Ford inlines don't keep cool

are you relying on 40 year old gauges for these readings? where is your sender located?

I put my new electric autometer sender in the old temp sender hole in the block....and it reads LOW it is reading the water temp in the block and not the head where it is warmer I konw this but I am fine with it (planning on moving it)

I would install a good quality aftermarket gauge (electric or mechanical) in the head (hopefully close to the t-stat) and see what readings you are seeing. it could very well be your old gauge is reading high (very easy for an electric to do if there is a bad connection as it will raise the resistance) also if it is not boiling over I would not worry about it. I heard that the pontiac big blocks run hot (like 220) but that is just normal for them. if you are not boiling over or pinging I would not worry about it.
 
chazthephoenix":386jz4bo said:
remember, you arent supposed to fill the radiator all the way up....maybe you just have too much fluid...

your statement of a 200 not being able to keep cool is just a problem you are having that IS fixable.

I didn't know that you wern't supposed to fill it up, how much should be in there? Also I was kinda joking about inlines not keeping cool, I used that heading to attract more attention to the post :D .

I'm using a brand new electrical gauge via the port in the back of the head. I have a mechanical gauge that i've been meaning to swap in just cause I have not much faith in electric ones staying accurate. I'm pretty sure it's reading correctly for now as I can see the temp go down a little bit once it hits the temp of the thermostat. I ordered a six blade fan and I'm going to take a closer look at my carb, I'll report back what I find out.
 
You fill to about an inch down from the cap flange. I stick my first finger in there with the joint on the cap flange and its tip should just touch the coolant surface.
 
I used a 5 blade fan from a Maverick that had a 250 and A/C. I had to trim the battery holder but it clears the radiator hoses in my '66 Mustang. I used to see the temp guage climbing in hot weather in traffic but its rock steady now. That Maverick fan sure moves some air!
 
Creating a lower pressure under the car will help with the flow of air over the radiator. This can be done by lowering the car or just by installing a chin spoiler on the front valance.

Just FYI... It is a common misconception that a lower temperature t-stat will lower engine temps. It is in fact the other way around. If you are consistantly running hot then you want to go UP in temperature with your t-stat. Yes the engine will run at a higher temp but it will do so consistantly. The T-stat is basically a heat sensitive switch. When it gets hot enough it opens and lets hot coolant past it into the radiator. It shuts off after cooler coolant reaches it. This shuts off the flow of coolant and allows the radiator to cool the hot coolant.

If this thermostatic switch, or t-stat, is not there or open all the time then the coolant will get heat soaked. The coolant just doesn't have enough time in the radiator to cool significantly before reentering the engine.

This is the voice of experience. I was having a chronic overheating problem with another older car and went to investigate it. I found that the previous owner did not have a t-stat installed at all. I put one in and that was the end of the overheating problem.

If you are convinced then go to the next post.... Still not convinced? Read on :D

Think of it this way. My other car with no t-stat was like an engine with a low temp t-stat that has been opened and cannot shut off due to the high temps. The radiator does not have enough time to do it's job and the system goes into thermal runaway.
When I installed a higher temp t-stat, or just installed one :roll: , the radiator now has time to radiate the heat form the hot coolant and the system is under thermal control.

I am an open minded person and will not take any comments about this post personally. If you feel I have made a gross error then I would be happy to discuss it in the hopes of either learning more or helping to spread my knowledge, limited as it is. :LOL:
 
Bruzer66":33eduuob said:
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Just FYI... It is a common misconception that a lower temperature t-stat will lower engine temps. It is in fact the other way around. If you are consistantly running hot then you want to go UP in temperature with your t-stat.

I completley agree with you, I was actually looking for a 206 themostat that checker used to carry when I bought the 190 that is in it. It seems that if I could keep it constant at 210 I would be happy.

Quick update, last night I swaped to a mech. gauge and it reads the same. I also let some coolent out of the radiator, to keep it at the proper level and made some adjustments to my throttle linkage(unrelated to the cooling problem). It already seems to be doing better, but I won't know for sure untill the real heat turns on later today.
 
Are your running a coolant overflow container?
If so, then fill the radiator full. I interpreted one of your comments to mean that you had an overflow container. In no overflow tank, then fill radiator full and let it find it’s equilibrium or leave it an inch or so low as mentioned above.

