My Budget 250 build

lavron

Well-known member
chad":21y2c92g said:

They are Motorcraft 740, 5740, I have a 4-page document like below and a little pdf manual someplace.

ba090f546407db245dd3b44b8efda933.jpg


Just not a lot of information out on the web, you can see the stuff like the jets in the image above but not sure what fits it, if there are even any available, I am assuming they are all three jetted the same but may need to check that (plus I have two extra carbs I can steal parts off of if needed).

See Ya,
Mike
 

lavron

Well-known member
Here are a couple of the pictures from the service manual/bulletin (?), it does show what a lot of the ports are, I am guessing a large number of them can be blocked off?

9aca79f2464c3f0adc942537981c0a8d.jpg

91e5647be4e1f7e09d2b16bb87268ad2.jpg


Would be nice to know if I could use stuff like the port to raise idle when the A/C is on, etc.

See Ya,
Mike
 

xctasy

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Carter stopped making carbs in 1985 due to ACF taking an EPA hit at its plant. It sold its rights to Weber and Edelbrock corp, with Holley taking over US production.

This 2 barrel progressive carb has names bandied about for it. Most are wrong.

This WAS originally Ford of Europe Escort MarK III Weber 32DFT single 2-BBL carb

It was built under license by Carter and then Holley.

Names used , weather by right, sic, are:-

Weber 32DFT
Weber 32DFTA
Holley Weber,
Carter Weber,
Motorcraft 5740,
Motorcraft 740


It is not, nor ever has been a Holley Weber, but Holley stepped in the gap for Carter, and its owned and carries an OEM #9XXX reference for it, and it has become one (a Holley Weber) in generic Ford and Motorcraft description.

Eg

1. Remanufactured Holley Weber Motorcraft 2 Barrel Carburetor # 9901
Which is Fords Motorcraft 21241

2. Motorcraft Weber Holley 740 2-Barrel Carburetor # 9744 1983-1985 Ford Escort.
3. Holley Model H2-740 2BBL Carburetor E4GE AAA, 1984-1986 Ford Escort 1.6L 4 Cyl.
4. Holley-Weber Carburetor Number: 5740, E3EE-A1A, B1A, C1A, D1A, E1A, E2A, F1A, G1A, G1B, J1A, J2A, K1A, N1A, P1A, E3GE-C1A, D1A, F1A, H1A, J1A, K1B, L1A, M1A, N1A, P1A, R1A, S1A, U1A
5. Walker Products "Hitachi" 2BBL, 740 Carburetor Tune Up Kit


1981-82 All Trans 98"-1.6 L. Eng Escort 740 Motorcraft 21240
1983 A/T 98"-1.6 L. Eng Escort 740 Motorcraft 21248
1983 M/T 98"-1.6 L. Eng Escort 740 Motorcraft 21246
1984-86 A/T 98"-1.6 L. Eng Escort 740 Motorcraft 21252
1984-86 M/T 98"-1.6 L. Eng Escort 740 Motorcraft 21250
1985-85 All Trans 116"-1.9 L. Eng Escort 740 Motorcraft 21254

Fords E3EE-A1A,E4GE AAA reference numbers exist. This is important because theCalibration Reference of the carb is defined by Ford, its

jets,
well tubes,
air correctors,
idle stop solenoid,
Choke Pulldown parts,
A/C or Power Steering Throttle kicker


Its not a Holley carb as such, but since Holley took over supply in 1982 when the writing was on the wall for Carter ACF, it is what it is.


For Non OEM carb aftermarket support, the only Holley Weber is the first on this list below, the Holley G180/Holley 5200 Series, itself a licensed copy and Weber DFT/DGAS variant.

holleycarbs_44chronicles.jpg



Eliminate all these Holley Part Number choices

Any why, here's the info to back it all up:-


44_carbie_chronicals_001.jpg

44_carbie_chronicals_002-025.jpg

44_carbie_chronicals_0026-044b.jpg


eliminate these too

Here is a Missing in Action Holley Weber 52xx to 65xx List and Makers PN from 1973 until Ford axed the carb in 1983 for the single barrel.

There is an on line list of the 19 (nineteen) Holley Weber carbs in the 445 carb list below,
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/images/HolleyCarb.html

These are appended with the Dave Emanual even more extensive list of 8 (eight) other Holley Webers in Super Tuning and Modifying Holley Carburetors.


