Click Here -> Please Consider Making a PayPal Contribution to the FordSix Forum!
2019 Contributors:
NJwpod, 1strodeo, mightynorseman, maxtrux, 6d7coupe, broncr, Phase3, 68Flareside240, bmbm40,
mustang6, WorldChampGramp, justintendo, BigBlue94, ags290, motorsickle1130, Rooster, ousooner919, ethanperry
rzcrisis, DoctorC, jamyers, Motorboy, fastpat, Silverback280, chad


<<< New Site Update >>>

Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Moderator: Mod Squad

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #1 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:01 am

So I have a brand new to me 66 coupe with a 200 ci / offy tri carb setup (holley 1940's I think) and a C4. I know the engine had the cam changed, but I'm unsure what's in it. I think it may be from Clifford. Right now it will start with a little effort and run, but the instant I put it in gear the engine dies.

Here's what I've been able to check so far:

manifold vacuum is about 14 at idle - steady.
timing - who knows? When i put the light on it the mark is about an inch above the scale on the engine. Adjusting it lowers my manifold vacuum and makes the engine run worse, so I think it's close.
I "looked" all over the engine with carb cleaner for a leak and could not find one. also check the modulator on the C4 and no leaks there.

The distributor does not have vacuum advance and the ported vacuum from the carbs are plugged and leak free.

I didn't put a tach on it yet, but the idle sounds plenty fast and appears to be running only off the center carb. The screws on the two outer carbs are all the way out. I've tried turning them in a little and other than a faster idle, it didn't change anything.

Not sure where I should be looking next.

Sorry for the lack of info on the engine itself, but right now it's all I have to go on.

Any help appreciated.

User avatar
powerband
FSP Moderator
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:45 pm
Location: Mid Hudson Valley - \H/

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #2 by powerband » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:37 am

WELCOME . anotherTri-Power, sounds like a nice ride, hope for some pics'. Stalling when put in gear is a sign of something basically wrong -typically simple but not obvious...

The Offy Tri-power will provide many hours of entertainment for a final performance tuning. For a start with an unfamiliar setup you may want to block outer carbs and try to tune for center carb only - first. You could then also swap inner-outer carbs for verifying outers' individual performance before trying to make three work right together.

... at idle typical Tri-Power setup closes off outer 2 carbs as much as possible at throttle plates so their idle-air adjust is whacky, usually shut or feathered for some 'leakage mix' from throttle shafts etc., shouldn't affect idle shift to gear unless A/F or ignition or combination is whacky.

Image


have (three times the) fun
"Take time to stop and smell... The roadkill..."

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4789
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #3 by chad » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:47 am

pic R great, frm pass side would B nice.

"...appears to be running only off the center carb..."
They usually run off center as 'main' or 'master' to other 2. Others come in as throttle is depressed. Look to linkage 4 ideas.
Wondering if that ctr carb needs a dash pot - 'choke pull of'- due to the C4.

Like anything new to U - trust nothing, let ear, fingers, smell, sound, sight tell U where to start 1st. Get positive ID on ALL prts/components. I''m thinkin 'slipped' HB/dampner, incorrectly rebuilt carbs/not matched to dizzy, etc as worse case scenerios AND work backwards on every system (not just motor) from there. This way driving safety and budget can coordinate. Good on ya mate! for goin to the carbs 1st as well, gotta run 1st. Then stop, steer, inspection, etc...

"...Not sure where I should be looking next. ..."
get the ctr 1 runnin right (pretend it's the only 1 at 1st, now - thru out the whole motor ie HB, ignition, etc). Then add the others. The 5 - 650 RPMs idle is good but needs higher (not sure exact #s) for the C4.

Congrats on new purchase. W E L C O M E !!! to the site, good choice on 1st stop~
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

CZLN6
VIP Member
Posts: 3325
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:07 am
Location: Idaho Falls, Id
Contact:

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #4 by CZLN6 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:57 am

Howdy greyghost:

First get a handle on your ignition timing and a correct mark. Verify that the timing mark on the damper is correct at top dead center and go from there. Since your ignition doesn't have vacuum advance you will likely want more initial advance, in the neighborhood of 15 degrees.

