725 OEM motor and one 2.3 Ford just rebuilt, taken out of an 85 Mustang. Two cars not running but lots of parts. Wife's surgery, 2 contractor rip-offs for thousands, stolen car stuff (about $3,000.00) while stored during our move, and at 76 years this Oct 4th, I need to concentrate on the 65. Both with parts, $4,000.00. Abilene, Texas. I also have a 16' flatbed car trailer for $900.00 with ramps.

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Post #22 by chad » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:35 pm

horse of a different color over here on this thread CC... :evil:

May B delete/repost as a new thread. That will get U seen / the most assistance possible.
:nod:
Almost done on this thread for stickie conversion...
8)
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #23 by bmbm40 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:52 pm

What a great resource! This must be everything known about this subject.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 2v, power brakes, rear LS, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #24 by bubba22349 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:34 pm

This post is for those that want to detail their Ford's and Mercury's in the correct factory engine colors that Ford used by the Model years. The detailing that Ford used on the early model engines in late 1959 through the end of 1965 year models is my personal favorite, plus the correct color was also another way that mechanics could quickly ID the engine size of these early Fords. :thumbup: Of corse over all the years since these cars were new many have changed the engine colors during an engine rebuild, valve job or other repairs so these colors can be almost anything now and those are for sure the owners preference or choice to change them to what they want from how Ford orginally built them. Please PM me with pictures that you might have to submit of orginal cars or period correct restorations of engines, along with any addictions or corrections you might have, Enjoy :nod:

On the 1960 to 1962 cars the engine compartment was painted same as the exterior body color except for the Black cars that got sprayed or resprayed in Semi Gloss Black, Duplicolor's DE 1635 or Krylon 1613 is a good match. The 1963 to 1965 cars engine compartment were all painted in Semi Gloss Black too. The bottom of the Hood was painted in the exterior body color. The engine compartments were painted before the body started to be assembled. Brake lines and the bolts holding the fenders on were not painted and left a natural steel.

Here some pictures (below) and info on correct colors for a restoration of the early Ford Falcon and also the Mustang six engines. Ford painted the assembled Engine long-blocks, IE the block, head, front cover, water pump if cast iron, and oil pan, all in Gloss Black through the end of the 1965 year models, this included paint covering all the hardware (bolts etc.) Duplicolor's 1605 or Martin Seynour 7882 is an excellent color match. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, generators (except for the generator or Alternator pulley and the fan behind it they are left natural steel), generator or alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted Semi Gloss Black a very good match is Duplicolor's 1635.

The valve covers were painted separately from the engine, their color (for up to end of the 1965 year models) is one way that Ford and other Service Tech's used to ID the different engine sizes quickly. The Valve Covers were installed near the end of engine assembly using natural metal bolts with special integral lock washers. The oil cap breathers were painted the same color as the valve cover.

Ford engine colors

1960 to 1964 Falcon 144 engine was the base engine for the new for 1960 Falcons
Engine/Part. Color
144 Cu.In. Valve Cover Medium Blue Duplicolor's DE1606 or Martin Seynour 7958 Is reported to be a good match but I have not used it personally valve cover bolts are a natural metal
144 Cu.In. Air Cleaner Medium Blue Duplicolor's DE1606 or Martin Seynour 7958
144 Cu.In. Block, Head, Oil Pan, Gloss Black Duplicolor's DE1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is good match

This is a 170ci six cylinder it was an optional engine in the Falcons starting in 1961 it was the standard base engine used in the 1962 Failane, as well as the 1964 1/2 Mustang's in their first 5 months of production. Info I have says it has a red valve cover and air cleaner but I remember them being more of an Orange Red as were the early 170 Falcon motors. The Valve cover bolts are a natural metal.

