All Small Six To Build a 200 or 250?

[StarDiero75]

The next step is to get the short block apart and have the machine shop clean and figure out how much the cylinders need to be bored to clean them up.
This will tell you what size piston you will need.

Have the block deck surface machined just enough to clean the surface for good head gasket sealing.
Then have the block deck height measured so you will know what the piston CH needs to be.

Have the crankshaft checked for cracks.

At the same time start on the cylinder head.
The finished cylinder heads combustion chamber volume will determine the piston dish volume to get the correct compression ratio.
You will need to decide on a camshaft which will determine what valve spring to install on the head.

Here is the last turbo cam Schneider ground for a 200 six.
It will have a power band right about where you need to be.

Oof thats a lot of money all at once haha. Hopefully it doesn't need much. They looked decent and don't really have a ridge on them. But that seems like the logical way to approach it. Thanks man. Now how much will that cam change if I use the 1.65 yella terra rolllers? Turbo cams are custom grinds, right? The cam too will be dependent on the transmission i run too, right? B/c drag 200 above brought up a good point.

For the turbo build on 14psi, what kind of compressions should I be aiming for? 8.5?

 

[bubba22349]

X2 No Forged steel Cranks in any of the Ford Small Six's, unless you want to have a custom Billet one Made. Those Big Bell 200 short blocks should have the Forged Connecting Rods, Ford went back to them again at the end after using the Cast Steel Rods in the late 1970's for a year or two.

 

[drag-200stang]

Keep in mind the turbo oil drain, too low and you need a pump, you do not want that unless totally unavoidable. Also, in your planning turbine back pressure after the turbo is just as important as before and even more so.
Maybe I am to old school, but I do not see the advantage of a hyd. system unless you want to control the release of the clutch with controls. You cannot get something for nothing, mechanical leverage or hyd. is the same. If you want it easer just change the pivot points to get more pedal travel for less effort and I do not mean that it has to be at the pedal, maybe at the z bar or fork.

 

[pmuller9]

Now how much will that cam change if I use the 1.65 yella terra rolllers? Turbo cams are custom grinds, right? The cam too will be dependent on the transmission i run too, right? B/c drag 200 above brought up a good point.

For the turbo build on 14psi, what kind of compressions should I be aiming for? 8.5?

You don't need over .500" valve lift if this a street driven engine.
The cam lobe lift would need to be lower to keep the valve lift closer to .500"

Yes, turbo cams are a custom grind, but presently since no one stocks Ford inline six cams, all camshafts are custom.

Engines with automatic transmissions don't have to worry about off idle torque because you can choose a torque converter with a stall speed that is just at the beginning of the power band.

An 8.5 compression ratio is conservative, but the small amount of torque lost by 1/2 point in compression is easily made up by a pound of boost.
The 8.5 will make the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing less critical.

The 200/250 heads, be it log, 2V and even the aluminum have short valves making it difficult to get the clearance needed for high valve lifts and the valve spring installed height for springs that have the spring pressures needed for high rpm use.
At best we see valve spring retainer heights at 1.650"
I'm going to ask you to take several measurements.

 

[pmuller9]

The first measurement is the retainer height from the valve spring seat.

The Second measurement is: How far does the valve travel before the valve spring retainer runs into the valve stem seal?

 

[StarDiero75]

The first measurement is the retainer height from the valve spring seat.

The Second measurement is: How far does the valve travel before the valve spring retainer runs into the valve stem seal?

Will either of these measurements change if I upgrade to 1.75/1.47? Maybe the valve length or how deep the new seats get cut into the head.

 

[StarDiero75]

You don't need over .500" valve lift if this a street driven engine.
The cam lobe lift would need to be lower to keep the valve lift closer to .500"

Yes, turbo cams are a custom grind, but presently since no one stocks Ford inline six cams, all camshafts are custom.

Engines with automatic transmissions don't have to worry about off idle torque because you can choose a torque converter with a stall speed that is just at the beginning of the power band.

An 8.5 compression ratio is conservative, but the small amount of torque lost by 1/2 point in compression is easily made up by a pound of boost.
The 8.5 will make the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing less critical.

