At wits end...

[cfmustang]

I swear, every time I touch the enigine it gets worse and I am ready to give up and sell the damn thing!

A few month back, I posted about the tuning probems I was having and most people said two things.: Timing and tuning the weber. Well, since then I have tried adjusting both and now the car wont run at all.

Last night, I tried setting the carb back to initial settings using the instructions from weber (which are the same as I have seen all over the net). Besides problems even doing this...no diference.

It runs when I first start it (even though it is tough to start at first) and runs till the choke disengages. Then it will not idle. It stalls as though the idle is too low, even if I turn the high speed idle screw in as far as it will go.

That leads me to beleive the timing is off because those are the only two things I have ever touched since getting the car from the mechanic, but here is my main question:

Everything I have read about setting timing talks about adjusting it while the car is idleing (around 700rpm), but how do you do that if the car wont idle.

It is a chicken/egg problem.

I can't get the car to idle till I get the dizzy timed and I can't time the dizzy if it wont idle!!!!!

When an engine is first rebuilt, how do you get the dizzy set to get the ar started and running the first time?

Also, how much should the dizzy turn so you can advance/retard the timing? Mine only seems to turn about a 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch. Is that right?

Please help. I am total stumped and the next step is the giving up.

 

[MustangSix]

Do you have a timing light? Is the timing marker correct? What does it show at idle with the vacuum line disconnected?

Once you have loosened the clamp bolt, you should be able to rotate the distributor quite a bit. It may not be in the direction you need to go, but the thing will turn easily at least 90 degrees.

Verify the initial timing is at least close. Pull the #1 plug and the coil hight tension wire. put your thumb over the plug hole and bump the engine until you get compression. Then look at the timing mark and the rotor position. When you have the timing mark at your desired timing, the rotor should just be at the left edge of the #1 post (it rotates clockwise).

 

[Ronbo]

Did it do that ever since you got it back from the mechanic? Vacuum leak maybe?

 

[Anonymous]

The previous technique works well and should get you close. I'll just throw out an option that I have used on Motorcycles and VW's where you set the static timing with a 12 volt bulb and alligator clips. You clamp one clamp to the coil and one to a ground. When the points are closed, the lamp does not light. When they open, the lamp lights. The engine is rotated to the point at which the points are supposed to open. The lamp should light at this point. Adjust the distributor until the lamp just starts to light.

Also make sure the points are set to the correct gap. The gap affects the timing, and if it is way off, you may not fire correctly.

If you cannot get it running at or close to factory specs, and assuming you don't have a large vacuum, I would verify that the ring on the balancer has not slipped by ssetting the #1 cyl to TDC and seeing if the timing marks on the balancer are lined up.

 

[cfmustang]

I have a timing light, but the instructions I read say that the car has to be running up to tmepature and idleing. Then you disconnect the vac line and chenk the timeing.

A couple of problems with this:
1) there is no mark that I can see on the pully anywhere.
2) the car wont idle at temperature....that is when it stalls the second you take your foot off of the gas peddle.
3) I have losened up the dizzy hold down bolt to the point where it is almost all the way out and the dizzy will not turn more than a quarter of an inch.

As for my problem with the carb idle being too low even with the screw turned in all the way..could a float be stuck?

Lastly, it was not tuned right when I got it from the mechanic, but at least it ran (although it would stall when I put the brake on when in gear). It was when I was trying to remidy that where I apparently screwed things up completely...

 

[godheadcustoms]

A couple of questions first:

Does the dizzy not turn more than 1/4" because it's hitting something (like fuel pump) external, or is it binding internally?

There should be a small hash mark accross the dampner somewhere, on either side of the fan belt. If you have your dizzy 180 degrees out, it will be on the bottom when your looking on the top.

Go back to basics first. Like 66fb200 said, set the motor up to TDC on #1, then do the test lamp deal. It may not be perfect, but it'll get you close enough to get the motor running. Check to make sure that the plug wires are in the correct firing order. Check to make sure that the dizzy is installed correctly, it should not have any int. bind and should rotate freely. Also make sure that when your on TDC for #1, the rotor is pointed to #1 on the cap. Remember, the devil is in the details, small things can very easily get overlooked.Don't worry about the engine being warmed up for the timing light test, won't make that much of a diff at this point.