Once the thermostat is open, it has little to do with how much time the coolant spends in the radiator. In an engine that is running hot, the thermostat spends most of its time fully open. In an engine that does not have excess cooling capacity, the thermostat only regulates coolant circulation for a short time. If the cooling system can expel the heat into the air sufficiently, then the thermostat will regulate the coolant flow into the radiator. A lower thermostat rating on a cooling system that is overheating does nothing but open the valve sooner. It won’t make a system operate at that temperature. A higher rating on the thermostat will increase the threshold temp at which that thermostat is fully open. On a car that is overheating, it just lengthens the amount of time required before that thermostat is fully open. So once the operating temp of the system exceeds the rating of thermostat, a 160* vs a 200* operate the same in those temperatures above the thermostat temp rating and do nothing to lower the system temperature.

Two of the things that govern the rate of heat transfer is the flow rate and temperature differential. The analogy for the temperature differential is pressure on a water line or voltage on an electric circuit. The higher the differential, or pressure difference, the more “forceâ€￾ there is trying to move heat from one side of the metal to the other side. Similarly in electric circuits, you can push more current through a wire if you increase the voltage differential. So at a higher system temperature, you can actually drive more heat off through the radiator. So in the case of a system operating at a higher temperature because it has a higher thermostat rating, the system is able to carry and expel more heat at the same flow rates because it has a higher temperature difference between the engine block and the coolant, the coolant and the radiator skin and the radiator and the air flowing through the radiator.

The flow rate also increases the rate of heat transfer. A cooling system functions primarily by transporting the heat via the mass of the fluid from one place to another. Higher flow rates increase the efficiency of the heat transfer by removing the film along the tubes of the radiator and keeping them cleaner. If you slow the circulation rate down in the radiator, then the coolant has more time to reach a lower temperature. However, the temperature differential is decreased and the rate of heat transfer decreases as a result. And while the fluid at the radiator is cooling down under this low circulation rate, the fluid at the block has more time to reach a higher temperature. So slow circulation rates don’t gain you better cooling.

Intuitively, we would probably all agree that the more air you can get passing through the radiator, the cooler the engine will run. So why would you think that less coolant into the radiator would increase cooling. The air side and the coolant side of the radiator are governed by the same laws of physics.
Increasing the coolant flow rate will increase the amount of heat flowing through the radiator. As a result, it will have a higher temperature and maintain a higher temperature difference between the air and the coolant, thus increasing the rate of heat transfer.

Doug
 
8) while 230 is a little high, it isnt actually overheating yet. however if you see 230 for awhile, and then the temp suddenly drops down to 180 or so, SHUT THAT MOTOR DOWN as you have run very low on coolant. as for your problem, i would run a 3 core rad, and a 180 tstat, along with a large 6+ blade fan, or even a high flow electric fan, like one form a taurus.

one thing to remember that just using a cooler opening tstat doesnt mean the engine is going to run cooler. the engine will run where it is designed to run at, barring any problems. if the cooling system is designed to run at 195 degrees and you put in a 180 stat, the engine will still run at 195 degrees. if the engine is designed to run at 160 degrees and you install a 195 stat, it will run at 195 degree because that is where the stat allows coolant flow through the rad.
 
Cooling system diagnosis are the most difficult to pinpoint.

Working in dealerships for 35 years I believe I have seen it all.

For example a water pump impeller just loose & spinning on the water pump shaft, that was a doozy.

If your engine overheats at idle look for lack of air flow through the core, feel the complete surface of the core for cooler spots which is normally blockage.

Overheating or running hot at highway speeds is probably a clogged radiator core, & of maybe a lower radiator hose collapsing.

If you have a large enough radiator, such as a 3 row & proper air flow, the thermostat will determine the operating temperature of the engine, if a 180 thermostat will not keep the temperature @ 180 you don't have enough radiator & or air flow.

Another X-factor is core shift & a thin cylinder wall which will make the temperature run higher than thermostat rating.

Since I upped my compression to 10-1, I am in the process of installing a 3 row radiator to keep the engine at thermostat rating.

Keep cool summer is coming. William
 
i keep mentoning imprper tightness of the belt. They dont always squeal. or even the pulley has a shine and is slipping

trust me

check it
 
Bruzer66":37d4oxvc said:
Just FYI... It is a common misconception that a lower temperature t-stat will lower engine temps. It is in fact the other way around...

