Blowing 3 Gees on my Six

[Luke76]

Sorry guys for the slow response, weather here has been crappy and I haven't been able to motivate myself to go outside and fiddle with this thing.

I can confirm there is no rubbing/knocking on the valve cover, I've had it off several times and inspected the underside and the new rockers fit just fine with no banging. My oil pan also isn't dented but I haven't yet checked the oil pump, it's conceivable it could be making a noise but I am somewhat skeptical it's the cause of this one. Fuel pump is not the cause, you can put your ear right to it and that's not where The Sound is coming from.

Carb is probably definitely out of adjustment so regardless of The Sound I do need to work on that. That's a good idea to route a vacuum gauge so I can see it while driving, that might tell me something. (I don't have vacuum advance on the distributor though Rich, it's plugged off).

Yeah, exhaust leak is loud and obnoxious. That one's going to require me to pull the head again. If I decide I need to just pull the entire engine I'll just do it all at once this summer, assuming I find a garage.

So I still have some things to check. When we get another clear spell in the weather I'll get back to it.


Luke

 

[Anonymous]

Luke. Sometimes we over analyze without enough quality data.
I had a squeal coming from my engine. it was very clearly a fan belt squeal.
I spoke to all the experts. I was advised after I had checked the obvious things over several months:
Check and lubricate behind the harmonic balancer.
lubricate bush inside distributor
Check for air leak around carburetor base.
Check alternator bearing
Lubricate fan belt with dry lubricant

It drove me nuts. I also had detonation so it caused me to consider air leaks on intake.

Couldn't find a damn thing.

I spoke to an old friend who told me to go over the engine with a stethoscope.
We found the problem in 5 minutes flat.

When the engine was rebuilt the inlet manifold had a slight gasket fault which allowed air intrusion. Ever so slight at first no doubt.
It was gradually getting worse.
As the car ran leaner the mechanics kept richening it up at tune.

Took 3 years to finally diagnose and fix. I thought the detonation was due to the new high lift cam they fitted when the engine was rebuilt.

DOH!

 

[Anonymous]

Luke. Sometimes we over analyze without enough quality data.
I had a squeal coming from my engine. it was very clearly a fan belt squeal.
I spoke to all the experts. I was advised after I had checked the obvious things over several months:
Check and lubricate behind the harmonic balancer.
lubricate bush inside distributor
Check for air leak around carburetor base.
Check alternator bearing
Lubricate fan belt with dry lubricant

It drove me nuts. I also had detonation so it caused me to consider air leaks on intake.

Couldn't find a damn thing.

I spoke to an old friend who told me to go over the engine with a stethoscope.
We found the problem in 5 minutes flat.

When the engine was rebuilt the inlet manifold had a slight gasket fault which allowed air intrusion. Ever so slight at first no doubt.
It was gradually getting worse.
As the car ran leaner the mechanics kept richening it up at tune.

Took 3 years to finally diagnose and fix. I thought the detonation was due to the new high lift cam they fitted when the engine was rebuilt.

DOH!

 

[Luke76]

Hi Guys,

I know this is the longest-running thread of all time, and probably the most confusing. For those what care, I'm hoping to wrap it up soon and get this car on the road. Here is what has happened since the last posting:

1) I did one final test to try to determine the sound of my clacking/clicking noise. I disconnected one spark plug cable at a time and drove around. I discovered that if the #6 cable was unplugged, the sound went away completely. For me this confirmed that I had a problem with the bottom end.

2) Now that I knew the engine would have to come out, I set about to once and for all find a place where I could do this. If you recall I live in an apartment. Eventually I found an RV storage place where I thought I could get away with an engine pull. However they were full up. I went on their waiting list for about four months but finally got a bay.

3) I have never pulled an engine before in my life and I also have no one to help me. I did a lot of research before-hand, bought a hoist, a leveler and a stand. In the end it turned out OK, although I don't recommend you do it alone your first time, but it is possible.

4) Took the engine to the machine shop. #6 piston has collapsed skirts, causing piston slap. #3 and #4 also had minor scuffing. All this could have been caused by driving with excessive pinging, which I did.

5) Machinist says I will need an .020" overbore. