Pertronix Ignitor in 200. Some questions first though!

[Anonymous]

I have been updating my engine bay lately and have been reading more and more about Pertronix Ignitor 1. I am still running points, in a 65 200 loadomatic distributor. I have some questions now though before I go forward with this:

1. Will it increase performace? Should I buy 8mm spark plug wires to replace my 7mm?

2. I shouldn't have to replace my coil right?

3. Do I have to get a new distributor cap?

Thanks!

Nick

 

[Anonymous]

I think it's a worthwhile upgrade if you aren't interested in going DSII or you want to keep a stock appearance. Remember a DSII (duraspark II) won't work correctly with your carb.

1. Will it increase performace? Should I buy 8mm spark plug wires to replace my 7mm?

Performance should increase, the engine will run smoother, you don't need 8mm wires, a good set of 7's should be fine.

2. I shouldn't have to replace my coil right?

A new high output coil will help.

3. Do I have to get a new distributor cap?

No, but I would buy a new stock replacement cap and rotor unless they are in really good shape.


I was running a ignitor II in a 66 200, and in a 65 240 before that (the same unit fits both). You will notice right away a smoother idle and probably easier starting. I like them because I hate adjusting points. If you're worried about reliability, keep your old points and condensor in a baggy in the glove box with a cheap screwdriver and pair of pliers. It's pretty easy to switch.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

Just as electra said. You won't feel much of a performance gain but it will smooth out your engine and you won't have to worry about points again.

I wasn't very careful with my wires inside the distributor and they wrapped around the rotor and destroyed my unit after about a month. I then upgraded to a Duraspark with an MSD and a two barrel that was a real performance gain.

Your coil, cap, rotor, and wires will be fine if they are fairly new and still in good shape. A higher output coil will give you a better spark and allow you to open the gap in your plugs to .045 to .055.

Have fun,

Bob

 

[CobraSix]

Pretty much what the other guys said.

1) smoother idle
2) Easier starts
3) better mileage

Upgrading the coil is NOT required. It will help gain a little power and more mileage from the engine.

Like Bob said, make sure you only leave enough wires in the actual distributor to reach the electronics. Mine had an adjustable sleeve that fit where there original wires were, so it kept the wires in place after I set them.

Slade

 

[ludwig]

Make sure you leave a little slack so that when the spark advance pulls, it doesn't pull the wires out.
You will notice that you have to back the idle off since you get much more thorough combustion. I am very happy with mine.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back Nick And all:

I just wanted to clarify a few answers to your questions.

Q- Will it increase performace? A- It depends on the condition of the points and ignition system it is replacing. IF your points are old, cap and rotor worn, wires cracked and leaking and plugs that are worn, you will likely see a nice performance and mileage improvement. The Petronix unit is designed to be a "stand alone" replacement for the points. It will send a stronger, more accurate spark to the plugs. IT will NOT fix an old, cap and rotor, plug wires or plugs that are worn. To get the most out of the upgrade all parts should be in tip-top shape. Spark plugs can be regapped to .045" to take advantage of the stronger spark.

Q-Should I buy 8mm spark plug wires to replace my 7mm? A-IF your stock OEM plug wires are in good shape new wires are not necessary. There are two parts to defining "Good Shape". First is conductivity, and the second is insulation, or keeping the charge contained. A third might be radio interference supression. Test your wires conductivity with a meter for any resistance. A simple test to check for leaks is, on a dark night, wipe the wires down with window washing fluid, start the engine and watch for a faint blue glow or arching. It is very likely that Spark plugs, distributor cap and rotor have been changed since '66. It is likely that you are still using the original, 40 year old spark plug wires. IF you do replace your plug wires, consider a 7mm wire with a spiral core center. It's what's on the inside that counts.

Q- I shouldn't have to replace my coil right? A- Correct, but don't fall for the myth that coils do not wear out. Coils do degrade over time. It becomes especially noticeable as performance demands increase. An old, time worn coil will respond slower, often causing a miss when demands are highest- higher rpms, wider plug gap, heavy lugging.

Q- Do I have to get a new distributor cap? A- No, but your distributor cap and rotor must be clean and in serviceable condition.

Also- check over the vacuum advance hoses from the carb to the distributor, making sure that there are no vacuum leaks. Try setting the initial advance an additional 5 degrees more then stock specs suggest.

YOu will likely experience a slight increase in idle rpm. Adjust to stock or slightly lower setting. You will notice quicker startup. You may notice improved economy.

Enjoy the journey.

Adios, David

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Nick,
Ditto to all the previous replies. I did this same upgrade 3-4 years ago, and have been very pleased. After I ordered a Pertronix, and started to install I had questions about their install instructions. Maybe have been changed with a current Pertronix. I did an internet search and found a site with info that could help you www.vintage-automotive.com click on their "Tech Tips". Good luck Lowell

 

[LaGrasta]

I've said it over and over. This was my favorite upgrade to date. I did the Pertronix, 40,000 coil, 8mm wires and regapped plugs. The moment I touched the key, I smiled and haven't stopped since.

Pertronix…$75
generic coil…$20
Accel wires…$15

Took all of 20 minutes to install and I haven't touched it since.

 

[Anonymous]

okay - i must agree with most everyone's posts here, however, i feel it is only right that i tell you to beware as petronix have been known to fail. I loved the concept and used numerous ignitors in different cars with overall improved results (compared to stock set ups...i.e. points). However, I just recently found that I had a defective unit. Dealing with petronix, as a company was fine, but I decided to play it safe for now and go with new points. To be perfectly honest, I can hardly tell a difference between petronix (when it worked right) and new points. But others here have a great point when they say that worn points will not perform nearly as well as a working pertronix unit.

Definitely take etcetera's advice and keep some spare points in your glove box if you go with pertronix...as for me, I'm going to DSII from points. Good luck with whichever path that you choose!

 

[Lazy JW]

...To be perfectly honest, I can hardly tell a difference between petronix (when it worked right) and new points...

Ahhhh! So refreshing to find a clear head in an honest man

When a properly maintained set of points are removed and replaced with a Pertronix unit (with no other changes), there will be no difference in performance. All that the points do is turn the coil on and off, the Pertronix does exactly the same thing. There truly is no magic here. Any perceived performance increase over a PROPERLY maintained breaker point ignition falls under the category of "Placebo affect".

However, the Pertronix will allow you to bypass the resistor and run a full 12 volts to the coil. This WILL send more current and allow a stronger spark to be developed. Of course, the stock coil was not designed to take full advantage of this, so best to replace it with an upraded coil.

There are many satisfied Pertronix users. Just don't expect a stock coil receiving stock voltage to give anything but stock performance. If you keep the stock points and use them to trigger an MSD unit/coil you really WILL see an improvement.
Joe

 

[JackFish]

OK Joe, I'm soliciting your honest opinion. Anyone else's for that matter!
And I'm sure this has been asked and answered a thousand times aleady, I replaced the stock coil about 8 months ago. Is there any reason whatsoever to go to a higher voltage coil? Why not?

 

[LaGrasta]

yes, go to a hotter coil. Bottom line… more fire in the hole!

 

[61Futura]

I'm going to replace my 170 with a 200 &C4 first thing this spring and then go with the new D.U.I. option. I'll first have to find out about the avalable timing curves they come with to match the carburetor. I don't want to have to buy a carburetor because I hope to go with the aluminum head and God only knows what kind of fuel delivery system. The D.U.I. can be custom curved & then recurved for the build up. I also have a 250 sitting in the corner that keeps me thinking about what block I'll bolt that head onto. I'll probably have enough trouble squeezing the small C4 into the small tranny tunnel in my 61.

Being blind in 1 eye, I've never been able to learn to weld. That has limited what I can change on my cars. If I do have to hire someone to do any welding, I'll get the largest tranny tunnel possible. I'm getting off topic here.

I would get the highest output coil that Pertronix suggests for their Ignitor module if you use their Ignitor. The new coil may need a ballast resistor. Follow all manufacturers instructions so you don't pull more current than the Ignitor can handle without burning out. Or have too much ballast with your stock wiring and get poor performance from that. Before making the purchase, you should make sure your current distributor isn't about worn out. Distributors don't last forever. And the small dimensions of the old caps may not be able to handle the highest output coil voltage. DSII will get you a bigger cap & wires. But a new distributor means new advance methods which means a new matching carburetor. That makes the D.U.I. my choice after points and the removal of the 170 that can't use the DSII or D.U.I. options. I'll soon have a 66 Mustang drive train installed to work with. And a spare 68 200 to build up while I get the other 200 &C4 set up & functioning.

Late last summer, a chevy guy parked a 62 Falcon on the grass near his garage. I'm going to have to talk him out of working on Fords so I can get that from him for cheap. Or at least sell him some parts if it is & will remain an I6 car. If its an early 62 with a six banger, it should be easy to talk him out of converting it to V8.

Sorry to ramble on. I have 2 days to bring the Falcon home out of storage. It has gotten my mind going in all directions today. It is still too cold to start any work on it. The thick bumpy ice on my driveway is depressing. Another week of below freezing weather in the forecast. Flood forecasts keep talking higher water levels when it thaws out. I'm done rambling.

 

[Lazy JW]

OK Joe, I'm soliciting your honest opinion. Anyone else's for that matter!
And I'm sure this has been asked and answered a thousand times aleady, I replaced the stock coil about 8 months ago. Is there any reason whatsoever to go to a higher voltage coil? Why not?

An ignition coil is really just a transformer. It "transforms" low-voltage, high-current electrical flow into high-voltage, low-current flow.

When the breaker points close, current flows through the primary windings of the coil, through the points, and finally back to the battery through "ground". This induces an electromagnetic field in the coil that surrounds the secondary windings in the coil. When the points open, the primary current stops, and the electromagnetic field collapses, which induces a high-voltage current in the secondary windings. This voltage is directly related to the number of windings (ratio) in the secondary circuit. The more windings, the higher the voltage. The voltage then bulds up until it is finally able to jump the spark plug gap. IT WILL NOT DEVELOP ANY HIGHER VOLTAGE than needed to jump this gap. So unless you really need more voltage to jump a larger gap, it won't do any good. Higher compression pressures also require more voltage.

HOWEVER, there is a catch. When we add more windings to increase voltage, the CURRENT is further reduced, and it is actually the current (measured in joules) that lights the fire. There is no free lunch. The only real way to have both is to increase the primary current. This is best done by using a coil designed for the task with lower impedance. Trouble is, breaker points won't carry that extra current for long without burning. Enter the so-called "electronic" (breakerless) ignition. Then there is no excuse to use a puny coil. Why Ford chose to use that sorry stock coil on the DS2 is beyond me, it is essentially the same coil as the breaker points ignition, ballast resistor and all.

You asked for my honest opinion. On a stock engine using a stock breaker point ignition there is no real world benefit to installing a "high voltage" coil. The engine isn't capable of developing the dynamics that require higher voltage to fire the plugs, and once the plug fires, the extra voltage potential is wasted. With the "high voltage" coil the current has also been reduced, so there will actually be LESS available heat (current) to light the fire, although it is doubtful that you would ever notice it.

If you modify the engine so that it can really benefit from higher voltage, best to upgrade the whole package so that it can handle higher primary current. Keep in mind that the early factory "electronic" ignitions retained the breaker points and merely used them to trigger a module that carried the higher current. The points last practically forever in those systems, and they tend to work quite well.

Bottom line is this; if you try to run much more than 3-4 amps through your breaker points you will have trouble. Just like Mr. Kettering and associates detirmined at the old Detroit Electric Co. (Delco) many years ago. And due to the laws of physics you can only get about so much ZAP out of 3 amps @ 12 volts. "High voltage" sells coils, but the current does the work. Sorta like "horsepower" sells cars, but torque gets the work done.
Joe

 

[Anonymous]

Well said Joe. Very good explanation! I’ll mention that you had a typo regarding the current measured in Joules. It would be more correct to say it is the combination of the current and voltage that produce the energy (joules) that you referred to. As Joe mentioned, there is a tradeoff. If your car is running lean or has a high compression ratio and the gas mixture requires more voltage to jump the gap, then it will do so, but it will do so with less available current resulting in the same energy delivered.

By using cores and windings that have lower resistance and better cooling designs, some hi performance coils may be more efficient and have less power losses. However, this small efficiency gain is not something you are going to notice in a street application. As Joe mentioned, the spark is going to Jump when it can, not when the decal on the coil says it will. It may have a tad more benefit on a full blown race application, but then those engine compression ratios, fuels, ignition, rpm etc are not in the realms of street engines.

As Joe mentioned and has stated on many occasions, using an MSD box in conjunction with points can get you an upgraded ignition by delivering more spark energy. The MSD box stores more energy in the capacitors and then delivers that energy to the coil. More energy in results in more energy out of even a stock coil (assuming the coil can handle the increased energy). I have used an MSD box on an old dual point distributor for nearly a decade. Pertronix does not make a kit for the distributor and the dual points are hard to locate now. I use a single set of points to trigger the box. The performance gains that resulted are probably attributable to the fact that the dual carbs run very rich at idle, and the higher energy and multi-spark function of the MSD box have decreased the number of mis-fires. But if my old Vette were tuned properly, other than crisper starts, there probably would be little difference in the conventional ignition and the CD ignition.
So sign me up in Joe's camp, no real performance benefit to the higher voltage coil.
Doug

 

[CobraSix]

...To be perfectly honest, I can hardly tell a difference between petronix (when it worked right) and new points...

When a properly maintained set of points are removed and replaced with a Pertronix unit (with no other changes), there will be no difference in performance. All that the points do is turn the coil on and off, the Pertronix does exactly the same thing. There truly is no magic here. Any perceived performance increase over a PROPERLY maintained breaker point ignition falls under the category of "Placebo affect".

Correct, however those 'new' points start degrading immediately. If you drive your car everyday like I do, it's just another maintenance item that must be addressed. The only real advantage of other ignition systems is the running of increased voltage coils that would otherwise hasten the demise of points.

But the idea is right. New points vs pertronix vs DS2 as far as the triggering system goes, will not change performance. It's just the maintence and adjustment you get rid of.

Slade

 

[Lazy JW]

... It would be more correct to say it is the combination of the current and voltage that produce the energy (joules) that you referred to...

I stand most humbly corrected
Joe

 

[wsa111]

Nick, use the pertronix I, not the pertronix II.

Many members of the forum have have had idle & stalling problems with the pertronix II.

The pertronix I is light years ahead of points. A high voltage coil would help, but is not necessary.

I would also put a full 12 volts to the coil for maximum performance. William