My observations on numerous older vehicles supports the "common misconception". Having been born on the wrong side of the tracks I have had the pleasure of "making do" with whatever was available for most of my mis-spent life. This means, among other things, driving old junkers. Trucks, tractors, and cars. I have had abundant opportunities to try my hand at keeping them from overheating in hay fields, etc.

In EVERY case thus far, when faced with an overheated truck in the hay field, whatever, removing the thermostat has helped. There is some evidence that this won't work at high (racing) rpm's, but I don't race.

As William stated, if your temperature exceeds your thermostat rating, you are either putting too much heat in or don't have enough capacity to get rid of it. Playing games with improper thermostats is risky.
Joe

P.S. Tighten the fan belt
 
Removing the thermostat gets back to increasing the circulation rate of the coolant by removing a restriction in the system. The water pump is a centrifugal pump and a poorly designed one at that. Imposing a little back pressure on the pump via a restriction will affect the discharge volume of the pump. The typical automotive water pump has a great deal of clearance around its impellar and additional backpressure on the pump will just increase the slippage / shearing of fluid in the clearance between the impeller and the pump housing.
Doug
 
The increased internal pressure created by the thermostat restriction helps prevent formation of micro-bubbles caused by vaporizing coolant. These little bubbles don't transfer heat efficiently, causing cooling problems.

It's a bigger problem on some engines than others, the 351C coming to mind. There is a restrictor plate in the water outlet wich, if removed, causes overheating. Actually, running a 351C without a t-stat will cause overheating.

I don't think the 200 has the same issues, though. As I've said many times before, the stock system works pretty well. The radiator core is essentially the same one that is used on all the 289 variants, from the 200 hp C-code to the 271 hp K-code. If it can remove the heat from those higher power engines, it will easily remove the heat from a 100 hp T-code.

We always see issues with rust, corrosion, airflow, etc which impact cooling. This is the crud that came out of one of the blocks I was working on, and it's pretty typical of a 40 year old engine.

blockdebris_small.jpg


One other way to add cooling capacity to the engine is to add auxiliary coolers. Adding an external cooler to remove the transmission from the radiator's cooling requirement and adding an external engine oil cooler will help remove heat, leaving the radiator less work to do.
 
The increased internal pressure created by the thermostat restriction helps prevent formation of micro-bubbles caused by vaporizing coolant. These little bubbles don't transfer heat efficiently, causing cooling problems.

This statement carries alot of weight and most don't get it. The added pressure inside of the water jackets(before the thermostat) raises the boiling point higher and helps. I have always ran some kind of restrictor even if I don't run a thermostat. I prefer a thermostat to keep the engine temp fairly consistant but have ran a restrictor on some applications. If you don't think there is anything to consider here just put an old mech pressure guage where the water temp guage goes and check the pressure with and without the thermostat open. You might be supprised at how much pressure these pumps put out. Most centrifigal pumps are designed to operate with a little backpressure. They are designed to push not pull. If the radiator is not flowing well it will also tend to cavitate.

If there aren't any tuning issues, then the stock cooling system in good condition should be enough.
 
You can achieve the same effect with better results by raising the system pressure of the whole system, not just at the block as you would by using a restrictor. The way this is accomplished is by using a radiator cap that has a higher rating. A few pounds should do the trick if the system can hold it without leaking. The limiting factors are the ability of the hoses, pump seals, and an old and weakened radiator to contain the pressure. A higher radiator cap pressure imposes a higher pressure on both the inlet and outlet of the water pump. Since the pressure is applied to both sides of the pump, the flow rate of the pump is not reduced. Using a higher capacity pump alone will not raise the total system pressure because the same radiator cap will vent the excess pressure. Also if the pressure increase is caused by higher flow rate and increased friction alone, the benefit dissipates as you move through the system and more of the friction induced pressure is behind you. By raising the boiling point through increased system pressure, the water has the ability to be at a higher temperature without boiling at the radiator. This would increase the temperature differential and increase the heat transfer.

Although raising the pressure at the engine block would be beneficial, a restrictor orifice or relying on the friction of the thermostat may not be the best method to accomplish this. The thermostat is not purposely designed to create back pressure to prevent cavitation. The pressure is always lower on the downstream side of the orifice or thermostat. This pressure reduction may or may not be sufficient enough to allow the water to boil. Since the restrictor slowed down the flow rate in the block, the water temperature is now hotter coming from the block. The tendency to boil on the downstream side of the thermostat would be greater with higher tempreatures and smaller restrictors that cause a larger difference in pressure across the restrictor orifice . Raising the pressure through the use of a restrictor will in fact reduce the water flow not only in the block but at the radiator.