Next make sure that the outer carbs are completely closed for tuning. I'm assuming that the choke butterflys are gone and that the throttle shafts are tight. Get the center carb dialed in and then go from there. Please confirm that the carbs are Holley 1940s.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #5 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:48 pm

Wow. Lots of great responses and questions.

Let me follow 1st by saying I had some success this morning with it. I basically started over and got the carb cleaner back out. Once again, nothing definitive.

I fatten up the mixture by one turn on all carbs and instantly notices a big difference. Turned the idle down on the center carb to where it sounded about right, cracked the idle screw on the outer two and it appears to run fine in gear now - Awesome!

I still only have about 12" of manifold vacuum at idle, but the engine itself seems much closer to where it should be.

The center carb does have the choke pull off connected.

Not the best pic, but here's one.
Image

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #6 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:28 pm

chad wrote:pic R great, frm pass side would B nice.

"...appears to be running only off the center carb..."
They usually run off center as 'main' or 'master' to other 2. Others come in as throttle is depressed. Look to linkage 4 ideas.
Wondering if that ctr carb needs a dash pot - 'choke pull of'- due to the C4.

Like anything new to U - trust nothing, let ear, fingers, smell, sound, sight tell U where to start 1st. Get positive ID on ALL prts/components. I''m thinkin 'slipped' HB/dampner, incorrectly rebuilt carbs/not matched to dizzy, etc as worse case scenerios AND work backwards on every system (not just motor) from there. This way driving safety and budget can coordinate. Good on ya mate! for goin to the carbs 1st as well, gotta run 1st. Then stop, steer, inspection, etc...

"...Not sure where I should be looking next. ..."
get the ctr 1 runnin right (pretend it's the only 1 at 1st, now - thru out the whole motor ie HB, ignition, etc). Then add the others. The 5 - 650 RPMs idle is good but needs higher (not sure exact #s) for the C4.

Congrats on new purchase. W E L C O M E !!! to the site, good choice on 1st stop~


Pic:
Image

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4789
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Tri-power stalls when C4 placed into gear

Post #7 by chad » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:29 pm

That "fuel rail" is a lill in the way so my antique eyes can't C much...
Do U know what dizzy it has? Looks like the hard line is back for vac signal.
Still stall when 1st moving into gear?

Like the fellas say - just wrk the ctr carb (U will do best 2 4get the 2 on the ends. Block off if possible). Get the middle perfect 1st. Wrk the HB or replace for a good 'base'. Now it seems ur off & therefore only usin a vac. gauge. Need everything U can on trips.

(later we'll ask abt the linkage to throttle connection but just assure it all operates that ONE CENTER carb correctly for now). Nuttin getting hung up, nuttin slippin, TV or kick down cable OK...
This is Y we say 'block off others' as this allows U 2 take them out of the equation but not hafta tear dwn/set up link again if they're right 4 the 'extras' now. Two ways to set the link. up - simultaneous or ctr use than outters kick in. But that's for later when U got this 1 ctr runnin. Focus on that 4 now.
Keep talkin...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Tri-power stalls when C4 placed into gear

Post #8 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:27 pm

chad wrote:That "fuel rail" is a lill in the way so my antique eyes can't C much...
Do U know what dizzy it has? Looks like the hard line is back for vac signal.
Still stall when 1st moving into gear?

Like the fellas say - just wrk the ctr carb (U will do best 2 4get the 2 on the ends. Block off if possible). Get the middle perfect 1st. Wrk the HB or replace for a good 'base'. Now it seems ur off & therefore only usin a vac. gauge. Need everything U can on trips.