1961 to 1965 Falcon, Fairlane, and Mustang 170 six Engine Color Reference I am not sure if I can agree with this being the same as the 200's color
Engine/Part Color
170ci valve cover Orange Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynor 7992 the valve cover bolts are a natural metal
170ci air cleaner Orange Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynour 7992
170ci block, head, oil pan Gloss Black Duplicolor's DE1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is good match

Ford 170 Six engine
Image

Here pictured is a 200 six they were introduced as the base engine in the 1964 Fairlane. They were also an optional engine in the 1965 Falcon and also became the standard base engine for the 1965 Mustang. Looks much the same as the 170 it replaced, with the exception of the deeper red valve cover and air cleaner colors. Valve cover bolts are natural metal.

1964 the 200 Falcon, Fairlane, and Mustang 200 six Engine Color Reference
Engine/Part Color
200ci valve cover Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynour 7992
200ci air cleaner Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynour 7992
200ci block, head, oil pan Semi Gloss Black Duplicolor's De1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is good match

Ford 200 Six engine
Image

For the 1966 year models and later Ford engines they were no longer color keyed to specific engine models, all Ford engines were now painted a Ford Corporate Dark Blue. This was the new color for all Ford engines for 1966 and later. As before the entire Engine long block was painted after it's assembly and the valve covers were painted separate and than installed on the engine with the same natural metal bolts with the special integral lock washers as before. Some claim the 1966 and 1967 engines were the same color as the 1968 up Corperate Ford a Dark Blue, I can't say I agree with this as I remember them being a lighter Blue, then those of the later 1960's. To add further confusion many auto parts companies market 3 different Ford Blues.

In my opion for the years 1966 and 1967 all Ford and Mercury engines were painted a different Lighter Blue! Duplicolor's DE 1621 or Pladtickote # 205 Old Ford Blue is a close match to what I remember.

In 1968 to 1972 170 six'es were still being used they were the base engines in the Falcons, Comet's, and the new 1970 Maverick's. They are painted the same as the 200's and 250's see below for example.

This is the 1966 200 engine (in the below picture) the air cleaner is made a little different from the 64 1/2 and 65 engines. All Ford engines were now painted in the Ford Blue starting in 1966, Valve cover bolts are the natural metal. The Sports Sprint models have a chrome air-cleaner housing, as did the 1966 Sprint 200, made available during Spring 1966.

1968 up Falcon, Fairlane, Maverick, Comets, and 1968 to 1973 Mustang 200 six Engine Color Reference
Engine/Part Color
200ci valve cover Dark Ford Corporate Blue Duplicolor's DE 1606 Dark Ford Blue or Plastickote # 224
200ci air cleaner Dark Ford Corporate Blue Duplicolor's DE 1606
200ci block, head, oil pan Dark Ford Corporate Blue Duplicolor's DE 1606

1966 Ford 200 Six
Image

The 1969 up Falcon, Fairlane, Maverick, Comet, Granada, Monarch, 1969 to 1973 Mustang 250 six Engine was also painted the same Dark Ford Corporate Blue.

For the 1968 up color of Ford Corporate (Dark) Blue, Duplicolor's 1606 matches this. Some other brands that also match the Ford Blue are Krylon's Ford Dark Blue and Plasticoat Royal Blue 1134. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted Semi Gloss Black a good match is Duplicolor's 1635. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #25 by bubba22349 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:36 pm

This post will cover the Factory Engine Colors for those Restoring a 1960 Comet and the 1961 to 65 Mercury Comets and Metor's Inline Sixes. After 1965 the Mercury engine were painted Blue in 1966 and 1967 was Old Ford Blue, 1968 up Dark Ford Corporate Blue just as all the Ford engines where (see above post).

The early Mercury engine detailing was done much like the Ford six'es with a few exceptions. All the 144, 170, and 200 engines built for the model years 1960 to 1965 where as follows. The assembled long blocks are painted in Gloss Black this includes the block, head, oil pan, timing cover, water pump. Duplicolor's DE1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is a very good match. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted as the Fords in Semi Gloss Black again a good match is Duplicolor's DE1635 or Krylon 1613. Comet Engine compartments were painted like the Falcons 1960 to 1962 in the exterior body color except for Black cars that got resprayed in Semi Gloss Black. Then in 1963 to 1965 the cars engine compartments were all painted Semi Gloss Black too.