MissinginActionHolleyWeber52xxto65xxListandMakersPN.jpg



There are seven extras just from and afternoon of FEP internet trawling.

Every Holley Weber on the net seams to have a different list number and part number, which is probably as it should be, since the published Holley lists are for carb kits where as real Holley Weber's in service are factory list carbs with a automakers unique production part number
 

xctasy

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lavron":3n9fmydg said:
Here are a couple of the pictures from the service manual/bulletin (?), it does show what a lot of the ports are, I am guessing a large number of them can be blocked off?

Would be nice to know if I could use stuff like the port to raise idle when the A/C is on, etc.

See Ya,
Mike


No, nothing needs blocked off.

1.jets,
2.well tubes,
3.air correctors,
4.idle stop solenoid,
5.Choke Pulldown parts,
6.A/C or Power Steering Throttle kicker, they can all stay the same.


4, 5 and 6 are very important because even with only 83 cubic inches of three two cylinder engines sucking away at idle, anti -dieseling, a fast choke release and some way of spiking the idle under alternator, electric fan load is all good. The outer carbs can perhaps have 4, the idle stop solenoid , 5, the choke pulldown configuration and 6 the a/c kicker, all run (ie. synchronized) off the center carb but its all good stuff.


Stovebolt got all that dual and triple carb stuff sorted out. To a degree, you'll still be off the ideal sizes because they are just 70 hp each carbs, and due to other stuff, it wont ever be a 210 hp engine.
See this from carbking
Thu Mar 29 2012 03:32 AM
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/839500/2.html":3n9fmydg said:
And just to expand slightly on a comment by Jerry (HRL): we find that we virtually ALWAYS have to RICHEN the jets when going to multiple carbs. This is because of the reduced air velocity in the carbs. The novice will not account for the action of the power valve (which will need adjustment), and mistakenly thinks the carbs are too rich.

Jon.

and the power Valve problem
Jerry A
Tue Sep 19 2006 11:37 PM
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=65861":3n9fmydg said:
This thing seems awfully rich. I ran the air/fuel screw in until the engine stumbled and then back out until it stumbled again. There was very little difference in the vacuum reading off the intake. In fact, it was only about an inch. I currently have both carbs set for the max vacuum which is about mid point. Like I said, she sure smells rich.

What are your thoughts?


Generally, and especially with any USA market carb, rPower Valves are for 1, 2 or 4bbl engines which have


1. a reasonable amount of cubic inches of engine ( 83 cubes per 2-bbl carb is still quite small)

2. , that aren't independent runner.

When you do the 4bbl NASCAR 358 V8 or one 2bbl Esslinger 152/140 (2500/2300) 4cylinder thing, the power valve channel restrictions need to become a smaller percentage of the total fuel jetting. NASCAR before 2013 used them, but they were quite small. Esslinger blanks them off.


For you Lavron, the power valve situation, its actually even worse.

A 6 bbl Carter Weber install of a 6 cylinder engine is 3bbls serving six cylinders at cruise or mild throttle, then almost Independ runner at wide open throttle, so the Power Valve is best removed and blanked off, or at least downgraded or the crack open vacuum should be changed so it never operates.

Power valves are going to open and deluge the engine, and jetting then becomes a problem because something like 25% of the richness will be coming from an open power valve. Normally, a Power Valve is 8 steps rich on a 2 or 4bbl standard jetting. With the vacuum you have, it'll be way richer than that.


Heads up. When Tom Langdon was doing it, lots of people started two or three 2-bbl Carter Weber sixes, they like 85 to 170 dollar spend in carbs to get started, but few did it.


ElPlymino is a great Mopar guy, and was on the Slant six forum as well as a devout HAMBer and jalopyjournal'er.

But nothing got done because life is somewhat hard to predict. Did you predict the Electron results, and do you know the future of Indonesia? Anything can happen...


stovebolt_triple_slant_225_cw_6875.jpg



stovebolt_triple_slant_225_cw_106234341.jpg


There is expertise, but most US guys don't understand the vacuum signal, duty cycle and power valve needs on triple Weber installs.

"Twin Deuce" 2-bbls, its easy.


stovebolt_dual_cw_DSC_0772.jpg



stovebolt_dual_cw_DSC_0075.jpg



On your 250, Triple Weber's need well over 7.95 square inches of throttle area just to make 185 hp at 4200 rpm.

At the moment, and always, when you've only got 3.54 sq inches of wide open throttle carb area, it'll absolutely need a locked off Power Valve and probably some upsized primary and secondary jets.

The well tubes can do the total control and trim of your wide open throttle low and mid and high speed jetting.
 

chad

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Ahhh, yes. I think I remember us saying itsa '80s 1.6 / 1.9 Escort (Lynx) carb.
Thank you both...
 

xctasy

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See https://p15-d24.com/topic/42342-carterweber-jetting/

Pierce Manifolds http://www.piercemanifolds.com They have a good stock of parts and are very helpful;



Any two 32/34 DFT Webers for a 235 Blue Flame Six will sit in this jetting range.

Primary Idle Jet - 50
Primary Air Corrector - 160
Primary Emulsion Tube - F22
Primary Main Jet - .115
Secondary Air Corrector - 170
Secondary Emulsion Tube - F25
Secondary Main Jet - .105
Secondary Idle Jet - 60


IMG_9656.JPG.b4a3970ffed4d359be3ede386ae9b97a.JPG



Carter/Weber, Weber 32DFT, Motorcraft 740, Motorcraft 5740, whichever other name they've been made under, they will vary. The 230 Dodge Coronet Flattie has these, which had jetting which was completely off from what should come from the "factory" and they aren't matched at all. mrahc jet's were as follows:

Front Carb
Primary Idle Jet - 70 (Stock = 50)
Primary Air Correcter - 150 (Stock = 160)
Primary Emulsion Tube - X04 (Stock = X05 or F53)
Primary Main Jet - 15 (Not sure if this is shortened from 115?)(Stock = 105)
Secondary Air Correcter - 150 (Stock - 220)
Secondary Emulsion Tube - X04 (Stock = T02 or F22)
Secondary Main Jet - 120 (Stock = 95)
Secondary Idle Jet - 60 (Stock = 60)

Rear Carb
Primary Idle Jet - 65
Primary Air Correcter - 150
Primary Emulsion Tube - X05
Primary Main Jet - 15 (?)
Secondary Air Correcter - 175
Secondary Emulsion Tube - X04
Secondary Main Jet - 15 (?)
Secondary Idle Jet - 60

https://p15-d24.com/topic/14940-carter- ... tting-etc/


martybose
Zen Master, I breathe vintage mopar! 1947 Business Coupe.

Once I had the proper tool I pulled all of the jets. It's quite a collection, as there are 4 jets for each throttle bore (main jet, idle jet, air corrector jet and emulsion tube), and the primary and secondary don't have any in common. The real surprise was that the two carbs, which were purchased new as a pair, had slightly different air correction jets in the primary bores. All of the others were identical. They are:

part name Primary Secondary

main jet 105 100

idle jet 065 060

air corrector jet 150/155 250

emulsion tube F53 F22

Interestingly, the tables I have don't even list an F53 emulsion tube for Weber DFTA carbs (their designation for these) but they do list an F53 for a closely related different model.


In Europe, the Weber 32/34 DFT carburettor made in Italy to fit the Ford Fiesta XR2 1600 CVH up to 1986.

https://www.projectbobcat.com/guides/fo ... arburetors

It is supplied without the auto- choke bi-metal (also available with this fitted at £100.00 extra). You can use the old bi-metal if in good condition. This specification is not drilled for fuel return to tank so a T piece with restrictor is supplied for connection if required. The fuel filter angle is a little straighter so an alternative inlet pipe is also supplied if easier to fit.

Early (1983-86) Mk2 Fiesta XR2's were fitted with the twin choke Webber 32/34 DFT carb which is considered the 'better' carb to use on your CVH engined XR2. This carb was also fitted on the none injection Escort XR3. In 1986 the carb was replaced by the twin choke Weber 28/32 TDLM which produced less power.

As Standard the DFT carb was fitted with the following jets: Primary: 115 main, 50 idle, F30 emulsion, Secondary: 125 main, 60 idle, F30 emulsion

Jetting is original specification

Your OHV Pinto 1597 cc 1979-1980 USA Ford Fiesta had a Weber 32/34 DFTA too

Weber PN 18870.326
Venturi's 22 / 22
Pri/Sec Jet 100 / 105
Pri/Sec Air Correct Jet 250 / 250
Well Tubes (emulsion tubes in Euro-speak) F22 / F22
Pri/Sec idle jet 60 / 60

So its safe to say, you'll just be looking at Power valve circuit deactivation, because you can find everything else.
power_valves_18_15_ba090f546407db245dd3b44b8efda933.jpg



I do whatever anyone wants flow calculation wise, but its all academic as its the total square inches size of the venturi's over the cubic inch capacity of engine that's important when your in the one to two barrels per cylinder territory.

CFM forces people to talk air speed, and air speed is not what you need to make a bunch of Merry Men breath throw straws in a swamp.

At the 1.5" Hg rate,
The 32/34 DFT/DFT/ 740/5740 "Whatever Weber" air flow through two barrels is about 167 cfm at 1.5"Hg,
while the small 5210 2-bbl Chev Chevette 1.4/1.6 liter /Mopar VW 1.7 liter is 180 cfm,
the 5200/5210/6200/6520 Vega/Mopar 2.2K car, Pinto/Fox/Ranger, all about 195 to 227 cfm depending on primary venturi size, which varies from 23 to 26 mm.
 

chad

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"...Blue Flame Six..."
kouwell, the '50s vette engine (w/2
side draft YHs I love so much) from a truck...
Those carbs go inta boats too !
May B chebby had low hoods too?
 

lavron

Well-known member
xctasy":1czf3cui said:
No, nothing needs blocked off.

1.jets,
2.well tubes,
3.air correctors,
4.idle stop solenoid,
5.Choke Pulldown parts,
6.A/C or Power Steering Throttle kicker, they can all stay the same.


4, 5 and 6 are very important because even with only 83 cubic inches of three two cylinder engines sucking away at idle, anti -dieseling, a fast choke release and some way of spiking the idle under alternator, electric fan load is all good. The outer carbs can perhaps have 4, the idle stop solenoid , 5, the choke pulldown configuration and 6 the a/c kicker, all run (ie. synchronized) off the center carb but its all good stuff.

I can always count on you X :p my hope is we will see this actually work, I may not know what I am doing right now but with everyone's help I/we will figure it out hopefully.

I am pleased as punch with how the car runs with the single carb but I hope to make it better (and cooler) with the multi carb set up even if there is a steep learning curve for me :roll:

So in the future be prepared for some really bonehead questions :p And I do appreciate all the info you provided, I may still not know anything but I have a lot more information to maybe help.

See Ya,
Mike
 

xctasy

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You don't have to know everything. Just have a "Want to!"

It'll work just fine. Try it all first as it is, but with Items 4, 5 and 6 working off the center carb.


Base idle tuning you can do using the propane method that Ford used for the 1983-1985 4bbl 5.0 Capris and Mustangs. They used a four corner idle with all barrels partly open, and that gave them a great idle. The secondary's were vac operated. the Escort carb is a two bbl idle carb, so you will have a, ahem, six corner idle.


Item 7 Method


http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... ost1663147

JACook":25nrx0da said:
The propane enrichment can be done without any special tools, but I will say the tool makes things
a little easier. All you need is a way to repeatably supply a low flow of propane. When I first started
using the propane enrichment method, I modified a regular propane torch by removing the torch bit,
and attaching a hose.

I have altered the factory method just a bit though. Rather than inject the propane into the air cleaner,
I prefer to aim the hose down each individual throat, to make sure I'm getting the same reaction from
all of them. Then I work with progressively lower propane flow rates to fine tune the mixture setting,
while watching both engine RPM and manifold vacuum.

It takes a bit of practice to find the balance, but once you know what feels right, it's much quicker and
more accurate than just using the vacuum gauge.



I'm predicting that you might need a Syncrotest if the three primary barrels carbs don't flow the same rate at idle. On Andy Wood's killer 71 F150, he used a Tunnel Rammed Street/Strip riot built entirely at home in his driveway!
Unity MotorSports Garage: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEqgDk ... oWb0Sd9vYg


A SyncPro™ Carb Tuner should do the job. You'll have to test it 3 cylinder Suzuki GSX 750 style, first on the primaries, then the secondaries, then set the idle with propane.

SYNCHPRO_pv_opperation_large.jpg


Item 8 will be the 15,16,17 and 18 parts of the Power Valve.

I'm pretty sure you can lock off the power valve if its pig rich.


We will probably just need a way to find what its opening point is, and stop it opening.

Using a Mitiyvac, you can pump It' up to determine the vacuum when it opens. It will be quite low, most likely between 3.6 and 8.5" .


this is the process:-
http://www.opelgt.com/forums/aftermarket-down-draft-carbs/27946-38-weber-tuning.html

RallyBob:
Simple way to establish your power valve tuning. Get the engine running as well as possible, then measure the vacuum at idle. This means that your ignition timing and idle speed need to be correct for your specific combination.

Now, the stock power valves on a 32/36DG-series or 38 DG-series carb opens at about 14" of vacuum. If your engine idles at 15"-16" of vacuum or higher...leave the power valve alone!

If your engine idles at or below 14", you will need to modify the power valve. Cut ONLY enough coils so that the power valve opens 2" below your existing idle vacuum level. Example: Your big-cammed Opel idles at 9" of vacuum. Your power valve should open at 7" of vacuum. Using a vacuum gauge to test, cut the coils in small increments until that value is reached.

That's it.

This is the vacuum port to test the power valve 'cracking' point.

pv_opperation_large.jpg


From there, you can deactivate it to prevent a deluge of gasoline at idle or off idle. That. Mr Lavron, will be your only matter with tuning. Everything else will be Smooth Sailing.
 

xctasy

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Here are some European Fiesta XR2/Escort XR3 Weber 32/34 DFT pictures for future reference

1602, 1601,1600


32_34_dft_s_l1602.jpg



32_34_dft_s_l1601.jpg



32_34_dft_s_l1600.jpg


Here are some 32/34 DFT SA-1 pictures for future reference (30,31,32,34,35,36)

32_34_dft_photo30.jpg


32_34_dft_photo31.jpg


32_34_dft_photo32.jpg


32_34_dft_photo34.jpg


32_34_dft_photo35.jpg


32_34_dft_photo36.jpg
 

chad

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that yellow thing a 'meter stick' rather than a 'yard stick'?
:rolflmao:
 

lavron

Well-known member
xctasy":3d4zsnzc said:
Here are some European Fiesta XR2/Escort XR3 Weber 32/34 DFT pictures for future reference

Thanks for that, they certainly are really close and I am sure the internals are all the same, this has all been a big help for me understanding what I have and it looks like I can get the needed parts to re-jet etc. plus see what others are doing and find some good manuals if I need them :roll:

Slowed down a little on the project right now because everyone's focus has become deer hunting (maybe mine a little as well :p )

I did talk to my friend helping me on casting (or me helping him) and said he was going to try and talk to a couple of guys that are still sand casting for tips, he also gave me some guidance on building the flasks so I will be going on that soon.

See Ya,
Mike
 

xctasy

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Sounds like fun.The EGR ports can be blocked off, the Bowl Vents can be routed to a green purge valve, or perhaps blocked off. Sometimes EGRs lean off the mixture and bowl vents change the effective float level, but unless you've got problems with air fuel ratios, they are okay blocked off. The "740" is a lot less bitchy than the Holley Weber 52x0/62x0/65x0
 

lavron

Well-known member
xctasy":17avipxq said:
The "740" is a lot less bitchy than the Holley Weber 52x0/62x0/65x0

At least that is good news :p

I finally posted up a quick video of the intake pattern mounted and painted, it is basically finished as you will see in the video.

250 Custom Intake Pattern

I will keep chipping away at it.

See Ya,
Mike
 

lavron

Well-known member
I thought I would post this here, I talk about a little more than the motor but mostly you get to see it running again, always enjoyable for me🤪

Exercise time for the 250 and my current focus on my overall build

Getting closer to seeing the road and really seeing what this combo will do, not a race car but man this is a fun car, always hear where guys talk about the ease they have lighting the rear tires up, when the time comes I will show you, I know most regulars on here know all about it but think I might like to help convince those that lurk around and aren't sure they want to run a six or do the ordinary and stuff a V8 in there you are going to be missing out, I know this sounds odd to say, on the coolness of an I6, most people won't expect that when they look under the hood, it might not sound like a V8 running but mine sounds pretty good IMO, not an unpleasant tone at all.

See Ya,
Mike
 
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