(later we'll ask abt the linkage to throttle connection but just assure it all operates that ONE CENTER carb correctly for now). Nuttin getting hung up, nuttin slippin, TV or kick down cable OK...
This is Y we say 'block off others' as this allows U 2 take them out of the equation but not hafta tear dwn/set up link again if they're right 4 the 'extras' now. Two ways to set the link. up - simultaneous or ctr use than outters kick in. But that's for later when U got this 1 ctr runnin. Focus on that 4 now.
Keep talkin...



Yeh, I'm not a big fan of the rail, but one thing at a time...
The dizzy is a dual point mallory - no vacuum advance fed by a big fat accel coil.
The hard vac line from the manifold goes back to the modulator on the C4. Only vac line i can find on the engine - nothing coming off ported.
Once warmed up, it stays running in gear - now. adjusting the mixture has apparently helped this....I hope. Still kinda cold hearted until it's warmed up.

I noticed that the front carb is hanging up on high idle. I just kick it off and forget about it for now.
From what i can tell, they are set up to be progressive. The center carb comes on first, then is followed by the other two. It looks to be correct according to the literature from Offy. At wide open throttle, all are open fully.

Thanks so much for the help. I'm slowly learning my way around this thing....

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #9 by bubba22349 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:44 pm

The carbs are indeed the Holley 1940 type I see that the center carb has a choke unit with a line coming off it (hot air stove line). How is this line hooked up down below? Did you verify that the choke is closed when cold and opened when warmed up? The ignistion system is a good one all you need to do is check that it has the proper point Dwel settings, verify the timing mark on the Dampner is correct, and then set the base timing at 12 to 14 degrees BTDC. Good luck. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #10 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:03 pm

bubba22349 wrote:The carbs are indeed the Holley 1940 type I see that the center carb has a choke unit with a line coming off it (hot air stove line). How is this line hooked up down below? Did you verify that the choke is closed when cold and opened when warmed up? The ignistion system is a good one all you need to do is check that it has the proper point Dwel settings, verify the timing mark on the Dampner is correct, and then set the base timing at 12 to 14 degrees BTDC. Good luck. :thumbup: :nod:


Actually, the line isn't hooked to anything. It just hangs there. There's a small open tube that's welded to the headers, but into them that I think it's supposed to be in.

I have verified that the choke or chokes are one when cold and open when warm.

I haven't worked much on the ignition yet. I need to find TDC on #1 and see where the damper is. I have moved the timing so that the mark was around 14 BTDC and it ran like crap and the vacuum dropped so for now I put it back where it was.

Thanks for the help.

User avatar
B RON CO
VIP Member
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:02 pm
Location: Long Island, NY
Contact:

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #11 by B RON CO » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:15 pm

Hi, your front carb (and probably the rear carb) are set up as progressive opening. You can see the stop on the carb linkage. Make sure the front and rear carbs open and close at the same time.
You can adjust them to come in earlier or later, but probably leave them alone for now. If you play with them I would Mark the linkage with tape so you can put it back of you don't like the change.
I think the outer carbs should be adjusted fully closed, and idle only on the middle carb.
Do the idle mixture screws to get the best idle. It sounds like you figure that out.
The distributor timing should be advanced more than factory specs. Unless you have a dial advance timing light all you will see is that the mark is over the timing tab. That is good. When you advance the timing the mark should go higher, it should also go higher, up under the water pump when you give it some gas. Advance is counter clockwise.
Anyway, don't be afraid to advance the timing as long as it doesn't ping when you drive. And after you get the timing set adjust the idle.
The idle RPM will depend on the cam, but hopefully you can get it @ 800 RPM
Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #12 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:26 pm