The Valve Cover and Air Cleaner were painted separately in these colors. Good example pictures of the early Mercurys engine are hard to find so if you happen to have a picture or more of an original or nicely detailed Mercury Six and would like to share in this post then let me know. Enjoy :nod:

1960 to 63 144 Sixes
the valve cover and air cleaner were painted Yellow, this maybe the DuPont Dulux #24934
Picture Examples of correct early Mercury engine colors and detailing are hard to find. Here is a link to adamscm 144 engine rebuild with its great detailing work.
https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t ... or#p589788

1961 to 1965 170 Sixes the valve cover and air cleaner was painted Argent (Silver), Posable matches are Motorcraft Argent SilverPM19K207-AA available at your local Ford dealer. TECnique Argent Silver available at NAPA auto parts stores. East woods Alumablast, VHT Argent Wheel paint I haven't tried any of these yet to know how close they match to Fords original Argent colors of the 1960's.

1964 to 1965 200 Sixes the valve cover and air cleaner were painted Ivory (Creme White). This maybe the DuPont Dulux #1222

The valve cover Breather Cap was painted same color as the Valve Cover. The Valve Cover Bolts were not painted (they are Natural steel)
Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #26 by bubba22349 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:37 pm

This info is for the later model Mustangs (Fox Chassis), Mercury Capri, Granda & Monarch six'es

On the 200 (3.3L) and 250's (4.1L) engines the colors in later 1968 through to end of 1981 all Ford and Mercury engines were painted the Ford Corporate (Dark) Blue, Duplicolor's 1606 matches this. Some other brands that also match this Ford Blue are Krylon's Ford Dark Blue and Plasticoat Royal Blue 1134. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted Semi Gloss Black a good match is Duplicolor's 1635. The engines were painted assembled except for the valve cover, the bolts weren't painted and left a natural steel finish as they painted valve covers before assembly.

In 1982 Ford started painting their engines a Battle Ship Gray color Duplicolor's New Ford Gray DE 1611, VHT SP131, or Plastickote #216 is a good match. As a side note Ford stopped painting their engine blocks and heads leaving them natural cast iron sometime around 1984 or by the mid 1980's. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #27 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:22 am

Smaller, Lighter, Better Hi Torque Starters for the 200's & 250 Six'es or Other small Six'es that use a 2 Bolt Starter!

Recently there was a discussion on the big six forum on using the newer small case Motorcraft or aftermarket gear reduction starters in place of the big case old style starters. These newer starters have lots of advantages like smaller diameter cases for more header clearance, less weight, faster starting, to name a few. So though I would also share some of highlights from mine and others posts here in the small six forum as it also applies to our 250's, & 200's, and any other Small Six that uses a 2 bolt starter. To see the full topic go here view-topic.php?f=2&t=80786

When I can or perhaps other site members.will help verify applications for small case and gear reduction starters for the other small six'es 200's, 170's, 144's', that use the 3 bolt starters so we can add them into the info too. If I remember right these 3 bolt starters are the same as the Ford FE V8's (332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, & 428). Fords have two starter drive depths 3/8 or 3/4 inch. Measure from the face of your bell housing where the starter bolts on to the ring gear to determine your depth. Generally a Manual Trans bell uses a 3/8 inch depth starter and an Auto Trans has a 3/4 inch depth.

Their are some commonly available aftermarket gear reduction starters can be used if it's for the same application. Plus there are two late OEM Ford Motorcraft starters one is a smaller case and one is a Mini HI Torque starter that can be used. I remember that many of the starter rebuilders and new manufactures use a base number to ID starters for an application (not sure the correct number in this case but think it's 3157) but these particular starters will fit many Ford engines like the 200's & the big bell 200's, 250, 240, 300, 4.9, 3.8, 289, 302, 351 W's & C's ect.

