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Zetec

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CoupeBoy
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Zetec

Post #1 by CoupeBoy » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:28 pm

I have a sickness, I've tried to warn y'all in other posts...
This time I bought a Zetec i4 with automatic transmission.
I have no idea what year it is (positively) or what it came out of.
The oil has a nice golden color and is in the 'safe' zone on the dipstick.
The transmission fluid has a nice red tint to it and smells right.
The guy I bought it from, 'won' it in a storage locker auction.
I paid less than it would cost to get the alternator from a U-pull-it...
I have NO need for this motor/trans, I have no idea what I am going to do with it.
Image
Image
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Its got all the markings and signs of being a wrecking yard removal, bolt cutter cramped wires and hoses.
Oxy/Ace torched CV shafts.
Image
Image

yesterday I had no idea that today I'd own a zetec... so I spent a few moments (hours) reading about them

First I wanted to know what I was working with, wikipedia for some background
Ford Zeta engine 2.0l zetec-e section -- wikipedia
Says I'm dealing with a motor that is roughly 130hp/130tq (stock)

And then I wanted to know if there were any options to use one of these as a RWD.

It turns out that the zetec has the same bellhousing pattern as the 2.3L Lima motors

I started on here, because I thought Jack had done something with one, and he had, searches here lead me to...
Zetec Powered MGB Build Thread -- Focus Forum
Image
There is a video of it running at the bottom of page 19.

Looks like I need to start looking for stand alone ignition solutions and working on a carburetor intake manifold while keeping my eyes open for something suitable to put it in.
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

gus91326
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Re: Zetec

Post #2 by gus91326 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:42 pm

That's pretty damn cool!

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Re: Zetec

Post #3 by bubba22349 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:53 pm

My mom had a little Focus 4 door sedan that had that engine in it. About a 1998 if I remember right and was front wheel drive. Was a great runner and real good on gas. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #4 by CoupeBoy » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:13 pm

Since I bought it condition unknown I'd like to test a few things, namely compression and cranking oil pressure.
I have no desire to deal with the automatic, but I need a way to spin a starter. It's hard to keep from ripping off all the emissions and efi stuff so I am only dealing with and storing the long block. At some point I'll email/PM Jack to see if his son Brian has a CNC file for the intake he made. If not it wouldn't be that hard to recreate the necessary file from the measurements they posted in their thread.

At 130hp/130tq it's not a terrible motor for its size, I have a 4speed from behind a 2.3 out of a Mustang 2 at dads house.
I bet with a carb, it would move something the size of a 63 Falcon fairly well (when comparing it to a stock 144 or 170)

Again, I have no need for this motor, but my hoarding tendencies said for the price, I NEEDED to pick it up. You know, for educational value.

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Re: Zetec

Post #5 by bubba22349 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:27 pm

:bang: I remembered wrong it was a 1996 Ford Contour 4 door sedan, those engines were used in lots of little cars like the last Capri's too. Nothing wrong with some Hoarding if you have the room. I always though it was a great little engine and wondered about swapping one into a Model A Ford pickup. Would be good in a little Ranger pickup or maybe a Pinto, Mustang II. Good luck :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #6 by CoupeBoy » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:46 pm

I could probably talk my brother out of his '74 m2 ghia, it currently has a 2.8l/4spd.
Dad has a 1990 Mustang with a non-running 2.3l sitting in the yard.
I thought a 80-early 90's 2wd Ranger with a manual would be perfect for daily driving.
I'll be keeping my eyes open for possibilities.

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Re: Zetec

Post #7 by MechRick » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:11 am

CoupeBoy wrote:It turns out that the zetec has the same bellhousing pattern as the 2.3L Lima motors


It's not an exact match. The top two bolt holes on the Lima are higher up, and the dowels are a different size. Early Limas had both patterns on the block.

There are T5 bellhousings that match the Zetec. In the early eighties the predecessor to the T5 (SR4) had the correct bell for use with the German 2.0L.

Wonder if there is enough room on the Zetec block to drill the top holes?
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #8 by CoupeBoy » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:08 pm

In the MGB thread I posted a link to they talked about that issue.
Zetec Powered MGB Build Thread -- MustangSix -- Page 13 wrote:I voted for a 4.0 Rover, but was outvoted by the owner! I personally like the B-series Austin engine. Not the most powerful, but it is a good performer in such a lightweight car. It only needs a little help with compression and intake to make it more lively, but Zetec is the path we are on now and I think its going to work out great.

The 2.3 bellhousing needs a little work to make it usable, but the alignment dowels are in the correct location along with one other bolt hole, so you have a good start.

To use the bell housing:

1. We are using a 1.9 Escort flywheel with a 2.3 Mustang clutch and pressure plate. Same diameter, but the clutch height matches the stock Mustang bell clutch release mechanism (which we decided not to use). The Escort 1.9 flywheel is several lbs lighter than a Zetec as well. Drill the flywheel bolt holes from 10mm to 11mm (7/16) and use the 11mm Zetec flywheel bolts. Ditching the Zetec flywheel means you will have to move the crank position sensor and add a 36-1 toothed wheel for the ignition pickup. It might be possible to use the zetec flywheel with the Mustang 2.3 T5 clutch disc but I haven't measured that combo. If that works you don't need to move the crank sensor.

2. You will need the sheet metal block plate that fits the 2.3 bellhousing. It is needed to help index the starter position. Trim it to clear the Zetec crank seal retainer.

3. Fabricate some stepped dowels. The locating dowel diameter on the Zetec is .501 inches; the 2.3 dowels are .601 inches. Make them about an inch long, total. Drill a 10mm diameter thru hole and bevel the ends to help inserting them. This is a quick job on the lathe; steel or aluminum will work. Tap the small end into the block.

4. You need to add at least one more mounting hole to the bell, preferably two. There are two ways to do this. You can either drill the block to match the top holes in the bell, or you can weld a little additional material to the bell to pick up the Zetec holes. The Zetec pattern is already in the block plate for some reason so you have a template to guide you. We chose to weld because the top two holes would have come very close to the back two head studs. I would rather leave the material there and not risk drilling into the stud.

5. The stock Mustang 2.3 uses a cable clutch. If you keep the stock release arm you could adapt an external slave cylinder. We are going to use a Chevy LS1 hydraulic slave that I'm adapting to the bearing retainer and matches well to the stock 3/4" master.

6. The T-5 transmission shaft for a V8 trans is a tad too short to work properly. It barely engages the pilot bearing. You will need:

a. a longer custom pilot bearing (not hard to make from oilite bronze), or
b. use the 4cyl t5 trans (bad first gear ratio), or
c. modify a V6 input shaft (good first gear, simple machining). The V6 shaft has to be shortened by .400 inches and the snout diameter needs to be turned down to .590 inches to fit the Zetec pilot.

7. The "ears" on the Zetec pan have to be sawed off to make room for the 2.3 starter. There's a lot of aluminum on the rear of the pan that's not needed so all of it can be taken off. We used a large bandsaw, but a sawzall or cutoff wheel works too.

If all this sounds like a lot of work, frankly, it is. This is not a simple bolt on, but the parts are very adaptable with some welding and machining. If you don't have all this capability available like we do, it may actually be better to suck it up and buy the expensive ($500) bell from Quads or D&D or TSI. You could end up paying someone way more than that to do all the work.

So some easy stuff - retaining the MG gauges.

1. The oil pressure gauge is mechanical. We just screwed an AN3 to 1/4" NPT adapter into the block and will run a line to the gauge oil line.

2. On our late model the water temp gauge is electrical. We tapped a spot for the MG sender on the LS1 water outlet adapter. The Zetec sender location gets blocked by a 10mm bolt and washer.

3. The MG tach can be driven by the Zetec coil outputs. See the Megasquirt site for the EDIS tach adapter. It's two zener diodes with an output that will feed the original tach pickup wire.

4. The speedo cable just screws into the trans output. A stock T5 will need a 23 tooth driven gear to work with the stock 3.901 rear end. I think we will swap the 8-tooth drive gear for a 6- or 7-tooth gear in order to use a more durable 18 or 19 tooth driven gear.

5. No changes to the fuel gauge or the clock, obviously.

We'll get more photos posted up soon to show what all this stuff looks like.
And again
Zetec Powered MGB Build Thread -- MustangSix -- Page 24 wrote:I needed to reduce the length, the diameter, and remove some of the splined areas so I went to three different machine shops (all friends of mine) and they were not equipped to handle a shaft of that shape. It was easy enough to center the pilot end, but getting hold of the shaft to turn it was difficult. It was simply in the too-hard category for their machines and I didn't feel like going to other shops. In the end I simply used a shorter V8 input shaft and turned a longer custom pilot bushing out of oilite to fit the bigger pilot diameter of the V8 shaft.

Actually, a simpler, cheaper solution for a 3.8 trans would have been to just make a 5/8" spacer to go between the bell and the transmission to accommodate the extra length. Just need to pin it or index it to the center hole so that the trans is centered and you would still need to bore the pilot bushing to .672".

I installed a new input shaft bearing because the new V8 shaft didn't have one. Put the shaft in the freezer, bearing in the oven and it just drops on.

You don't need to tear the tranny down. When you remove the input shaft retainer you can then rotate the input shaft to a clearance cutout and pull it straight out. There are needle bearings between the input and the cluster as well as a shim for the input bearing. If you drop a needle bearing into the case, THEN you have to tear it down. Use a good sealer like Right Stuff to put the retainer back on. No silicone.

A 2.3 Mustang or T-bird transmission would be a bolt in. It is the right length and has the right pilot diameter. The downside is the 3.97 or 4.01 first gear coupled to the stock 3.909 MG rear. It just comes out too short for my liking, though it's no worse than first gear in a six speed Miata.

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Re: Zetec

Post #9 by CoupeBoy » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:45 pm

Another 2.3L bellhousing/T5 thread
Zetec RWD conversion -- FocusFanatics.com
Image

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Re: Zetec

Post #10 by MechRick » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:30 pm

Interesting. I think it would almost pay to offer modified bells to the public. The Locost 7 crowd likes the Zetec.

I remember the first ones I saw, while working for a Ford dealer in the 90's. Debut in the States in the Contour. Good engine in a bad car. I had to build one from scratch in '95 because short blocks weren't available from Ford yet...

Another possible trans option is the TK5 from the Ranger. Removable bell, hydraulic clutch and slightly better ratios.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #11 by thesameguy » Wed May 04, 2016 2:03 pm

A lot of those parts exist... just not here.

Check these guys out:

http://www.rwdmotorsport.com/

and

http://danstengineering.co.uk/index.php ... ommon/home

That and a Megajolt setup and you're set.

I have a Duratec 2.0l in the garage from an '05 Focus that I am someday going to put into the Falcon... ITBs & bike carbs + Megajolt + T5 bellhousing. YEAH!

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Re: Zetec

Post #12 by thesameguy » Wed May 04, 2016 2:08 pm


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Re: Zetec

Post #13 by CoupeBoy » Wed May 04, 2016 2:27 pm

Funny you should mention a falcon.
I looked at this one last weekend.
image.jpeg

It's an i6/auto.

The owner is a little hard to track down.
But to get it drivable faster, I am going to pull the auto out of an old Bobcat that dad has in his trees.

Dad also claims to have a 5speed out of a 2.3l 2wd ranger "somewhere".
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Zetec

Post #14 by thesameguy » Wed May 04, 2016 3:10 pm

They say art is dead, but I like the way whoever that was molded all that rust into a Ford shape. Well done.

;)

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Re: Zetec

Post #15 by CoupeBoy » Wed May 04, 2016 5:14 pm

You think that's impressive.. Last weekend I went on a 2 day bender of yard crawling at a few places near my Dad's house.
Because I don't want any of you to have to endure what I did..... Take a peek at the pictures.

Tetnus -- FordSix Forum -- Eye Candy Section
Image
Image

enjoy!
-ron

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Re: Zetec

Post #16 by CoupeBoy » Wed May 04, 2016 6:11 pm

thesameguy wrote:A lot of those parts exist... just not here.

Check these guys out:

http://www.rwdmotorsport.com/

and

http://danstengineering.co.uk/index.php ... ommon/home

That and a Megajolt setup and you're set.

I have a Duratec 2.0l in the garage from an '05 Focus that I am someday going to put into the Falcon... ITBs & bike carbs + Megajolt + T5 bellhousing. YEAH!
I'll admit that I am very i4 illiterate, I've never had a reason to know much about them. But from reading that second link, I found this..
Ford 1.6 1.8 2.0 ZETEC to Crossflow Inlet Manifold Adapter Plate £49.99
Image
10mm thick 5053 Aluminium CNC WATERJET cut inlet manifold adapter plate to suit the Ford 1.6/1.8/2.0 Zetec engine. This plate/stud arrangement allows the fitment of a 1300/1600 XFLOW manifold onto the popular 1.6/1.8/2.0 Zetec E engine. The kit consists of:
A quick Google search turns up this thread that claims I have a 2.0L intake
Intake identification -- FordPinto.com Forum
Part number 71HF-9425-HB/JB

So my question is.. will this be close enough? (I'm thinking not, since I see references to CVH and Pinto motors separately)
This motor happens to be sitting in Dad's scrap pile..
Image
Image

Another interesting find on that same webpage...
Ford Zetec E 37mm Bike Carburettor Starter Kit £350.00
danST Engineering are pleased to be able to offer this complete bolt on kit for the Ford Zetec E engine (1.6/1.8/2.0 blacktop/silvertop). The package consists of the following:



1x TIG welded danST Engineering Aluminium inlet Manifold

1x Set of 37mm Keihin or Mikuni Carburettors

1x danST Engineering Carb Fitting Kit (4x Fluoro lined silicone hoses and 8x stainless mikalor clamps) in red, blue or black

1 x danST Heavy Duty 1mm Thick Novus Inlet Gasket


FWIW, one of my coworkers owns/drives this and he let me take it out for a spin yesterday.
Image
Image
Looks familiar
Image

If I'm reading the internet correctly, this car should weigh about 400lbs more than a 1960/61 2dr Falcon.
The performance was limp compared to what I normally drive ('05 F250 6.0L PSD, '12 Tahoe 5.3L, '68 Mustang 289) but what I would expect from a motor that size.
for normal town driving it was adequate to keep up with traffic, 0-75 took about 25 seconds. In its stock form/vehicle, I've read claims of 30-32MPG.

Classic Inlines rates the stock 144 at 90hp/138tq, which compares favorably to the stock EFI 2.0L 130hp/130tq, the 2.0 with minor upgrades should be a good fit for a Falcon.

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Re: Zetec

Post #17 by thesameguy » Wed May 04, 2016 7:31 pm

The Zetec with a '60s-era 2-speed or a 3-speed would be *rough* - the six's low torque handles tall gears without issue. But I'd bet with the same modern-er transmission the Zetec is going leave the six behind. A stock Focus Zetec will definitely out-pull even a 200ci Falcon... I've had both... at the same time. :) Also bear in mind the Zetec weighs around 350lbs, so putting that Zetec in your Falcon is going to shave *another* 150-200lbs off the car. 130hp Zetec in a, what, 2200lb Falcon is going to be snappy!

I'd shoot an email over to Dansten Engineering - they have been very helpful getting my Duratec wishlist together and have a good reputation with the Locost people. I suspect they'll be able to get you sorted.

That said, I think that flange will work, but it's not what you want. That flange lets you put the dual Weber crossflow intake from an old 1300cc motor onto your new Zetec. That's great if you've got one of those rare, expensive manifolds and you want your Locost or Escort to look right, but I think you have better options on a Zetec in a Falcon.

http://www.burtonpower.com/inlet-manifo ... 4286b.html

or

http://quad4rods.com/index.php?page=sho ... mid=100041

You could also consider just injecting it. You could talk to these guys:

http://www.fswerks.com/collections/focu ... programmer

Or chat up diyefi - I am pretty sure they have a Megasquirt kit to plop onto a Zetec. :)

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Re: Zetec

Post #18 by MechRick » Wed May 04, 2016 8:11 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:The performance was limp compared to what I normally drive


Try one in an Escort ZX2. Those would run a 15.50 quarter mile time stock.