B RON CO wrote:Hi, your front carb (and probably the rear carb) are set up as progressive opening. You can see the stop on the carb linkage. Make sure the front and rear carbs open and close at the same time.
You can adjust them to come in earlier or later, but probably leave them alone for now. If you play with them I would Mark the linkage with tape so you can put it back of you don't like the change.
I think the outer carbs should be adjusted fully closed, and idle only on the middle carb.
Do the idle mixture screws to get the best idle. It sounds like you figure that out.
The distributor timing should be advanced more than factory specs. Unless you have a dial advance timing light all you will see is that the mark is over the timing tab. That is good. When you advance the timing the mark should go higher, it should also go higher, up under the water pump when you give it some gas. Advance is counter clockwise.
Anyway, don't be afraid to advance the timing as long as it doesn't ping when you drive. And after you get the timing set adjust the idle.
The idle RPM will depend on the cam, but hopefully you can get it @ 800 RPM
Good luck


You're right on with where the timing mark is right now. It's probably an inch or more over the timing tab, and it does advance further with some gas.
I just dug out the old tach/dwell meter so hopefully tomorrow I can get some additional info to share.

Thanks you!

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:31 pm

On that choke tube with a set of headers for good operation these lines will usally be coiled around one of the center tubes a number of turns the end of the tube is left open. The goal is for warm air to be drawn up into the choke unit to operate it. To help improve choke operation an insulating cover like is used on the OEM choke stove line also needs to be used, its slipped over the tube to help retain the heat going into the choke unit. It won't be very good if a hole is drilled in one of the header tubes and the choke line is put in it. i.e. Allowing Exhaust Gas contamination to be drawn into the choke unit. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #14 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:09 pm

bubba22349 wrote:On that choke tube with a set of headers for good operation these lines will usally be coiled around one of the center tubes a number of turns the end of the tube is left open. The goal is for warm air to be drawn up into the choke unit to operate it. To help improve choke operation an insulating cover like is used on the OEM choke stove line also needs to be used, its slipped over the tube to help retain the heat going into the choke unit. It won't be very good if a hole is drilled in one of the header tubes and the choke line is put in it. i.e. Allowing Exhaust Gas contamination to be drawn into the choke unit. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


That makes sense. The tube provided on the headers is just welded on to the side of one of the tubes (circled in pic). I wouldn't think of "plumbing" it into the exhaust.

I like the idea of coiling it around a pipe.

Image

User avatar
1strodeo
Registered User
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:09 am

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #15 by 1strodeo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:47 am

following this thread as I like to get all the Offy 3x1 info I can! :beer:

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #16 by thegreyghost » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:53 pm

1strodeo wrote:following this thread as I like to get all the Offy 3x1 info I can! :beer:


Well, I have certainly walked into this knowing almost nothing and with help am learning as I go.

I won't get a chance to work on the beast any today, but tomorrow I will post some RPM and Dwell numbers

User avatar
B RON CO
VIP Member
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:02 pm
Location: Long Island, NY
Contact:

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #17 by B RON CO » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:57 pm

Hi, on a dual point distributor you set each set of points separately. You have to clip the + wire from the dwell meter directly to the primary post from the coil on each set of points, one at a time. Check each set of points for a nice clean contact surface, I would first check the gaps with a feeler gauge, as you know, on the high spot on the cam.
I guess you will find the gap and dwell specs somewhere.
Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:20 pm

For a 6 cylinder Mallory Duel point Distribitor the basic gap setting for each point is .028. The dwell setting for each point is 29 degrees, combined dwell of both points is 34 to 37 degrees. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #19 by thegreyghost » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:34 pm

So I got a little bit more info to share. I started out to check the rpm's and dwell and compare them to bubba22349 numbers. Once I hooked up the tach I notices I was around 1100 at idle. When I went to turn it down I backed all three idle screw stops out and I couldn't get it to drop below 1000. That's when I noticed that the cam on the carb is actually contacting the Offy manifold on the first two carbs and not allowing them to close completely.

Should i be running a small spacer between the carb and the manifold ?

It did quickly check the combined dwell while I had things hooked up - looked pretty steady at 36.

Image

More to come as I get some free time.

One again, thanks for all the help.

