Rough idle + pinging

[thesameguy]

Well, owning an oddball car nobody can ID is par for the course for me.

Maybe I'll just drive this thing down to California Mustang in San Jose and match up their suspension kit against what's on the car and go from there. That'd be a fun drive anyway.

Edit: Crap! They're on San Jose Avenue not in the city of San Jose. Bit of a mileage difference there. Heh.

 

[bubba22349]

Have you checked Dearborn Classics?

http://www.dearbornclassics.com/suspens ... Suspension

 

[thesameguy]

I've found various kits all over the place, but they all say 62+ or 63+ - I'm just trying to determine conclusively what it is that I've got. I remembered the other day about Sacramento Mustang and they're just up the street from me, so I may cruise up there and see what they say.

I just don't know how to identify -'61 suspension versus '62+ suspension... are there obvious differences between the two?

 

[bubba22349]

In my opine your Falcon is a 62 and was built in Jan 62. This is based on what I remember when working at the Ford assembly plant in Pico Rivera (Tbirds and big Fords). During the summer we shut down for two weeks so they could do the change over for the next model year. These cars were shipped to the dealers (DSO) and around mid Sept. were on sale. Though its quite possible to find the previous year model parts on the early production cars of the next year, a car built in Jan would be in the middle of the production year. Do you have some pictures of your front suspension parts? One difference that the early Falcons had was a brass bushing in the coil spring saddle instead of a rubber bushing all the years after. If you decide to swap in different parts a number of later years will fit and you can also do the Shelby drop (Mustang) to improve the handling

 

[thesameguy]

In my opine your Falcon is a 62 and was built in Jan 62. This is based on what I remember when working at the Ford assembly plant in Pico Rivera (Tbirds and big Fords). During the summer we shut down for two weeks so they could do the change over for the next model year. These cars were shipped to the dealers (DSO) and around mid Sept. were on sale. Though it quite possible to find the previous year model parts on the early production cars of the next year, a car built in Jan would be in the middle of the production year. Do you have some pictures of your front suspension parts? One difference that the early Falcons had was a brass bushing in the coil spring saddle instead of a rubber bushing all the year after. If you decide to swap in different parts a number of later years will fit and you can also do the Shelby drop (Mustang) to improve the handling

I'll get a picture of the front suspension tonight or tomorrow. IIRC, it's rubber in there. Anything else I should look for?

A production date of January '61 makes no sense to me either - even if the car *was* built for MY 1961 but sold in 1962, I wouldn't expect the VIN number to have changed - or at least there would be evidence that it had been changed since it's stamped in metal.

I really appreciate all your help!

 

[thesameguy]

Here are two pics of the front suspension, hopefully what you need!

Larger versions of the same pictures:

http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... nsusp1.jpg
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... nsusp2.jpg

Thank you!

 

[bubba22349]

The last cars I worked on were a 65 Falcon Futura (6) and 66 Mustang (V8). Yours looks like the same parts except for the upper 3 bolt ball joints some times these were just converted to later 4 bolt ball joints.

These are the Org. type Front end parts
1961 to 65 Upper Control Arm Shaft Kit - Falcon & Comet C3DZ-3047-KT
Upper Ball Joint - 3 Bolt Pattern - Falcon & Comet Year: 1960-1962 Part #: C1DZ-3049-A

Lower Control Arm Bushing - Rubber - Falcon & Comet Year: 1960-1965 Part #: CODZ-3069-A
Lower Ball Joint - Falcon & Comet Year: 1962-1965 Part #: C2DZ-3050-B

Coil Springs - Falcon Only Year: 1960-1962 Part #: CODZ-5310-PR

Shock Absorber Lower Mount - Front - Reproduction - Falcon & Comet & Montego Year: 1960-1970 Part #: C7OZ-3388-B
Stabilizer Bar End Repair Kit - Falcon Year: 1960-1962 Part #: CODZ-5A486-KT
Stabilizer Bar Bushing - Mounts On The Frame - Comet Year: 1960-1962 Part #: B9A-5493-B
Stabilizer Bar Bushing - For 11/16" Bar - Falcon Year: 1960-1970 Part #: C6OZ-5493-B

Strut Rod Bushing Kit - 7 Pieces - Use With 1-1/16"-18 Threaded Strut - From 10-15-61 - Falcon Year: 1962-1963 Part #: C2DZ-3A187-KT
These are the Org. type Rear parts
Leaf Spring Shackle Kit - For Rear Of Leaf Spring - Falcon Year: 1960-1963 Part #: CODZ-5630-D