The only thing I didn't like about them is the odd noises they made when revved up.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #19 by CoupeBoy » Thu May 05, 2016 1:10 pm

thesameguy wrote:That said, I think that flange will work, but it's not what you want. That flange lets you put the dual Weber crossflow intake from an old 1300cc motor onto your new Zetec. That's great if you've got one of those rare, expensive manifolds and you want your Locost or Escort to look right, but I think you have better options on a Zetec in a Falcon.
I'm going to pull that intake from the 2.0 in dad's scrap pile. From my rough eyeballing it looks like the intake bolt spacing is the same as the Burton adapter I posted above. I could probably make my own adapter plate out of 3/8" aluminum, drill, cut, grind, tap. It would be an easy way to get this motor running on a single carb and upgrade to a more complex induction system later. For that matter, I could probably make my own single carb intake with enough time. Any single carb recommendation? (CFM rating)

In regards to this one that you posted that uses DCOE 45's
Inlet manifold Ford Zetec E 2x45DCOE 93mm £160.82
(it should be worth noting that as of the time of this writing, $1.45 US = £1)
That intake would cost $233 (plus shipping and other unknown fees)
And I googled DCOE 45, they are at least $300 EACH and that intake requires 2, bringing this to at minimum $850 induction only solution.
Not very budget friendly for a cheapskate like me.

On to the next one.

Intake Manifold (ZEDCOE) -- Quads4Rods $ $378.13 plus $23 shipping.
Again with a pair of DCOE carbs, this would be just over $1000.00, again for induction alone. (mi no gusta)
thesameguy wrote:You could also consider just injecting it. You could talk to these guys:

http://www.fswerks.com/collections/focu ... programmer
This could be interesting, the programmer is usually $400, however there is a guy on my local craigslist that recently posted one for sale $100, but it would have to be sent in to be 'unmarried' which is another $150. When I first saw it I was thinking about picking it up for my Ford 6.0 Powerstroke because in stock form my 6.0 is OK, no complaints. But I decided to wait a while and buy a Gryphon from PowerHungryPerformance. I'm going with a Fuel Injection Control Module (FICM) programmer over an ECM programmer because starting in 2004 Ford detuned the 6.0 to reduce cylinder pressure and therefore warranty claims against head gasket, most of the control for the injectors comes from the FICM, a person like me can reflash the FICM and gain up to 100hp using a stock ECM tune, they recommend Atlas40 for everybody, but EGT gauge for anybody towing a lot using the Atlas80 or higher. Some guys buy ECM programmers ,like the SCT x4, only to be unimpressed when their Looney Tune (yes its a real thing, you can get yours HERE) doesn't quite make the power they expected because Ford limited the FICM.

I have NO EFI ECM for the Zetec, so a programmer is only a partial solution to a bigger problem. And on this motor the EFI has its own issues that I'll bring up in a moment.
thesameguy wrote:Or chat up diyefi - I am pretty sure they have a Megasquirt kit to plop onto a Zetec. :)
Megasquirt, carte blanche EFI, since I have neither the time nor inclination to solder up my own kit, I will only be looking at fully assembled units.
Megasquirt 1 DIYAutotune.com $269 with a v2.2
MegaSquirt 1
MegaSquirt 1 (MS1) offers a cost effective entry level to the aftermarket ECU market. Coupled with an EDIS module, the MegaSquirt 1 V2.2 offered excellent value for money mappable spark and fuel. For direct coil control (non-EDIS) the MegaSquirt 1 V3.0 is still a cheap and simple ECU. As expected MegaSquirt 1 lacks many of the features of the newer ECUs. Few OEM wheel patterns are supported, temperature sensor and wideband calibration is more tricky and there are fewer diagnostics. All features require DIY modifications to the circuit board.

Fully assembled.
It is those "features" that require DIY modification to the circuit board that concern me.

Moving on to
MegaSquirt-II EMS System – SMD PCB3.57 Assembled ECU $445
MegaSquirt 2 (MS2) is the second generation of MegaSquirt Engine Management Systems, targeting engines with semi-sequential or batch-fire fuelling and wasted spark ignition. The MegaSquirt 2 shares the same software as the MicroSquirt but most options will require hardware customization. The software is ready to support a wide variety of engines out of the box, with the ability to control anything with one to eight cylinders with batch fire fuel injection and up to four channels of logic ignition. Over 40 different ignition modes are supported, from mainstream applications like the GM LS1, Ford Zetec, Bosch Motronic, and Chrysler Gen III Hemis to unusual modes like Renix Jeeps and the Suzuki Swift GTI.
The MS2 seem to really hit the nail on the head.

They also have the
MegaSquirt-III EMS System with MS3X Expansion V3.57 – Assembled Unit $659 (less without the expansion board)
And
MS3-Pro Standalone ECU with 8′ Wiring Harness $1199

None of these address the high pressure fuel delivery tank to TB(s).
The motor I bought has a nickel sized hole in the plastic intake manifold, and I really don't want to open the hood and see all the Ford factory EFI components.
But if I keep EFI on the motor, there are other NON-stock options.

For example, the MS2 ($445) used with
Ford Zetec E Inlet Manifold for CBR1100 Blackbird Carburettors £166.66 ($241.66 US)
And then pickup off eBay a set of cheap CBR1100 throttle bodies like these...
04-05 Honda CBR 1000RR throttle bodies fuel body injector 1000 RR OEM 2004 2005 $29.99 (free shipping)

I'd be looking at Fuel and spark control with IR EFI for about $700

There are still places that I could save a few more dollars, for example if I made my own manifold, I'd be willing to bet I could get it done (although not as pretty) for under $60 (us)
And since I know nothing about motorcycle EFI, I'd want to do some research to see if the CBR1000RR wiring harness/fuelpump/ECM had the capabilities to be reprogrammed, and if so, how much are they selling for along with the required tools for modifications.

But it would have to be competitive with the Burton offering that I posted earlier
Ford Zetec E 37mm Bike Carburettor Starter Kit Price: £350.00 ($507.50 US)
And I'd also need an ignition controller, the one that comes up the most is the MegaJoltjr
Megajolt/E -- autosportlabs.com roughly $150
Total for carbs and ignition, $657..

With these carbs, I'm sure I could use the stock fuel pump, but I'd have to add a pressure regulator to make sure it stays at an acceptable pressure.

Keep in mind that these are all musing with no real end date, so I am under no pressure to actually buy any of this, I've got 5 driveable cars at my house for 2 drivers..
Ideally I will get this motor onto a 5speed manual transmission. Anything I do in-between is either a stop gap, or just me killing time to see how it works, I'd never hook the zetec up to a stock Ford-O-matic, but I would be interested in seeing what a C4/C3/C5 would do behind it, whatever is in that Bobcat from behind the 2.3L. The transmission is free to me, which reminds me, I may want to snag the rearend and redrill it to 4 on 4.5, it *should* be an 8".

Now that I think about it, there is another '74 Mustang II out back with a 2.3L/manual, the car is blue and has a HUGE tree branch across the top of it. I'd think that should be a 4 speed, and another 8".

And lastly, I went searching on my local Craigslist yesterday and found that within 300 miles of where I am sitting I could pickup a Focus in the correct age range (1999-2004) anywhere from $200-400 in various states of disrepair. But from one of them, I could salvage all the wiring harness, a new intake manifold and ECM... I'm always keeping my eye and options open.