The 200/250 heads, be it log, 2V and even the aluminum have short valves making it difficult to get the clearance needed for high valve lifts and the valve spring installed height for springs that have the spring pressures needed for high rpm use.
At best we see valve spring retainer heights at 1.650"
I'm going to ask you to take several measurements.

Ok so the plan is a hydraulic lifter cam, cam lift in the .310 range to achieve a similar total lift of .512 of the cam card you sent. Is solid lifter better in this application? You mentioned this earlier.

I'm fairly divided on the transmission option. Can a AOD be built to handle 470hp? Or ia that asking too much? I've heard they aren't as stout. This is something I'd really like not to have to repeat since the clutch assembly for this is going to be expensive.

I was thinking the 8.5 was conservative too. More boost fixes all problems, till it causes them haha.

The top of the guide boss can be milled to accommodate a higher lift, right? I'll get those measurements tomorrow

 

[StarDiero75]

Keep in mind the turbo oil drain, too low and you need a pump, you do not want that unless totally unavoidable. Also, in your planning turbine back pressure after the turbo is just as important as before and even more so.
Maybe I am to old school, but I do not see the advantage of a hyd. system unless you want to control the release of the clutch with controls. You cannot get something for nothing, mechanical leverage or hyd. is the same. If you want it easer just change the pivot points to get more pedal travel for less effort and I do not mean that it has to be at the pedal, maybe at the z bar or fork.

Ooo i didn't even think of that. Great point. Maybe the battery relocation may have to happen. With the turbine output, I just need to make the exhaust as free flowing as possible, right?

Maybe I'll do that instead and jerry rig a bracket using a longer bolt for the bell housing and mounting it off that. A piece of angle iron might work well. A hydraulic clutch is expensive too lol. Thanks for steering me away from that.

 

[pmuller9]

A solid lifter cam will give you better valve train stability above 5500 rpm.
On a turbo engine the exhaust valve is hard to open against the cylinder pressure which can collapse a hydraulic lifter.
Have a solid lifter cam made to similar specs.
It will be ok to have higher lobe lift because you lose about. 020” valve lift due to valve to rocker clearance.

Yes, you can machine some off the top of the valve guide boss to increase valve travel but that does not fix the valve spring installed height issue.

Definitely move the battery to the trunk.

Yes, the turbine exhaust just needs to be free flowing.

 

[StarDiero75]

A solid lifter cam will give you better valve train stability above 5500 rpm.
On a turbo engine the exhaust valve is hard to open against the cylinder pressure which can collapse a hydraulic lifter.
Have a solid lifter cam made to similar specs.
It will be ok to have higher lobe lift because you lose about. 020” valve lift due to valve to rocker clearance.

Yes, you can machine some off the top of the valve guide boss to increase valve travel but that does not fix the valve spring installed height issue.

Definitely move the battery to the trunk.

Yes, the turbine exhaust just needs to be free flowing.

Excellent sir. This is going to come together nicely. That makes a lot of sense to use the solid lifter in boost applications. I've thought about the resistance of the exhaust valve on the gasses before ,I'm glad you mentioned that.
Ohhh gotcha. The spring will end up binding, I see. Now would a dual spring help that at all since they can have thinner coils and allow for more compression?

I'll get those measurements in a bit.

 

[bubba22349]

Ok so the plan is a hydraulic lifter cam, cam lift in the .310 range to achieve a similar total lift of .512 of the cam card you sent. Is solid lifter better in this application? You mentioned this earlier.

I'm fairly divided on the transmission option. Can a AOD be built to handle 470hp? Or ia that asking too much? I've heard they aren't as stout. This is something I'd really like not to have to repeat since the clutch assembly for this is going to be expensive.

I was thinking the 8.5 was conservative too. More boost fixes all problems, till it causes them haha.

The top of the guide boss can be milled to accommodate a higher lift, right? I'll get those measurements tomorrow

The stock AOD parts can handle up to 450 H.P. also the AODE or 4R70W/E parts can be fitted into the AOD's to beef it up some more. Installing a One Piece Aftermarket input shaft in place of the 2 Piece Input Shaft can bring the parts strength up to the 600 H.P. Range. The Valve body needs some work to get the shifting right. There are Cars with built up AOD's and putting 1100 to 1200 HP through them including some GM's running these Transmissions now.

 

[bmbm40]

Very impressive. I had no idea the AOD could handle that much hp.

 

[chad]

sorta late... & C #56 w/a 'steel shim'.
If w/o imperfections can this be used to advantage?
Is it still around?
EDIT:
not good for turbo?

 

[StarDiero75]

1.580" spring height
.430" before hitting seal

Apparently this didn't post last night, don't know why. Here it is Pmuller. Looks like it will need to be cut down. Maybe a different seal than the umbrella?

 

[StarDiero75]

The stock AOD parts can handle up to 450 H.P. also the AODE or 4R70W/E parts can be fitted into the AOD's to beef it up some more. Installing a One Piece Aftermarket input shaft in place of the 2 Piece Input Shaft can bring the parts strength up to the 600 H.P. Range. The Valve body needs some work to get the shifting right. There are Cars with built up AOD's and putting 1100 to 1200 HP through them including some GM's running these Transmissions now.

Wow, i always heard the AOD was a weak transmission. I had no idea it did that kind of power. Personally, I could never neuter my Ranchero and make it an auto, unless the day came my left knee says goodbye haha. Howerver, this is definitely the trans that would replace my 5spd. Can a T5 be built to hold 470hp? Or would that definitely require a TKO, or something of that flavor?

 

[bubba22349]

The strongest 5.0 T5 that is like yours was the Ford Mustang Cobra version, but all those T5's are all rated by the Torque they can handle.

 

[pmuller9]

1.580" spring height
.430" before hitting seal

Apparently this didn't post last night, don't know why. Here it is Pmuller. Looks like it will need to be cut down. Maybe a different seal than the umbrella?

You need at least .100" more valve travel.
If you cut the valve stem guides down .100" there may not be enough guide height to install valve stem seals.
It still limits the availability of valve springs.

Didn't we go through this same exercise back in April?
What's the difference between then and now?
https://www.fordsix.com/threads/200-aussie-2v-build.83483/post-664243

 

[StarDiero75]

You need at least .100" more valve travel.
If you cut the valve stem guides down .100" there may not be enough guide height to install valve stem seals.
It still limits the availability of valve springs.

Didn't we go through this same exercise back in April?
What's the difference between then and now?
https://www.fordsix.com/threads/200-aussie-2v-build.83483/post-664243

Nothings really changed other than going turbo now. This is unfortunate. I was not excited for going custom valves and was looking to keep stock valves. Looks like time to shell out more money. Good news is, now i don't need to swap to guides or retainers. So some savings there.

What happens with geometery of thr rockers? Do I need to add shims under the rockers to compensate for the taller valves?

This is where I should pick a cam, then add like .050" for clearance, right?

 

[pmuller9]

What happens with geometry of the rockers? Do I need to add shims under the rockers to compensate for the taller valves?

This is where I should pick a cam, then add like .050" for clearance, right?

Yes, the rockers will need to be shimmed to get the correct rocker geometry.

Get the cam and add .050" to the valve lift for clearance is a good plan.
You will also need the cam specs to get the correct valve springs.

Do the valve stems measure .343"?

 

[rocklord]

Wow, i always heard the AOD was a weak transmission. I had no idea it did that kind of power. Personally, I could never neuter my Ranchero and make it an auto, unless the day came my left knee says goodbye haha. Howerver, this is definitely the trans that would replace my 5spd. Can a T5 be built to hold 470hp? Or would that definitely require a TKO, or something of that flavor?

Check out the TKX transmission. It has a torque rating of 600 ft.lb., significantly higher than a T-5.

https://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=184

The TKX is also smaller than the TKO, so it may fit in your application.

TKO VS TKX

What are the differences? This article is to help you understand the basic differences in the TKO 5-speed and the new TKX that replaces it....Read More

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