Econoline wrote:The indexing hub of the starters is also slightly different based on application, m/t vs a/t. The Manual 2 bolt starter has a slightly larger hub and won't fit in the bore on an automatic trans. Conversely you can bolt up an automatic starter in a manual, but you would notice the loose fit in the bore.


Econoline brought up a great point in his above post. I have seen people use shims and spacers to adapt the wrong starters and have just wondered why. When you use the right tail piece on the starter you get the right starter drive depth and it fits into the starter mounting hole as it's supposed to. This has been a constant throughout, the starter motors are the same the tail piece for an Auto trans needs to be used for an Auto trans Bell Housing and a Manual Trans used for a Manual Trans Bell Housing.

Just like there is a direct interchange between the old large case two bolt starters and the late model small case starters used on the 1988 up EFI engines like the 4.9, 240 / 300, 5.0, 3.8 ect. As an example my orginal starter on my 1994 F150 4.9 (300) / 5 speed (small case hi torque stater) went out one day. I had a 5.0 V8 starter in the garage it's the same starter except it was for an auto trans car so I just swapped my tail end piece (starter drive section) off my 300 starter on to the 5.0 starter and popped it in worked great and the pickup was back in service in about 1 hour. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #28 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:25 am

There are two main flywheels or flex plates with tooth counts 157 & 164 plus another 141 that was used only in the sub compact cars. The 157 is then most common size its found in cars like mid 60's up Falcons Mustamgs, Fairlanes, Torino's, and their Mercury counterparts, etc, it measures 13.280 inches in Diameter. The next one with 164 tooth flywheels or flex plates being mostly used in the F series trucks, E series Vans and some bigger Ford or Mercury cars lake a Galaxy it measures 14.240 inches in diameter. There is a third size a 141 tooth flex plate (no fly wheels) it measures 11.94 inches in diameter that was used in the 1975 to 1978 Pinto's, Bobcat's, and Mustang II's with a 302 V8 and C4 / C3 trans. All of these 6 bolt bell blocks (250, 240, 300, (6's) and SBF V8's mid 1965 289, 302, 351 W, 351 C, (to name a few) all have the ability to use any of these three tooth counts by their intended transmission use. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #29 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:27 am

woodbutcher wrote::hmmm: I noticed from Bubbas posts,that the hi torque starters are direct drive.Would there be any re-wiring required for those starters?Maybe Bubba could post a bit of a schematic for the re-wire?Again,thanks to all who have posted. The provided information has been most helpful.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo



wallen7 wrote:All you have to do is add a jumper from the battery cable terminal to the solenoid terminal and it will work like the old starter. No rewiring. It will just engage 2 solenoids, the original when you turn the key and the one on the starter when power is applied to the starter terminal.



HI Woodbutcher, there is no rewiring needed when using the first Ford MotorCraft small case starter (EFI 1988 to Aprox 1995) see link to picture of example. The wiring diagram is for these starters it's essentially the same as for the older larger case starters used from 1956 up to about the end of 1986 or 87 (am not sure of the ending year). These First Gen Starters weight a hefty 16 pounds. The wiring diagram was still basicly the same with these first smaller case starters used from 1987 or 88 until the 1995 Fords. There have been some different looking solenoids used over the years and the ignistion coil full 12 volt boost wire (I terminal used during starting) was eliminated with the advent of EFI its newer Ignition system being controlled by the CPU, see link for examples but the rest of the starter wiring was still the same. This is as simple of a swap as unbolting your old large case starter then bolting in the new smaller MotorCraft starter the wiring stays the same check out all pictures in links below.