An Escort ZX2, hopefully that was the one with the Zetec 2.0 (170hp) version..
This is the video I made merging onto i29 with a posted speed of 75mph, from a stop.
I held the skinny pedal to the floor going down hill as I merged with traffic.
https://youtu.be/Z0prMmfEJ10

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Re: Zetec

Post #20 by thesameguy » Thu May 05, 2016 1:58 pm

The Escort ZX2 had the same 130hp Zetec as the Focus ZX3, but weighed something like 100lbs less and had substantially shorter gearing. It was definitely quicker by most measures, but suffered a little on fuel economy due to higher revs per mph. The Focus was *clearly* the sharper handler! :)

*All* of those running options sound great. I had originally planned in injecting my Duratec, but none of those programmers have sufficient access to the emissions systems in the ECM I have, so I'd be faced with buying a different ECM & fabricating a wiring harness to make it work right, which as you point out costs money. That's what got me onto ITBs & bike carbs - it's about the same money as fuel injection, possibly a little cheaper, and I think would look & sound super under the hood. ;) The six in the car right now is already running on Megajolt, so I'm covered there either way. ITBs & a coil pack seems like a nice picture under the hood. ;)

It is crazy how expensive carbs are these days - you can buy a complete Megasquirt package for the price of a pair of DCOEs! Fortunately bike carbs are still cheap and pretty easy to source. They have a big following in the UK, but it seems a lot of people don't like them here. There are certain problems that are hard to address - throttle response, especially off-idle is the big one. For example, motorcycle carbs often don't have accelerator pumps. On a light motorcycle it's not much of an issue, but from what I've read they can have a gnarly stumble with cars. I'm sure it's ultimately all addressable, but I guess saving money on the carbs comes with the cost of additional, um, craftsmanship. :)

I have never driven or even seen in person a car with bike carbs so I have no firsthand experience. None of this stuff may affect a 2200lb Falcon with four carbs! It sure seems like something interesting to do, and I'm eager to try. Unfortunately, I'm a) really hung up on the transmission I'm going to use and b) I can't weld so getting the damn thing in the car in the first place is a major logistical challenge. ;)

Very excited to watch your project and help if I can!

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Re: Zetec

Post #21 by CoupeBoy » Thu May 05, 2016 5:28 pm

I planned on re-reading your EDIS install thread, you made it look easy enough for a guy like me to figure it out.
I've got minimal fabrication skills, but I have no doubt that I'll be able to create the motor and transmission mounts necessary to install the powertrain.

It could be just me, but I think the main reasons that people don't like the motorcycle carbs is the perceived complexity..
Multiple carb mounts
"complicated" linkage
Carburator sync
Sizing a set of carburators for IR performance (I don't even know how you rate them for CFM)

personally I worry that one out of 4 carbs may suffer individual issues and leave a single cylinder exposed to unpleasant fuel mixture, how would I ever know until its too late?

So now that we know I have marginal skills and I'm afraid of multiple carbs..
I've been working on projects and amassing equipment.
I've got a grinder/cut off wheel, a 90amp flux MIG, and I'm buying a cheap chinese plasma from the neighbor (Lotos Cut50D), I also have a 20t press that I'm working on building a brake for, and I recently bought a HF 40lb sandblast cabinet and an Eastwood dual voltage powdercoat gun, with an old oven to cook parts.

For the flange there are a couple options, I could build a 1 off (cut/grind/weld/drill/tap/weld) its been done for generations, just pick an induction (carb style) and forge forward.
If I had dimensions for bolts/ports, I know a guy I could tap to crank out a CNC/DXF/DWG file and have one or more plasma or laser cut, maybe sell a couple to generate some project funds.

I've been working on projects and amassing equipment.
I've got a grinder/cut off wheel, a 90amp flux MIG, and I'm buying a cheap chinese plasma from the neighbor (Lotos Cut50D), I also have a 20t press that I'm working on building a brake for, and I recently bought a HF 40lb sandblast cabinet and an Eastwood dual voltage powdercoat gun, with an old oven to cook parts.

I'm pretty good at measuring for precision and knowing when to apply it and when it doesn't matter.
For my skidsteer engine swap I needed a bellhousing plate
Case 1830 Motor swap -- FordSix Forum
I made it out of 1/4" steel, the bellhousing and starter bolts lined up perfectly, the flywheel and starter snout holes are 'good enough'
Image

I'll be reading as many motorcycle carb intake threads as I can find, like this.. (carb and IR EFI)
HOW TO FIT A ZETEC - Part 1 - Fuel System -- TurboSport.co.uk

I've wanted to try making my own intake since I helped get the parts together for clintonvillian to build his 300 MPFI manny
Started on headers and efi intake today! -- FordSix Forum
The intake, header, and throttle body flanges were cut here at work out of 3/8" steel, but we can't cut aluminum (yet) but there is a laser shop here in town that can.
Image
Image

I'd like to try making one out of round stock and another out of formed steel, utilizing a wooden buck and hammering the metal over it.
Since I don't have a permanent car to put it in, I have a couple other for fitting it into. I have a '65 Mustang shell (very rusty, but the engine bay is good)
Image
Any mounts I make for the engine *should* work for a Mustang. I've been meaning to make this car mobile on its own power, but I always thought I'd use the spare 200/C4 that I have sitting on my shop floor out of a '67 Mustang, but since this will eventually be a dedicated project/fun car, I may as well, it isn't doing anything else. And in regards to performance it should be very close to a Falcon, especially since its gutted.

As I was getting ready to finish this post, I realized that the blue Mustang 2 parked in Dad's trees had a running 2.3l, that carb should be a decent starting point for a 2.0L... I may have to go swipe that car.. If it does still run, I could even possibly install the 2.3L then change it out for the zetec.

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Re: Zetec

Post #22 by thesameguy » Fri May 06, 2016 1:38 pm

I am pretty sure one of those places I linked to has plates for the Zetec to facilitate mounting longitudinally - maybe or maybe not worth ordering, but maybe something worth looking at for inspiration. ;)

I think the non-turbo Limas were only rated at 80 or 90hp, probably way too low to properly run a Zetec. I guess it would at least be mobile, though! :)

This thread is really inspirational (aspirational?) for me. I am knee-deep in house updates right now, but I think there's a light at the end of the tunnel. If I'm not totally broke when it's done I think I'm going to pick up a decent/cheap welder and start practicing. The electrical work isn't all that daunting, but actually getting an engine & transmission installed is a major obstacle for me. I have zero fabrication experience - historically I just hand a cardboard model (and some dough) to someone who sorts out the details. ;)

For my project, the transmission is a major hangup. Bubba (in a random thread) turned me onto a controller that can run a 4R/5R55 transmission so I can stick with an autobox and not hack up the floor. Buuut a manual would be a lot more fun. A 6-speed from a Miata, for example. But then I'm figuring out a clutch and shifter linkage. Nothing is easy. ;)

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Re: Zetec

Post #23 by CoupeBoy » Fri May 06, 2016 6:20 pm

This may make you feel better about a cheap welder, I bought my Harbor Freight 90amp flux core welder when it was on sale for $82 just over a year ago.
I designed and built custom 144/170/200/250 motor mounts to allow easier installation of 250 motors.
Small Six Motor Mount Dimensions -- FordSix Forum
You can see welds I did with them, and what the magic use of a grinder can make it look like when done.
Starting point
Image
welded
Image
ground flat
Image
And painted
Image
I'm not really stuck on the transmission issue as much, I'm being cheap and I *will* play with the ones I have, and if I ever get to a point that what I haven isn't good enough, I'll start shopping. I have looked at aftermarket transmission controllers for my '75 F250 CrewCab 4x4, I'd like to put in an E4OD behind a carbed motor. Bauman makes one... (but I don't *need* one yet)

I've been house project swamped before, I've been yard project swamped before, I've had periods when it was just too cold outside to even think about working on things.
This spring I pulled up the carpet in the basement and laid down laminate (below grade, had to be laminate, engineered, or tile) way back in 2006 I replaced 1100sqft of carpet with 3/4" x 3.5"wide solid maple, and built a staircase with banister, I've replaced every faucet, sink, and toilet in my house at least once in the 11 years we've been there, painted a couple rooms a few times, every room at least once.

Plus I still have my ongoing projects ('63.5 Falcon Convert, '71 Airstream remodel -- flooring will be here Monday 5/9, '75 F250 crew cab 4x4) None of it NEEDS to get done, and there are times when I just need a break from one project so I change gears.

Two nights ago, I built a 14ft x 36" deep above ground pool in the back yard.

Back on the Zetec front... today I spent a few minutes looking up custom tuners for Honda CB1100's to be used with stock equipment.
I found this one on eBay
2013 Honda CB1100 - Dynatek - DFE-16-040 - Fusion EFI Fuel & Ignition Controller -- eBay $319.90 (the ad lies)
I looked up their webpage
Dynatek Fusion EFI -- dynaonline.com
It had a lot of features, so I called them..
Dynatek Contact Us
I told them what I wanted to do and asked if their product could help me get a throttle body setup designed for a 1.1L motor working on a 2.0L motor, I got transferred to an actual engineer.
He said that their product is designed to piggy back into the stock Honda wiring harness and requires the stock ECM. (I figured as much)
He didn't know if the system could be modified enough to get the injectors to spray enough fuel for a motor twice the size as it was originally designed for.
He said I will have problems getting an initial fuel map that works, they don't have one.
And here is where the eBay ad lies..

The tuner designed for anything with more than 2 cyclinders WILL NOT control ignition

Some quick ebay searching and i couldn't find a Honda ECM listed anywhere, I found only 1 wiring harness ($150) I don't know if I can assume that wiring harness included the ECM or not, I found some other Honda ECMs for different years/sizes they were roughly $100. So figure about $300 to get all the stock Honda wiring harness/ecm/throttle bodies, and then another $320 for the programmer, and I'd still need to make/buy a manifold (I said I could make one for $60) I would be looking at about $680 with this option and I still need to figure out ignition (megajolt $150) and how to make enough fuel pressure, I did see some Honda in-tank pumps for under $40.

The Burton carb starter kit is still about $500 (manifold/carbs) and I'd need megajolt $150
Basically I'm using that as my baseline, any solution that costs more than $650 will be given the stink eye.

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Re: Zetec

Post #24 by thesameguy » Fri May 06, 2016 7:47 pm

That does make me feel better about a cheap welder! Maybe I'll pick one up and just get to practicing if nothing else. :)

Based on my looking, the Burton & Megajolt is the baseline, but a $350 MicroSquirt from DIYAUTOTUNE and a Megajolt setup isn't far off - maybe $50 all said and done. Speaking of, Microsquirt will control an E4OD. :)

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Re: Zetec

Post #25 by CoupeBoy » Mon May 09, 2016 12:37 pm

Sidebar from Zetec chatter...somewhere, I don't remember where, I did a writeup on the el'cheap-o HF 90Amp MIG. I thought it was here in the Eye Candy section, but be danged if I can find it.
It isn't a perfect machine, but it has its uses.

After I bought my HF 90amp, the first thing I did was take out the stock .030 HF wire and I bought a set of gun tips for .035 wire, then I went to Home Depot and bought a spool of their .035 flux core wire.
And then I grabbed a bunch of scrap steel from the drop bins at work and started figuring out what I don't know.
And while I didn't know much.. practice helps.

My first weld with the HF wire, I should have beveled the mating edges.
Tons of splatter BB's
Image
I ground it down and off.
Image
And I tried some 1/4" at 90°
Image
To me, the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ) seems sufficient for at least 1/4"

Image
My skills in tight corners and ill fitting pieces of metal need work.

Image
Eventually I started figuring things out, more 1/4", this time with a bevel
Image
Tack welds looked good.
Image
So I finished welding it up in a solid bead, not a straight bead..
Image
Looks good on the bottom side to me.
Image

Recently I replaced the leaf springs on my '75 F250, I needed a new set of rear leaves. None of my jackstands were remotely close to being able to hold the frame up while I worked on the suspension. So I made this.
Image
I'm still working on the tight spaces welding technique, but the easy outside ones are (IMHO) looking pretty good.
Image
I'm still not the best welder in the world, but practice has certainly helped.

There are still splatter BB's, but they are fewer. My coworkers recommended that I start using a welding spray that is designed to reduce the BBs from sticking.
There are a few upgrades to the HF90amp that are supposed make them better, from what I've read, doing them to a cheap welder makes it perform like less of a cheap welder, but the consensus is that if you are willing to spend $100 on the welder and another 30-60 upgrading it, you should just spend the additional amount at the beginning to get a little nicer welder. I got mine cheap enough and I'm out of warranty now, so I'll start looking into those upgrades (DC rectifier, better power source for the spool feed motor -- it does fluctuate with usage, capacitors to smooth out any voltage spikes.

Someday I'll buy a gas shielded MIG, but until then, this one does everything I need. I just have to deal with the extra clean up steps.

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Re: Zetec

Post #26 by MechRick » Mon May 09, 2016 3:03 pm

Can you add a gas bottle to the HF setup? That's what I did to my cheap buzz box and it made a world of difference. Also, after the addition of gas, I bought a roll of wire at HF and had problems with it. Switched to a roll of H*me Dep*t stuff and the problems went away. Don't know if it's a reoccurring issue or just a bad batch.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #27 by CoupeBoy » Mon May 09, 2016 3:14 pm

the 90amp is flux core only, the 170amp has the option to run as flux or gas shielded, and for somebody who wants the options it can be purchased for about 2x the price of the 90amp, and is probably worth it (I have never used one).
From what I have read, the HF flux wire is garbage and should be avoided, in my use, it splattered a lot and wasn't as consistent when welding with it, I still have 3/4 of the original roll at home "for emergencies only" in case I forget to buy the better stuff. The Home Depot wire is the same price as the Harbor Freight stuff and the Home Depot has better reputation.

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Re: Zetec

Post #28 by CoupeBoy » Tue May 10, 2016 6:25 pm

This thread, had me out looking around the internet for bellhousing patterns
200-250 motor mount locations -- FordSix Forum
And during my random google searching, I stumbled upon this..
Ford Transmission Bellhousing Info -- MercuryCapri.com
The original site is now defunct and the only place that information exists is on the wayback machine, so I've copied it here.
I claim no ownership to his information and if the owner ever sees this, I'd appreciate any updated information.
Ford Transmission Bellhousing Info

Ever wanted to know which engines shared bellhousing patterns? Want to swap in a new motor and are wondering if it will bolt to your existing transmission? Now you'll know! To the best of my knowledge, this list should be correct, however there may be some errors. These is no substitute for your own research!

Example Measurements
9930duratech.jpg


I am now on a great crusade! I am trying to compile a a list of all the Ford engines and their bellhousing patterns. I am looking for pictures of the back of all the engines listed below as well as some measurements! If you have one of these engines and it's just laying around your garage, please take a picture and please do some quick and easy measurements.

You can click on the example on the left for an example. You don't have to do the picture like this. The picture by itself and then writing the measurements in an email would be great! Once I have a few pictures together and more measurement info I will post a seperate page with the pictures and measurements. I hope to get pictures of all the patterns and measurements.

Once this gets going, I will also start working on transmission measurements.

If you have any other additions or information, please email me!

Also note that even though you'll be able to bolt the engine to the transmission of you choice, you'll still have to figure out the flywheel/flexplate/starter/input shaft/torque converter pattern/etc. issues.
  1. 221 V8, 260 V8, 5 bolt 289 V8
  2. 3.8 RWD/4.2 V6, 255 V8, 6 bolt 289 V8, 302 V8, 351W V8, 351C V8, 240 I6, 300 I6
  3. 351M V8, 400 V8, 429 V8, 460 V8
  4. 2.3 FWD I4, 2.5 FWD I4, 3.0 Vulcan V6 FWD/RWD, 3.0/3.2 SHO V6, 3.8 FWD V6
  5. FE Series - 352 V8, 360 V8, 390 V8, 391FT V8, 410 Merc V8, 427 V8, 428 V8
  6. 1.6 I4, 1.8 I4, 1.9 I4 (Escort, Tracer, OzCapri, Miata)
  7. 2.6 V6, 2.8 V6, 4.0 V6
  8. 2.0 Pinto I4, 2.0 Zetec I4, 2.3 Capri II
  9. 2.3 RWD I4
  10. 4.6 SOHC V8 RWD, 4.6 DOHC V8 RWD, 5.4 SOHC V8, 5.4 DOHC V8, 6.8 SOHC V10
  11. 2.5 Duratech V6, 3.0 Duratech V6, 3.4 SHO V8, 4.6 DOHC V8 FWD
There are some notible exceptions and other interesting notes.

The 400 V8 was also available in a rare casting in 1973. In some full-size Ford, Mercury & Lincoln products the 400 was cast with the small block bellhousing pattern like the 302. It was mated to a an FMX transmission. These blocks are fairly rare, but it would make it easier to swap into various Capris.

A lot of people assume the 2.0 and 2.3 I4s share bellhousing patterns, and in some cases they do and in other cases they don't. In most cases 4 out of the 6 bolts between the engine and the bellhousing are the same for a 2.0L and a 2.3L, but the top two are different. On the 2.3 they are about an inch higher up on the block. The other possible difference would be the dowel pins on the bottom two bolts being slightly larger in diameter for the 2.3. The one exception is the 76 and 77 Capri. The 2.3 bellhousing in these cars are identical to the 2.0 bellhousings found in previous Capris and Pintos.

If you are planning to swap a 2.0 Zetec into a Capri and want an automatic C4, you can use a bellhousing from 2.0 Pintos and Capris before 1975. You may be able to use a 4 speed bellhousing to adapt a T5 to the engine as well. Remember however, you will have to find the proper flywheel. A 2.3 flywheel/flexplate will work work with the 2.0 Zetec.


3.0 Vulcan V6s were the same in front wheel drive and rear wheel drive applications.

The 3.0 Duratech FWD(Taurus, Sable, Escape) and RWD(Lincoln LS V6) are the same bellhousing pattern.

The Mod motors share bellhousings, but the flexplates/flywheels are different. Cast cranks got 6 bolt flexplates/flywheels while forged cranks got 8 bolt versions. The SHO V8 shares the same crank bolt pattern as the forged cranks in these motors.

The Mod motor bellhousing pattern is fairly close to the small block Ford bellhousing pattern. Early 4.6 blocks in 91 and some 92 models were exactly the same as the 5.0/SBF bellhousing pattern.

The 2.0 Zetec motor DOES NOT match the 2.5/3.0 Duratech & 3.4 SHO V8. The 3.4 SHO V8 and the Duratech V6s are a match.

People have said that the Duratech bellhousings changed in 1999 making them incompatible with earlier engines of the same type. From what I've researching, there was a change to accomodate the MTX75 manual transmission. However, I am not sure what that change was. The SHO V8 '99 block matches the 3.0 V6 Duratech V6 block bellhousing pattern, and all the SHO V8 blocks are the same. Not sure what to think of this. There are a few EXTRA holes in the 3.0 Duratech V6 bellhousing pattern, all the other bolt holes are a match. Perhaps these extra holes are the difference?

The earliest two castings for the 4.6L Mod blocks, used prior to late 11/1/91 in Lincolns and 2-18-92 in full size Fords, share the 302/351 small block bolt pattern exactly. The casting numbers that fall under this category are F1AE and F2VE. The change in bellhousing pattern coincided with the changeover from the AOD transmission to the AOD-E, which resulted in relocating two bolt locations, going to larger, hollow dowels, and changing to a three bolt starter. All subsequent Romeo mod blocks beginning with the F3VE use the AOD-E pattern, and all Windsor mod motors use it.* Thanks to Chuck Sanders for this info!


I originally found that link from this forum thread.
Zetec Bolt on 5 Speed? -- LocostUSA.com Forum (this thread is a rabbit hole that I definitely need more time for)
Which also lead me to this...
Tuning the Zetec - Page 1
Specifically this sub section.
ZVH Turbo conversion wrote:There's a popular engine conversion available in the UK, called the Zee-VH. This involves combining the Ford Zetec engine block and crankshaft, and the Ford CVH cylinder head and water pump. Sounds strange? Well, its popular amongst the Ford Escort and Fiesta Turbo owners. It allows them to build a higher capacity engine than the original CVH engine (1600 cc) and it also allows them to retain the original manifolds and Turbo system. Figures of up to 270 BHP have been quoted with this straight forward modification. Jim Hearne is currently producing some information on the Zee-VH and rather than re-invent the wheel, follow this link to Jim's site for all the technical details Zee-VH information page.

Another engine conversion that follows the Turbo route, is of course the Zetec Turbo, where the 16V head is retained. Sunny Khalsa's Zetec Turbo powered Mk3 Fiesta recorded 178MPH at Bruntingthorpe in September 2003, and he was planning to break the 180MPH barrier for a front wheel drive car in 2004.
Clearly, more reading is required.
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Re: Zetec

Post #29 by thesameguy » Tue May 10, 2016 7:23 pm

There is also this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F ... g_patterns

although it gets really sketchy after the turn of the century. ;)

There's also this:

http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?40,2568556

A production adapter that lets you bolt a smallblock Chevy transmission to a Zetec.

But, yeah, I think early Pinto bellhousing + T5 is the cheapneasy.

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Re: Zetec

Post #30 by MechRick » Wed May 11, 2016 3:36 pm

thesameguy wrote: I think early Pinto bellhousing + T5 is the cheapneasy


There were two four speeds used back then. Letter code RAD and the German four speed. The RAD is the Borg Warner SR4 and was the predecessor to the T5, and the German trans eventually became the Type 9 as used in Euro Sierras and US Merkurs. I've owned both, but I don't know if the bellhousings are the same between the two.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #31 by CoupeBoy » Wed May 11, 2016 7:02 pm

as i said before, I am basically i4 illiterate, I never had much reason to know about them.
Sitting at Dad's house is a Ford Ranger with a 2.3L/5 speed and out back in the trees an Aerostar with a 2.3L/5speed (2wd). He offered both, plus he said he had another 5 speed for a 2wd ranger 'tucked away' somewhere. And I am certain that there is a 4 speed for a 2.0L there also.

I am starting to wonder now, with all the EFI 2.3's he has sitting around, how hard would it be to cobble the 2.3L components onto the Zetec?

Refering back to the MGB build,
Zetec Powered MGB Build Thread -- Page 13
4. You need to add at least one more mounting hole to the bell, preferably two. There are two ways to do this. You can either drill the block to match the top holes in the bell, or you can weld a little additional material to the bell to pick up the Zetec holes. The Zetec pattern is already in the block plate for some reason so you have a template to guide you. We chose to weld because the top two holes would have come very close to the back two head studs. I would rather leave the material there and not risk drilling into the stud.
I think I am going to look into getting my block drilled so I can swap transmissions easier. If I thought I might only use one transmission, then welding the ears on would be a one and done deal, but if I want to play around with an automatic and then a couple of manual transmissions and I don't know if they have removable bellhousings or not; then having the top 2 holes will make this easier.

In addition to the OMC/SBC adapter that was posted earlier.
There is also this which is designed for the 2.3L to use SBF bellhousing transmissions, but those top bellhousing bolt holes look like they just might work for the top 2 of the zetec...
2.3 Liter Ford Bellhousing Adapter Plate
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Re: Zetec

Post #32 by thesameguy » Wed May 11, 2016 7:38 pm

I think Lima 2.3 EFI is a sticky wicket. I think all Limas used EEC-IV, which is reasonably adaptable so on the fuel side, you'd be okay. I think the issue would be ignition. The Zetec does not have a distributor, and that *might* make EEC-IV angry... possible you could program it out and use Megajolt. heck, it's possible it might not even care so long as you get it a tach signal. I suspect someplace like Moates would be a place to seek information on what you can do with EEC-IV. I'm sure there are PLENTY of resources for EEC-IV info - Moates just comes to mind. Otherwise, getting EEC-IV to do the fuel is not going to be an issue.

*But* - I don't think you're saving *real* money here. Whether it's carbs & Megajolt or MS2 or EEC-IV tuning I still think you're talking abour $700 or $800 to get a good result. I just don't see things getting much cheaper than that, and I say that because the Zetec was my go-to swap for the Falcon until I realized the Duratec is the same price or cheaper and a newer/better/lighter motor and I got a Duratec! :) TBH, if you've got a bunch of Limas hanging around, why not Lima+turbo+EECI-IV+T5 and sell the Zetec cash? The Zetec is better in the <200hp range, but a Lima turbo will reward its extra 100lbs with an extra 100hp, so it's a net win. ;)

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Re: Zetec

Post #33 by thesameguy » Wed May 11, 2016 7:41 pm

It just occurred to me that late fox body Mustangs were distributorless, so you could use one of those ECMs or ROMs to run that Zetec. Derp!

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Re: Zetec

Post #34 by CoupeBoy » Wed May 11, 2016 9:36 pm

I thought that the Distributor Less 2.3's still used a stub to drive the oil pump and provide a tach signal?

This is the motor in the 2wd ranger at Dads.
image.jpg

I'd have to double check, but I think is is one of those weird ones with 8 spark plugs for 4 cylinders.
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Re: Zetec

Post #35 by MechRick » Wed May 11, 2016 11:50 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:those top bellhousing bolt holes look like they just might work for the top 2 of the zetec...


Yep, that adapter has both patterns. Some of the Limas had both sets of upper holes, so extra support. But the upper two would match the Lima bell and the lower the Zetec pattern.

CoupeBoy wrote:I thought that the Distributor Less 2.3's still used a stub to drive the oil pump and provide a tach signal?


They used a stub shaft to drive the oil pump only. They weren't EDIS, but DIS, which used a waste spark setup and batch fired injectors, thus no need for a cam sensor. They picked up a tach signal off the balancer.

It would be easy to Megasquirt one.

I'm not sure if the Lima ever went sequential injection.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #36 by thesameguy » Thu May 12, 2016 2:59 pm

I don't know, but I would have to believe at least the '98-01 LL25 motors were sequential. Even the crappy HSC motor got sequential injection in the early '90s, I don't see how the Lima could have gotten into OBDII years without it. But, I don't think the injection scheme would be a hangup - surely you can run the Zetec batch-fired, that's what Megasquirt would do anyway. :)

I'm sure the Zetec has a VR sensor that EEC-IV might not like, but it's not that difficult to generate a old-school tach signal - *worst* case one of the install kits for a diesel tachometer would have the pieces you'd need to stick on the crank pulley or flywheel to get a signal EEC-IV can work with. With that tach signal, EEC-IV can do batch-fired injectors and work a DIS coil pack for ignition. Use TunerPro or Tweecer etc. to tune it.

An EEC-IV-powered, batch-fired, DIS Zetec would be a fun mix of old Ford parts, and while you probably wouldn't be eeking *all* the performance out of that motor, it'd probably be fine. FWIW, XR4Tis have *the* EEC-IV harness you want as it's easily removable and totally discrete. Of course, if you'd got Rangers kicking around, that's free. A 2.3/2.5l Ranger is probably close enough to a 2.0l Zetec in performance it would start right up.

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Re: Zetec

Post #37 by MechRick » Thu May 12, 2016 7:10 pm

thesameguy wrote:An EEC-IV-powered, batch-fired, DIS Zetec would be a fun mix of old Ford parts


Just peeked at the PCM schematic for a '95 Contour. Two wire VR sensors for both cam and crank, 60 pin PCM connector, old school dlc connector. OBDI...

Now you got me thinking how well one of these would run in a baby Bronco...
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #38 by CoupeBoy » Thu May 12, 2016 7:20 pm

I loved reading the B2 2.3l thread. I saw that you are planning on supplanting it with a "v" motor.

I'd read it either way. But it would be fun to see the 2.3 get another chance to redeem itself.

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Re: Zetec

Post #39 by MechRick » Thu May 12, 2016 10:39 pm

It needs more power, Scotty. I may end up with another small main block with a 2.5 Ranger crank. I really do like the Limas. Tough little engines...
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #40 by thesameguy » Fri May 13, 2016 2:45 pm

IMHO, the only way the Lima is any good is with a turbo. They don't flow or rev, and even with 2.5l they can't get out of their own way. But they are tough and do well with forced induction. Given how many places Ford stuck the turbo'd Lima there is plenty to draw from and it's easy to do. I've ridden shotgun in a TurboRanger around Thunderhill and it was good fun.

The Zetec would probably need short gears to do anything useful in a B2, but the Zetec Escapes were okay so it's doable - heck, the B2 may even be lighter than an Escape. But, you know, the Duratec is available in 2.3 and 2.5l displacements and makes excellent power naturally aspirated. If a Zetec fell into your lap there's no real reason not to use it, but Duratecs in 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5l are easy to find cheap these days. If you're going to buy something, I can't imagine choosing a Zetec over a Duratec. A 2.5l 170hp/tq B2 would be exciting. A 2.5l Lima is only 120hp/150tq. Quite a bit less.

(Also, I did confirm even the last 2001 2.5l Limas were batch fired. Crazy!)

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Re: Zetec

Post #41 by MechRick » Fri May 13, 2016 7:46 pm

thesameguy wrote: They don't flow or rev, and even with 2.5l they can't get out of their own way


If you had seat time in my Mustang before the turbo went on, it just might have changed your mind. The head had big valves and porting, the pistons had massive dishes, the compression ratio was 7.4:1, but it ran very well for a four. I can't help but wonder how that engine would have ran with compression...

thesameguy wrote:IMHO, the only way the Lima is any good is with a turbo


It's a much cheaper way to go, but I don't want the added expense of premium fuel.

thesameguy wrote:The Zetec would probably need short gears to do anything useful in a B2


It's up 40 HP on a stock 2.3 Lima, but the Lima is making the same torque at 2000 that the Zetec makes at 4000 rpm.

thesameguy wrote:I can't imagine choosing a Zetec over a Duratec


It's the bellhousing change with the Duratecs that is frustrating, but yes, the 2.5 Duratec is a powerhouse...
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: Zetec

Post #42 by thesameguy » Mon May 16, 2016 12:39 am

I have been in a couple semi-built NA 2.3s - Esslinger stuff, etc. - and they just don't impress. I don't think you can really crest 140 or 150hp on pump gas in those motors unless you get into seriously expensive stuff like aluminum heads, etc. They simply can't rev (because they can't breathe) to make real power. For the money something like that would take I just don't think it'd be worth it. Those 150hp builds entail new bottom ends and headwork, an easy $1000 or $1500 in parts. That seems like crazy money to spend on what a junkyard Zetec will do that with a pair of cams! OTOH, Entry level on a 2.3 turbo is 150hp (10psi) and you have a lot of headroom - my XR4Ti is in the 250hp range and reasonably quick. A stock turbo Lima with it's 8:1 CR and, say 8-10psi *with an intercooler* should be fine on regular unleaded. Might need some adjustments to ignition timing, but it shouldn't be an issue. An '80s or '90s Saab LPT (2.0l or 2.3l, 16v, 9:1, 8psi, intercooled) runs great on regular. With the lower static CR the Lima does not need premium for base boost. The only reason it was specified on the automatic XR4Ti is because Ford was to cheap/lazy to intercool it. :thumbdown:

Also, bear in mind that while the Zetec might not have quite the low-rpm torque the Lima has, it isn't far off - this is a Zetec with an exhaust:

Image

It's only off about 15 lb ft at lower revs. It might peak much higher than the Lima, but it's like single-digits off during most of that intermediate time. That's a pretty good trade for a significant bump in power, much wider powerband and a substantial weight savings. Probably gets better gas mileage, too. ;)

The Duratec bellhousing change *is* rough, but there are two manuals that will bolt right up - Mazda M5OD-R1, Aisin AZ6 - and there are several sources for T5 or T9 bellhousing adapters. The T5 has the obvious fitment advantages, but it seems like a total pull out of 2001+ Ranger (engine & trans) makes it easy... well, as easy as putting things where they don't belong ever is. Considering what you win over a Lima - +50% hp and -200lbs - it seems very worthwhile.