The restrictor plates in the cooling systems date back to 50’s & 60’s when hot rodders had cooling problems in their quest for more horsepower. They were taking stock components and modifying them or using a variety of parts that were never designed to be run as a unit. With a stock cooling system, you are going to impose greater heat loads on the system as the modified engine’s horsepower increases. So as a result of the higher horsepower loads, more heat is dumped into the cooling system and it its operating that much closer to the boiling point. Couple that with the fact that most performance engines also operate at higher engine rpm’s, and you have a hotter fluid now running thru a pump that was not designed to operate at that temperature or rpm. The result could be the cavitation ya’ll mention. Compounding the problem is they typically used an undersized radiator from a smaller car. In addition, may rods have parts of the engines exposed and do not have ducted airflow through the radiator.

I’ve talked to an old racer that got better cooling in high rpm big blocks by cutting off every other impeller blade. The thought was that the coolant was moving too fast through the radiator. He may not have been reducing flow rate that much because the stock pump was cavitating and was not circulating much anyway. His modification changed the performance of the pump and eliminated the cavitation. Keep in mind that the pump is also spinning much faster while racing than a stock pump normally does and airflow through the radiator. On a related note, the Corvette has a lower flow pump in order to keep it from cavitating at higher rpm’s. A side benefit of the lower flow pump is a few more horsepower at higher rpm’s.

This website has some good info on restrictor plates and high flow pumps.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_t ... Tips_3.htm

Sorry for the length, but heat transfer and cavitation is a special interest of mine.
Doug
 
Good points, Doug, and a good tech site. In my experience, Stewart T-stats have been the best (along with the no longer available Robertshaw). The restrictor orifice is just a method of moving the internal pressure up without raising system pressure too high. A stock radiator on a Ford is only capable of reliably handling so much pressure, and an extremely high pressure cap was probably considered dangerous, so the restrictor orifice was likely the easiest way to fix that and maintain pressure in the 351C block.

Cavitation is an interesting problem. I've often wondered if we couldn't make the pump more efficient by adding a plate to seal the back of the impeller like the ones that Flowcooler adds?

Another interesting problem is the fact that #1 and #2 always run significantly cooler than the other cylinders, leading to increased wear. I've wondered about rerouting some of the coolant externally to fix that.

Still, most problems are just plain, 'ol, crud in the block and radiator. :(
 
I've seen some guys do those two things on some Chevies. Some have riveted a backing plate onto the blades of the open pump impellers. They then take care to set the clearance tighter between the blade and pump housing. Some guys have also plumbed up an external cooling system in order to better distribute the coolant to the hot cylinders of their big blocks. Seems like a lot of work. I know in my oilfield plumbing experience, it is hard to balance flow between lines / vessels despite your best efforts to make them identical. The fluid has a mind of its own unless you start choking one line or the other.
Doug
 
I think im going to have to read this thread a few more times to grasp all the information.

The car has been running a lot cooler since I adjusted some things on my carb and let some coolent out of the radiator. It still runs hotter than I would prefer but it is maintaining itself and only got close to 230 once in the last few days where as before it would be hitting that temp by the time I got home from work(a 20 mile drive).

I'm going to switch down to a 180 thermostat once I get the six blade installed and if it holds it's temp at 180, I may try the 160.

So for now I'm going to move on to my next problem i'm haveing with oil preasure which will be a new thread. Thanks for all your insite and help with this problem.
 
Another interesting problem is the fact that #1 and #2 always run significantly cooler than the other cylinders, leading to increased wear. I've wondered about rerouting some of the coolant externally to fix that.


I have seen other engines like Hudson and Toyota solve these issues. It usualy involves a seperate passage with holes that distribute the water more evenly.
 
Before you get too convinced that your engine is overheating, get a second opinion - a second gauge.

Plus, I never understood why Ford put the temp sending unit at the back of the block, effectively in the middle of the engine's coolant flow path - it sure seems like it could show a normal temp while the head is busy overheating like mad. :roll:

I added a new temp gauge with its sensor in the coolant line going to the heater, straight out of the head behind the thermostat. Effectively the same place as on a modern engine, it shows the temp of the coolant hitting the thermostat.

What's interesting is the stock gauge fluctuates more than the new one, particularly when starting a heat-soaked engine.
 
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