Some Shock #
Shock Absorber - Front - Gas Charged - Heavy-Duty - Monro-Matic Plus - Falcon & Ranchero & Comet & Montego Year: 1960-1970 Part #: C6OZ-18124-M

Shock Absorber - Rear - Gas Charged - Heavy-Duty - Monro-Matic Plus - Falcon & Comet Year: 1960-1965 Part #: B7A-18125-M
Shock Absorber - Rear - Gas Charged - Heavy-Duty - Motorcraft - Falcon & Comet Year: 1960-1965 Part #: B7A-18125-F

 

[thesameguy]

The last cars I worked on were a 65 Falcon Futura (6) and 66 Mustang (V8). Yours looks like the same parts except for the upper 3 bolt ball joints some times these were just converted to later 4 bolt ball joints.

So as long as I am changing the upper a-arm, I can use whatever ball joint it requires and it'll match up with the spindle ok?

If so, I'm just gonna pick up one of the kits out there & call it a day!

Thanks!

 

[bubba22349]

Sure are they damaged? The 3 bolt & 4 bolt ball joints are the same price and both are still available new. If you want you to change the A Arms to a 4 bolt ball joint Part # C4DZ-3082-B fits 1963-1965 Falcon & Comet 1964 to 66 Mustangs On new Lower A Arm Part # C4DZ-3078-A fits 1962-1965 Falcon & Comet 1964-1966 Mustang. Good luck with the hunt

 

[chad]

Sheesh bubba. R U a parts house?

No, really, we got a guy, "numbers dummy" - over on the FTE site; provides an incredable service (like this). From retirement some where in SoCal, had 30 -40 yrs as prts man career, he can provide prts numbers from like the 20s thru the 21st century AND has connections for many "obsolete prts" stuffed in back rooms nation wide. Even seems to know non-USA ford prts #s. Don't know how U guys do it

You're givin HIM a good run for the money.

Happy Fathers Day to ALL!

 

[bubba22349]

Thank you been restoring old Fords as hobby since 1963 and later on worked as a mechanic for many years. Always had an interest in Fords form the 1920's to the 70's. have lots of old parts books and manuals for reference help. Would like to meet that guy on the FTE site, it's getting hard to find people with that kind of skill at finding the old parts. Happy Fathers Day guys

 

[chad]

lots of old parts books and manuals for reference help. Would like to meet that guy on the FTE site, it's getting hard to find people with that

Love ta help U as U have Us (me anyway!).
Lemkmie No if U wanna connect w/'im.

AND thank U 4 that wish, long story but means alot 2 me - right back 2 ya cousin.

 

[bubba22349]

Yeah was for me too about the "Best day of my life" Fathers

 

[chad]

Yeah was for me too about the "Best day of my life" Fathers

G R E A T !!! Mede me think bout grndparents day, mo's day etc...what bout "kid's day"? My neighbor (3 kids under 6) say "nah, every day is 'kid's day'."

 

[thesameguy]

Sure are they damaged? The 3 bolt & 4 bolt ball joints are the same price and both are still available new. If you want you to change the A Arms to a 4 bolt ball joint Part # C4DZ-3082-B fits 1963-1965 Falcon & Comet 1964 to 66 Mustangs On new Lower A Arm Part # C4DZ-3078-A fits 1962-1965 Falcon & Comet 1964-1966 Mustang. Good luck with the hunt

I don't think they're damaged, but I don't know specifically what is or isn't, and I don't want to take it apart to find out. It's just easier for me to pick up an entire new front end and replace it all rather than order it piecemeal as I find problems. For a couple hundred bucks, it's peace of mind.

Thanks for your help - I've got a full weekend coming up working on my '67 Fleetwood, but I should get to this the weekend following.

 

[thesameguy]

"Weekend following" or two months later, it's about the same, yeah?

Picked up the rebuild kit from California Mustang (http://www.cal-mustang.com/) last weekend... the LCAs are backordered so I am STILL not moving forward with my suspension rebuild. Meh!

Car has been running and driving great, but it's still running richer than I think it should be. On my narrowband A:F gauge (connected to a heated O2 sensor) I've got:

Idle: A couple bars away from max'ing the gauge out, which is about halfway through "Rich"
Cruising: Same
Full throttle: A bar into "Rich," sometimes dipping down to the top end of "Stoich"

I have the idle mixture screw at the end of its travel, no way to lean that out anymore. I have replaced the almost-new but possibly abused Motorcraft BF-82 plugs with brand new ones. The ones that came out were fairly blackened, probably from my ongoing tuning experiments. I widened the gap from .035 to 040 on the new plugs... I think Pertronix+Flamethrower should be able to handle that.