(FWIW, I am not down on the Lima - this is just random musings. I'm still rockin' one in my XR4Ti, everything from Esslinger cams & valves to a 3" exhaust and a mountain of parts in the middle. But, if I had a blank slate and was considering what to do, I'm not sure I'd ever consider a Lima. Especially these days - finding good heads is near impossible!)

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Re: Zetec

Post #43 by CoupeBoy » Mon May 16, 2016 11:50 am

Over the weekend, I went to a swap meet and found a guy selling (2) T5 "parts" transmissions. He bought them this way, he sold them to me this way, he knows nothing about them.
The price was right, $25 and that included a SBF bellhousing with throwout bearing.
Image
I'll shelf them for now while I read more about rebuilding them, the one looks complete but is missing its ID tag, the other has an ID tag, but it is known to be missing parts, starting with the input shaft and there is a peice of metal black taped to the input shaft bearing retainer.

If nothing else, I will at least have transmissions for mock up purposes or parts, which I've needed for quite a while.
Image

I really do need to start working on a better storage plan for all the motors and transmissions that I've been accumulating.

I'm into this for less than what it costs to fill my truck fuel tank every week... so yes, basically the zetec did fall in my lap and so did the T5's
I was reading a thread in the small six forum and I'm thinking about building an Arduino/Speeduino for controlling ignition and/or fuel injection.
My 200 EFI Turbo build ('65 Econoline) -- FordSix Forum
From the links he provided, I should be able to *build* the controller for about $160 (obviously.... more reading is required)


While at the carshow/swapmeet I saw this, the window says
1927 Ford Model T
Image
Image
powered by a small i4 of some sort
Image
Looks like it would be fun.
There was a rope and no owner, otherwise I'd have gotten better pictures and more information.

On my drive in this morning, I had a thought..
What about a belt driven distributor?

A few minutes on google, I can find some for V8's, my guess is to reduce ignition scatter on SBC V8 motors.
Jesel -- THE ORIGINAL BELT DRIVE SYSTEM
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Regarding HP and motor building swapping.
If I wanted cheap easy power, I'd go straight for a 5.0 and build toward 400hp.
My current '68 Mustang is a C-code 289, originally 195hp 2bbl, it has been upgraded with Edelbrock cam/lifters/intake/carb but to even imagine that it puts out more than 230hp now.
It runs just fine, ample oompf for daily driving, keeps my wife happy.
I've got more v8's, I've got a ton of small and big sixes, I don't need another project, but its too much fun to quit.

And there must be some famous quote about an idle mind being a terrible thing to waste.

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Re: Zetec

Post #44 by CoupeBoy » Mon May 16, 2016 12:51 pm

I wish this guy had posted more information about the mods he made to the distributor.
Edit: page 4, has a lot more information on his conversion.
Suzuki G10 3 cylinder project. -- Miata.net Forum Page 3
fujioko wrote:My original clever plan for lubrication has also been scrubbed. I ended up boring out the distributor to add a sealed ball bearing assembly on the pulley side.
Image
Image

another thing to consider is a direct mount distributor.
A while back, I had a Ford 2n tractor, 4 cyl flathead. The distributor plugged directly into the front of the motor with an offset key so it could not be set in backward.
Distributor Front Mount For Ford Tractor 2N 8N 9N /9N12100 -- Amazon.com
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Re: Zetec

Post #45 by thesameguy » Mon May 16, 2016 5:16 pm

That rod is awesome - am I reading the sign correctly? $2300? Or is he saying it's 2300-powered? Definitely looks like a Lima under the hood!

I like the idea of Arduino or Pi-powered fuel injection, but I have some concerns about running general-purpose electronics for mission-critical stuff. It's probably unnecessary, legacy concerns - but it still puts me on edge. ;) There are some really cool shields for Arduino - doing it that way should be pretty cheap, but require a lot of elbow grease. I am good with computers, but that's way above my pay (and risk) grade. :)

A cam-driven distributor is a nice thing, but I'm not sure how retrofit-able something like that would be. You'd have to modify the head in a pretty particular way... and then you end up with a one-off head which would be a problem should it warp or whatever. I tend to lean away from things that couldn't be fixed in BFE, NE in a pinch so stuff like that scares me. I think a belt-driven distributor would be cool in a ratrod - visually - but it sure seems like all the time & effort spent making brackets, drives, and just-so pulleys would eclipse a lot of other solutions. Everything for EEC-IV from a Lima can't be more than $100 at a junkyard (ECM, harness, VAM, IAC, coil) and then you need some sort of programmer to tune it which is probably $100-$400 depending on what you do. That's five bills to a running car. I'd eat ramen for a month or two before working much harder over $500. :D Guess now you know my pain tolerances and risk aversion. ;)

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Re: Zetec

Post #46 by CoupeBoy » Mon May 16, 2016 5:52 pm

The "2300" is in the "Engine" portion of the window sheet, so I'm guessing 2.3L i4.

No cam driven distributor, that would be a nightmare.
I dropped off a flywheel for (4) simple bolt holes to be drilled and tapped 3.5 weeks ago and it is still out. While I trust in their work, I don't like being dependent on outside work.
The belt driven one seems like an interesting fix, a couple cogged pulleys and a short belt, make a couple minor modifications to a 4cyl distributor.
Brackets are the least of my concern, I know you have your own phobias :rolflmao:

Dad offered me the Aerostar minivan with 2.3L/5speed (rare manual option) it would be EFI, so it would be up to me to strip it down and take it out, easiest way to get everything and/or mess things up. Not certain of the year.

My next couple weeks are going to be focusing on the next stages of the strip and remodel on my Airstream.
For now it isn't a full remodel, interior paint, rebuild the loo, and new flooring.
Then we will use it as we figure out what else we need.

Some of the last interior pieces coming out of the trailer yesterday.
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Interior from the bathroom looking forward
Image
From the front looking at the Driver Side (also called the street side on the airstream forums)
This is after the third scrubbing of the street side wall.
Image
The curb side needs a lot of attention once I get the plumbing and wiring organized a bit.
Next steps are to finish tearing out the bathroom and then we will paint the interior walls with Zinnszer Bondz (r) primer on the walls, Krylon Fusion (r) on the endcaps, then paint it a color we like.
The flooring was supposed to be in today, but they said 'tomorrow'.

If I had a 100x100 shop building, I'd still need more space..

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Re: Zetec

Post #47 by chad » Mon May 16, 2016 7:31 pm

Hey! what's MY motor doin in the back'a your truck!?
That red lill car is what I drive (granted 2 yrs older & a silver wagon…

Have fun, there's been at least 1 important TSB (fuel sys) so you may want to check if it's been done on this 1.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Zetec

Post #48 by CoupeBoy » Mon May 16, 2016 7:33 pm

The red car belongs to my coworker.
When I start using the Zetec, not much will be factory stock.

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Re: Zetec

Post #49 by chad » Mon May 16, 2016 7:55 pm

when ur done it'll be able to pull that Airstream!
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Zetec

Post #50 by CoupeBoy » Thu May 19, 2016 2:24 pm

Distracted by other things, but not forgotten...

Zetec with distributor
Silvertop Zetec 2.0 Running Distributer -- TurboSport.co.uk Forum
Image

FWIW, I'm mostly looking for a cheap way to get this motor running, after that I'll start working toward performance.

Chad.. whatever I put this powerplant into will be far too small (wheelbase) to pull this monstrosity.
Image
The stock 1978 F250 400 hp/tq specs are 156/260

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