User avatar
powerband
FSP Moderator
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:45 pm
Location: Mid Hudson Valley - \H/

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #20 by powerband » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:02 pm

...spacer may help, or time for a little forming and/or grinding ...

the aluminum Offy adapter needed clearance grinding along with forming/bending linkage where needed on the 250:

Image

Image

Image

haev fun
"Take time to stop and smell... The roadkill..."

User avatar
Econoline
Registered User
Posts: 1293
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:37 pm
Location: Anacortes, WA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #21 by Econoline » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:34 pm

Yeah that's a problem. Like was said, I'd try and get it set up to have the throttle fully closed @ idle on the outside carbs and idle off the center. You can't do that if they are hanging up before they close. Looks like they're are alot of springs and wires in there to try and get it to come down, that can present it's own problems like stiff throttle or foot fatigue cruising on the highway. Do you know what cam is installed in the engine? Your low vacuum is probably b/c you can't cut the airflow through the carbs. It looks like you need longer arms on the carbs to clear the manifold or correct the geometry, at least at the center carb.
It ain't gonna fix itself

Gene 64 2dr
Registered User
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:18 pm
Location: Tyngsboro, MA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #22 by Gene 64 2dr » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:25 pm

One thing you may want to check is the throttle plates edges and how they seat. When I set mine up the outer cabs did not seat well enough and I got enough air through them to mess things up. I touched them up with some very fine emery cloth and was good to go. Also I would get a carb synchronizer, then you will be able to see what’s going on with each carb.
65 Falcon Futura hardtop, FSD’s 250, T5, 4:11’s

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #23 by thegreyghost » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:13 pm

Econoline wrote:Yeah that's a problem. Like was said, I'd try and get it set up to have the throttle fully closed @ idle on the outside carbs and idle off the center. You can't do that if they are hanging up before they close. Looks like they're are alot of springs and wires in there to try and get it to come down, that can present it's own problems like stiff throttle or foot fatigue cruising on the highway. Do you know what cam is installed in the engine? Your low vacuum is probably b/c you can't cut the airflow through the carbs. It looks like you need longer arms on the carbs to clear the manifold or correct the geometry, at least at the center carb.



Agree. Planning on grinding in some relief and setting it up as you suggested .
I'm not positive, but am pretty sure the cam is from Clifford. I think they only offer one for this engine.

.206 @ .050, .474 Int/Exh Valve lift w/ 1.6 rocker ratio, 110 lobe centers

Question - several members have mentioned about using a carb sync tool. If I'm going to purposely set them up differently (idle off center, outers closed) what would I be using the tool for? Sealing of throttle plates?

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4789
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #24 by chad » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:44 pm

AFTER
getting that ctr set, concentrate on that
they're throwin U off (4 now).

(Later U can make up ur own "3 equal length tubes"
or use some bottles or spend on a syncro tool).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #25 by bubba22349 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:06 pm

thegreyghost wrote:So I got a little bit more info to share. I started out to check the rpm's and dwell and compare them to bubba22349 numbers. Once I hooked up the tach I notices I was around 1100 at idle. When I went to turn it down I backed all three idle screw stops out and I couldn't get it to drop below 1000. That's when I noticed that the cam on the carb is actually contacting the Offy manifold on the first two carbs and not allowing them to close completely.

Should i be running a small spacer between the carb and the manifold ?

It did quickly check the combined dwell while I had things hooked up - looked pretty steady at 36.

Image

More to come as I get some free time.

One again, thanks for all the help.