Any thoughts on what's next... re-jet the carb, bump up timing, more gap? Anything I haven't thought of? I am sure I am sacrificing both power and economy by running this rich, and it's probably not ideal for the engine & oil anyway.

 

[Frankenstang]

I have the idle mixture screw at the end of its travel, no way to lean that out anymore...Any thoughts on what's next... re-jet the carb, bump up timing, more gap? Anything I haven't thought of?

You may need to re-jet, but a couple other things to consider (not sure which carb you are running) float level set too high will allow too much gas, too much fuel pump pressure can push the needle valve off it's seat in spite of proper float setting, or a worn or damage idle air bleed screw (occasionally they can be over tightened and damage the tip of the screw and/or it's seat. If you close the idle air bleed all the way (careful not to overtighten) that should cut off fuel if curb idle is ~800rpm or lower. It is possible to set the curb idle so high the the idle air bleed has no effect. Let us know what you find, and good luck!

 

[thesameguy]

Idle is set to 675rpm, which ends up being about 640rpm with the transmission in drive - or thereabouts.

The carb - a factory Holley (not Autolite) - was rebuilt just a few months ago by reputable professionals - I'd hope the bleed screw would have been inspected, but I don't know. I did have it totally out many months ago, and the tip did not look mangled... it was not a point, it was flat at the tip. But not a very wide tip.

When you say closing the bleed all the way should cut fuel, do you mean it should *totally* cut fuel, like engine dead? That has never been the case, still isn't.

 

[Frankenstang]

Idle is set to 675rpm, which ends up being about 640rpm with the transmission in drive - or thereabouts...When you say closing the bleed all the way should cut fuel, do you mean it should *totally* cut fuel, like engine dead?

Yes, in that rpm range you're running on the idle circuit. The A/F ratio for idle circuit is controlled by that mixture screw. When turned all the way in it deprives the idle circuit of the vacuum needed to draw the fuel in and maintain the idle A/F ratio. Turn it in far enough and the engine starts to stumble, close it and the engine should die. I assume it would be the same on your Holley as it is for the Autollites, but I'm not as familiar with the Holleys.

If you're having rich conditions throughout the range I would suspect either the float level is set too high (not too tough to check), or it could be possible the fuel pump is putting out too much pressure. I know the webers are known for being particularly picky about too much pressure...seems I recall hearing the same about the holleys (IIRC). This would also be easy to check with a decent fuel pressure gauge hooked up inline after the pump (harbor freight sells an inexpensive one).

I didn't read back through the thread to see which model holley you have, but if you know the model number or can post a pic then someone with more experience with holley's might be able to give some ideas to key in on...based on what you said about it running too rich, fuel has to be bypassing somewhere. Hope this helps some

EDIT: it's likely not a 'super rich' condition, as that would show itself in poor idle and performance...so this may point more towards checking fuel pump pressure first

 

[thesameguy]

Ah, working on old cars that have been through dozens of owners...

The carb is a 1909 - had to go back and look myself.

The only thing that gives me pause about fuel pressure is that this symptom (bleed screw doing nothing) was present with the old mechanical pump, pre carb rebuild and with the new electric pump, post carb rebuild. The float was replaced during the rebuild, so it seems the seems these symptoms should have at least changed between mechanical pump/damaged float and electric pump/new float. But maybe I'm giving credit where credit is not due. The old float apparently had a hole in it (I didn't see it), so it's possible the replacement float was not properly adjusted... I'd guess damaged float and misadjusted float could yield the exact same symptoms. I should probably find the specs for adjusting it and check it out. Also, the relief valve on the mechanical fuel pump was trashed, so I suppose that could have yielded the exact same over-pressure scenario I've got now. I've moved nowhere.

Unfortunately I sort of hamstrung myself on that front by buying a cheapo fuel pressure gauge that is not apparently very reliable. I seem to recall a time when the Mr Gasket brand was at least somewhat decent. At the time it was more a diagnostic tool ("is there fuel pressure") rather than a precision instrument, so no harm no foul. I'll get that replaced with something decent/accurate and see where I am. I'd hate to clutter things up with a massive fuel pressure regulator... Do you know if anyone has ever addressed fuel pressure on an electric pump by reducing voltage to the pump? On fuel injected cars Ford often stuck a resistor wire in the circuit to drop voltage/flow to a lower rate. Wonder if I can do the same with the Carter.

Mixture isn't horrifically rich, but it's definitely too rich. I am giving away power and economy on this.