Write down a list of things to check/adjust, then go out there and as you complete each task write down the results and any changes. It can be easy to forget stuff when your under the hood, plus this gives you notes to compare to later for fine-tuning.

Above all, remember it's just a car.

If you have truly exhausted all of your resources, then maybe it's time for some unfree labor from your local mechanic. If you do end up going this route, it happens to all of us at some point, try to watch over his shoulder, or at least get a detailed description of what he did and why. Good luck with this, once it's sorted out and you're driving the car again all of the headache fades away pretty damn fast

 

[rbohm]

8) the first thing in looking fo rthe timing marks is to make sure the pulley is clean otherwise you will miss the mark(dont ask how i know ). second, the mark on the timing cover are easy to spot, but again they need to be clean to read the marks on it. after you have cleaned the pulley and found the timing mark on it, use a little dab of white paint to color the groove so you can see the mark when the engine is running.

 

[Lazy JW]

I agree with 66Fastback200, you need to verify initial timing. I have used the static timing method on my VW's for many years with good success. I would also verify proper timing mark orientation by using the physical stop method. You have a fundamental problem somewhere, and it CAN be fixed. Just hang in there, be patient, and you will find it. Good luck
Joe

 

[Anonymous]

I might have had the sequence backwards. The lamp may actually light when the points are closed, and lamp goes out when points open.

 

[Lazy JW]

I might have had the sequence backwards. The lamp may actually light when the points are closed, and lamp goes out when points open.

Nope. You were right the first time.
Joe

 

[godheadcustoms]

Above all, remember it's just a car.

I hope that didn't come across wrong. What I meant was it's only a car, and that if you persevere, the problem can be conquered. You don't have to worry if you hurt it's feelings or what you said that caused your car to run off into another room, crying...Pure,unemotional mechanics :roll: I do this everyday for a living, where NOTHING is ever as easy as it should be, or as quick as you expect, but hang in there- it will get fixed!

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think it's a timing issue. If the engine will start and run the timing is close enough to keep it running. The fact that cfmustang has to keep his foot on the throttle to keep it running and that it dies when the choke opens tells me that it's a vacuum leak.

Double check all your vacuum connections and hoses. Check that the carb is not leaking around its base. Since it's a Weber on a 200, I presume you are using some sort of adapter. Make sure that each piece has a properly fitting gasket and that its all tightly bolted together.

After you do that, report back with your results and we'll go from there. Above all else, don't give up and sell it in frustration. On Sunday I bought a race car from a guy whose been trying to get the engine to run right since March. He finally gave up and sold it cheap. When I got to his house it would barely run, and didn't have enough power to drive up onto my trailer - three guys pushing and his wife steering is how we got it up there.

Anyway, I got it home Sunday afternoon and opened the hood just to sort of have a look around. That's when I noticed that the plug wires went 1-4-2-3...how it ever ran that way I don't know, but when I rearranged them properly it fired right off and ran perfectly... :roll:

The lesson for you is that your car is just a machine that will respond to proper work. You'd feel really stupid if you sold it cheap and then heard from the buyer that it ran perfectly after he tightened down the carb... :roll:

PS - In rereading my post it sounds kind of like I'm lecturing you, cfmustang, but I don't mean it that way. Cars car be very frustrating, but I don't want you to give up in frustration. Because if you do, chances are good that you'll avoid working on cars for many years, and that would be a real shame!

 

[cfmustang]

I checked for vacuum leaks back in June when I was trying to fix the problem of it stalling when in gear with the brake on and didn't find any, but I will try again this evening when I get home from work.

Thanks!
Chris

 

[pedal2themetal45]

HAY YA CFMUSTANG
I think everyone is missing the boat (to speek of)
I don't think your adjusting the right screw for idle. you said you turned the fast idle screw all the way in and it won't idle ??? on most carbs the fast idle screw is a nonfunktioning item after the choke shuts off.. It should be idleing 900 miles an hour with the idle screw all the way in..... Now I'm not real fermailer with the carb your talking about but usely theirs 3 screws to mess with, one for fast idle (around the choke cam), one for normal idle (when the choke comes off, down by where the linkage is attached), and one for air/fuel mixture (in the base plate of the carb)..
Now which one are you turning???? :roll:
Tim

 

[cfmustang]

Woo-hooo!

Sorry about the excitment, I made major progress tonight!