Yes for sure you need to be getting the idle RPM down to a more reasonable rate. Looks like will be an easy fix by using some type of spacer to get your throdle arm clearance so they don't drag or stick. A phenolic spacer if you can find them or some make their own out of plastic cutting boards, another way is the mid to late 1970's carb base gaskets that are made much thicker then the early gaskets and of corse you could stack severial base gaskets too. As far as the carb sync. Tool never use them as I am old school, with the progressive linkage if you had one you could only use it to sync the two end carb's. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Gene 64 2dr
Registered User
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:18 pm
Location: Tyngsboro, MA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #26 by Gene 64 2dr » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:51 pm

I use the sync tool to set the idle on the three carbs together. If you shut down the outer carbs completely you end up with the outer cylinders lean and inner cylinders rich. By balancing the three I find you get a much smoother and lower idle speed.
65 Falcon Futura hardtop, FSD’s 250, T5, 4:11’s

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #27 by bubba22349 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:40 pm

Yeah I am not talking about shuting down or blocking off the end carb's the idle gets tuned on all of them togeather. Being old school I just use a tach / dewel meter for this tuning. But before any type of tuning you would do be it with a sync. tool or any other method you first need to get the throdle blades were they aren't being held to far open or blocked from closing as is clearl indicated in the OP's above picture. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
Econoline
Registered User
Posts: 1293
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:37 pm
Location: Anacortes, WA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #28 by Econoline » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:31 pm

The way I see it you don't need the outside carbs for idling more than a hair maybe, it's no worse than stock. And it's idling after all, you don't need much. I'd assume you'd want to tip in the outside carbs starting around 1000-1500 rpm. Trying to dial that in with all carbs idling sounds like a nightmare to me but I've never had a tri power setup so I'll defer to those with experience with that setup.
It ain't gonna fix itself

Gene 64 2dr
Registered User
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:18 pm
Location: Tyngsboro, MA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #29 by Gene 64 2dr » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:31 pm

Setting up a tri-power setup can drive you nuts.
Steps I’ve taken to get mine working / didn’t run well in the beginning
Blocked off both outer cabs to find vacuum leak / found leak between log and manifold using carb cleaner as a detector
Replaced outer carbs / couldn’t get it to idle right / used carb sync and found that outer carb did close completely / cleaned up throttle plate edges
After finally getting it idling right moved on to jetting the carbs/ trial and error at the track
Installed O2 sensor and fine tuned a/f ratio
In general I think the biggest problem I’ve had is finding vacuum leaks.

Hope this helps some
65 Falcon Futura hardtop, FSD’s 250, T5, 4:11’s

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #30 by thegreyghost » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:49 pm

O.K. Little bit more success tonight. Only had a couple minutes to play around, but got clearance for the carb linkage. Set idle around 850 rpm and checked the dwell. Only had 31 combined dwell - so I might have to adjust that slightly.

Car did stay running in all gears without issue so that's a plus.

Hopefully I'll have some time this weekend to play around a little more.

Once again, thanks for all the help and suggestions.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4789
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

tri-power no longer stalls when put into gear

Post #31 by chad » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:27 pm

keep talkin,
less than 1/4 there ...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: tri-power no longer stalls when put into gear

Post #32 by thegreyghost » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:10 pm

chad wrote:keep talkin,
less than 1/4 there ...


1/4... .son of a..

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4789
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Post #33 by chad » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:03 am

no, no, sorry~
"Bad chad" :nono:
I'm just tryin to stress the wrk on that middle
first'n foremost...
No longer stalls when placed in 'D', count the successes.

Think the harmonic balancer's twiqued out? Rubber inside's slipped, so timing mrks off?
:hmmm:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re:

Post #34 by thegreyghost » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:02 am

chad wrote:no, no, sorry~
"Bad chad" :nono:
I'm just tryin to stress the wrk on that middle
first'n foremost...
No longer stalls when placed in 'D', count the successes.

Think the harmonic balancer's twiqued out? Rubber inside's slipped, so timing mrks off?
:hmmm:


Ha! Not sure on the harmonic balancer yet. It doesn't seem to be drifting, but I need to pull number 1 and see if it's correct. Working most of the weekend, but I'll find some time to squeeze some fun in.

More to come.

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #35 by thegreyghost » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:23 pm

Well, I feel like I took a step or two back right now.

Verified the harmonic dampner is showing the correct timing mark - It is.