Starter circuit wiring diagram used through 1995.
https://wiringforums.com/ford-f-150-sta ... -f150-4-9/

Pictures of different Ford Solenoids
https://wiringforums.com/ford-f-150-sta ... g-diagram/

Picture Showing the Size Difference of a First Gen Ford Stater and an Aftermarket PA Performance PMGR Starter
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/e ... allery/#10

Example of First Ford small case starter 1988 to 1995
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 0_853758_0

For the Aftermarket Gear Reduction Mini starters and the Ford Motorcraft 1996 up these are the smallest case (Mini) starters there are some wiring differances see below links for pictures of examples of these starters. As an example the aftermarket PA Performance PMGR Ford starter only weighs 8 pounds. Since both of these will have the solenoid mounted on their smaller case starters, the old fender well mounted solenoid that was used with the large case starters could used or now even be eliminated. It's not too big a deal though and a few ways it can be done.

1. The old starter cable is disconnected off the back (starter) side of the old solenoid post and reconnected so that it now goes direct from the battery side of the solenoid down to the new starters battery cable largest post. This repurposes the old solenoid to operate in tandem with the new starters Solinod and is used as a stud mounting to conect the battery cable and starter cables together.

2. Then you have the starter trigger wire from the old starter cable side down to the starter thermal use a 12 to 10 gauge wire for that. That's about all there is to it (Note this) if you have a point type ignistion system or a Mallery Unilite distribtor, in that case you will need a diode (there are wire kits for this or you can make your for about 5 cents plus some wire up to coil) to allow a full 12 volts to coil during starting / cranking you can ask me if you need help with this.

3. if you also wanted to remove the old solenoid and clean up the looks a little more under the hood, then that can be done with just a little more work using a longer (Posative) battery cable. The wiring diagram would be kind of like what was used on the old 1955 up into 1990's Chevy's and other GM models of the era (see below link for a basic wiring diagram). A Bosh type Relay hooked to battery post and the old starter wire from ignistion switch is then used to trigger the relay a 12 to 10 gauge wire goes down to the starters solinod second largest post (check out the Tipical Chevy / GM wiring diagram below for some hints. See also the above Note if still using a point type ignistion.

As wallon7 posted you could link the two solenoids as in 1. & 2. so they operated together (see below link modding the Stock Ford Starter Solinod Wiring Diagram to Power the Newer Style PMGR Starter). There are also some old posts on the PowerMaster PMGR starters showing were people looped a jumper wire from the starters battery (largest) post to the second (largest) post this is a big no no and causes the starter to stay engaged with flywheel for a few seconds. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited

Aftermarket Gear Reduction Mini Starter
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-13124/make/ford

Motorcraft OEM Later style EFI the Smallest Case Ford Starter with Solinoid these can vary by application and year of use Aprox 1996 up
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 002_0_3498

Modding the Stock Ford Starter Solinod Wiring to Power the Newer Style PMGR Starter
http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/pmgr-st ... iring.html

Or Also Like This
http://cdn.wildhorses4x4.com/downloads/ ... -12-09.pdf

Tipical Chevy / GM starter wiring diagram
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/el ... 55car1.jpg
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #30 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:45 pm

sdiesel wrote:This all sounds like a dandy but of news for the engines with headers. Does a newer style starter allow more room between the header and the starter?


Yes for sure it gives you more room or clearance around the headers as you can see the differences between the First Generation (1960's to 1980's starters) and the Third Generation Motocraft starters (1996 up starters) in Econolines great Pictures in below post. All we need now is a Picture of one the Second Generation Motorcraft starters used in 1988 to 1995 to show its size In between those two. :thumbup: :nod:

Econoline wrote:I found these picture I took comparing the size of the old style vs the new style starters on my aod

Image

Image
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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bubba22349
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Re: The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

Post #31 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:45 pm

Added some starter swap info above. i think it's most of it for the time being on block differance's, so if the site members will go over this info and let me know if any additional info needs to be added or the things that may need to be corrected, or rearranged for better clarity too. Then we could also add some more pictures. Thank you all for sharing your info and knowledge! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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