Things started off bad with a dead battery, but after I threw the charger on it for a few minutes I got it started. I proceeded to spray everywhere I could think of with carb cleaner and didn't seem to find a leak. To be honest, the cam is so lumpy it is kind of hard to tell anyways.

Well, as I was standing there quite frustrated I noticed a screw in the front of the carb that I may have messed with way back when this started. Now, as for the adjustmenting screws, according to everything I can find about the 32/36 there are only two. An idle speed screw and idle mixture screw. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what this screw is (the exploded diagram of the carb is impossible to understand) but it was tightened all the way. I loosened it up a bit and the idle smoothed out. After playing with it a bit more, I found a sweet spot and was finally to disengage the choke and keep it running. It was getting too late and it isn't perfect, but I think now I can take the idle and mixture back to factory specs tomorrow and maybe try setting the timeing this weekend.

Does anybody that knows this carb know what this screw may be? It is on the electric choke side (front) of the carb and is larger than the adjectment screws. From the diagram, it looks like the jet holder for the Primary Idle jet. Would loosening this help idle?

I'll try and get a picture of it tomorrow after work...


Thanks for all the help and encouragement guys!
Chris[/b]

 

[cfmustang]

more info:

After looking at the carb again this morning and looking at the Weber Owners Workshop Manual, it does appear to have been the Pirmary Idle Jet holder screw.

Then, I found this in the WEBER CARBURETOR TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE:

"Clean idle circuit:
Locate and remove idle circuit jet holder from the carburetor. Remove jet holder, holdup to light and look for
roundness of cavity. Remove idle mixture adjustment screw from carburetor, blow clean compressed air
through the two open passages, and replace the jet in the jet holder and the mixture adjustment screw into
the carburetor. Do not over-tighten. Basic mixture adjustment screw setting is two and a half to three turns
out."

Like I said, this screw was turned all the way in (I think by me a right when all the trouble started... ).

Anyways, thanks again for the encouragment guys, after spending over 3 grande on the total engine rebuild this Spring and still not being able to drive the car, I really was frustrated to the point of giving up.

Chris

 

[pedal2themetal45]

HI YA
Glad you figgered it out
I thought you might have been missing a screw adjustment.
with out a pic I'm not sure what it is for, if it is in the base plate of the carb its a mixture screw if not it most likely is the idle screw. Being you said it was screwed all the way in and it would run I'm thinking it was the mixture screw as with it screwed all the way in you wouldn't have any idle mixture.
tim

 

[cfmustang]

Pedel,

It is not at the base, but toward the top: above and to the left of the accellerator pump. The picture I post tonight will show this.

What made it difficult is all the documentation I could find from Weber or elsewhere on the net only list two adjustment screws (near the base like you mentioned): The idle speed and idle mixture. The screw I turned appears to be the idle jet holder screw (the screw that holds in the idle jet on the side of the carb). Nowhere (but the blurb I found on the net and quoted) is it mentioned that this screw should be adjusted for tuning the carb.

It was a real head-scratcher. I may put this info in its own post in case anyone else with a Weber runs into similar idleing problems...

 

[cfmustang]

Here is a pic of my 32/36 from the front. The red arrow is pointing to the screw I turned (Idle Jet holder screw?). The yellow screw is the Lean Idle mixture screw and the light blue is the Idle Speed screw.

Is this in fact the Idle Jet holder?

 

[pedal2themetal45]

Good morning cfmustang
HUMM The idle jet holder screw (red) I don't think is supost to be adjustable??
When you backed it out is it lose or does it steal have tension on it? If it moves freely its not supost to be adjusted it well vibrate out and get lost.
The blue arrow looks like its pointing to one of the screws that holds the choke together, but I under stand what you mean their..
The lean idle mixture screw (yellow) to me doesn't look like its out far enought? The instructions give you figgers just to get it running for most applacaion.. for most real world applacations you well need to turn it out more than called for in the instruction to get a car to run..
if the idle jet holder screw is lose and turns freely I would screw it back in tight and screw the mixture screw out more and see if that cures the prob. I think the reason it ran better is because with the jet holder screw backed out a little it was letting more air in past the screw threads
Just for your info you well notice that the idle speed screw and the mixture screw have a spring on them (or are tight and hard to turn) that is so the won't back out when losened the spring keeps tension on them.
GOOD LUCK
let us know how it goes
Tim