Warmed the car up and decided since it's kinda nice out I would see if actually drives. It does, but not very well. Engine is very doggy yet and doesn't respond that well to the throttle. Doesn't cough or fall on it's face, just doesn't pick up and go. Just took it up the road and back returned to the garage and thought I'd check the timing. Now I have all the carbs closed and I can't get it to idle down. Running like 2000 rpm with all the carbs closed. Judging by the smell of my clothes, I'd say it's running very rich, but not sure at this point. If i close the mixture screws on the carb it begins to sputter.

**** I realized today that I always been around 1500 or more on the tach I'm using. I was reading the wrong scale when I thought i was around 850 - 900. I have a different tach i plan on hooking up. I never used this meter before and it seems to be displaying a much higher value than what my ear is detecting. I'm hooked up to the coil, the dual points wouldn't be screwing me up would they ? ****

No idea what's happening now, but after the drive I noticed it coming in and out of gear and realized the transmission is low on fluid. Since i need to go pick some up, figured it was a good time to take a break.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #36 by bubba22349 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:57 am

:hmmm: Wow that idle RPM is way too high if you can't get this down you might need to disconnect the two end carb's or block them off. Start working on your tune up specs by first getting the gap of your spark plugs to .034, then it's important to set the point dwell correctly so that each one is to specs in above post 29 degrees and then check the total dwell is in the correct range of 34 to 37 degrees. Next set your base timing to 12 dergees BTDC. After you have these settings right then your are ready to work on the carb's. Again with this high of an idle RPM there is no way you are going to be able to tune the idle mixture. As a base setting on the carb mixture screws they are set to 3/4 to a max of 1 1/2 turns out. If you haven moved them yet count how many turns it takes to lightly bottom them out. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
JackFish
VIP Member
Posts: 2783
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 7:31 pm
Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #37 by JackFish » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:13 pm

Don't some tachs have a switch for 4, 6 or 8 cylinders?
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
1999 Dodge Ram 2500

User avatar
B RON CO
VIP Member
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:02 pm
Location: Long Island, NY
Contact:

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #38 by B RON CO » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:15 pm

Hi, set up the points first, one or both sets are off. You may as well put a tiny dab of white grease on the distributor cam.
The old saying is " dwell affects timing, but timing does not affect dwell."
Then see if the carbs are not closing.
With the progressive linkage the outer carbs should be closed tight until the center carb linkage stops reach the outer carb throttle shaft lever.
If you work the lever on each outer carb ( engine off) does the throttle snap closed?
Otherwise keep checking for a vacuum leak.
As mentioned, your tach and dwell may have an RPM selector button.
Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4789
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

ign THEN carb

Post #39 by chad » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:33 pm

yes ign tune 1st
then
carb (& again wrk that middle 1st).
As a-new-to-U vehicle U start at the beginning to
ck everything (trust not till verified). The HB is on...
(here's hopin U don't hafts open timing cover). Dizzy
('stabbed') lined up right...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #40 by thegreyghost » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:31 pm

bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: Wow that idle RPM is way too high if you can't get this down you might need to disconnect the two end carb's or block them off. Start working on your tune up specs by first getting the gap of your spark plugs to .034, then it's important to set the point dwell correctly so that each one is to specs in above post 29 degrees and then check the total dwell is in the correct range of 34 to 37 degrees. Next set your base timing to 12 dergees BTDC. After you have these settings right then your are ready to work on the carb's. Again with this high of an idle RPM there is no way you are going to be able to tune the idle mixture. As a base setting on the carb mixture screws they are set to 3/4 to a max of 1 1/2 turns out. If you haven moved them yet count how many turns it takes to lightly bottom them out. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


I'm not sure I believe my antique tach / dwell meter. The engine doesn't sound anywhere close to 2000 rpm. However, whatever it is at, I can't get it any lower and that's a problem. I'm going to take your suggested starting points and reset everything this week. Re-check all my measurements and use a different tach. Starting with the center carb only and going from there.

I was starting to like this old meter, but maybe it's time for a new one.
Image

On a separate note. My # 1 plug looked a little rich when I pulled them.
Image

User avatar
B RON CO
VIP Member
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:02 pm
Location: Long Island, NY
Contact:

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #41 by B RON CO » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:22 pm

Hi, the Heathkit meters are very good. Verify it on another car if you can.
The lowest plug in the picture can be rich or probably oil fouled.
Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #42 by thegreyghost » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:50 pm

B RON CO wrote:Hi, the Heathkit meters are very good. Verify it on another car if you can.
The lowest plug in the picture can be rich or probably oil fouled.
Good luck

I always liked that meter. It worked great for my 83 CJ7 until I changed to a new fuel injected engine. I'm not writing it off yet.

Gene 64 2dr
Registered User
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:18 pm
Location: Tyngsboro, MA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #43 by Gene 64 2dr » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:18 pm

Just to add another thing to the mix. You mentioned smelling gas. I don’t know what carbs you have but I run Webber carbs that won’t tolerate psi much over 3psi without flooding.
65 Falcon Futura hardtop, FSD’s 250, T5, 4:11’s

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #44 by bubba22349 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:13 am

X2 those Heathkit's where a very good quality in their day, I wonder if it might have a battery inside. Do you happen to have the instruction Manual for the meter? Unless you were using a tach / dewell meter as in a professional setting (full time mechanic or tune up shop) it's unlikely it could ever go bad, other then dropping it or other destructive forces. In any case checking it against another meter will tell the tale. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #45 by bubba22349 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:23 am

Plugs look real good except for that first one (if that is the #1 then) might be a sign to check out the front carb's condition like its float level ect. Did you happen to do a compression test on your engine yet? Also if you could do a video of the engine running this could be helpful in the diagnosis of its condistion as well as the actual RPM it's running at. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
Econoline
Registered User
Posts: 1293
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:37 pm
Location: Anacortes, WA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #46 by Econoline » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Low RPM would be the top scale. I have one of those but mine only does low rpm.
It ain't gonna fix itself

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #47 by thegreyghost » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:02 pm

bubba22349 wrote:X2 those Heathkit's where a very good quality in their day, I wonder if it might have a battery inside. Do you happen to have the instruction Manual for the meter? Unless you were using a tach / dewell meter as in a professional setting (full time mechanic or tune up shop) it's unlikely it could ever go bad, other then dropping it or other destructive forces. In any case checking it against another meter will tell the tale. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: edited


I did find the manual and basically what it says is " make sure you don't mix up the high and low scales dumbass"

Which is exactly what I did. Actual RPM was more like 680 - which i would believe based on what I was hearing.

I still feel like I should be able to bring it to a stall by backing off the idle screws, but on a high note, it still didn't stall in gear.

At any rate, video coming up tomorrow or as soon as I can get some more free time. Seems to be at a premium right now.

Help and support has been fantastic. Thank you all!

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 4789
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

linkage 2 one carb OK?

Post #48 by chad » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:22 pm

gettin close now. That's bout right 4 an auto (if is wrkin on that 1 carb).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9090
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #49 by bubba22349 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:24 pm

Thegrayghost, that is excellent news 680 RPM is at least close to the ball park and you can work from there. Still work at doing the first steps of plug gap, the correct dwell, and base timing before working on the carb settings. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
thegreyghost
Registered User
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: Central PA

Re: Offy tri-power stalls when in gear

Post #50 by thegreyghost » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:19 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Thegrayghost, that is excellent news 680 RPM is at least close to the ball park and you can work from there. Still work at doing the first steps of plug gap, the correct dwell, and base timing before working on the carb settings. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:


These were taken a couple days ago before I realized the carb linkage was hanging up. Probably more like 1000 rpm.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hx9uMHOw_rZOxy1RgXxSBBfYlcmWnuOS/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iCUtnjzOgkvAkf5eLI5n5yzXULIDEUOU/view?usp=sharing

Hopefully these links work.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests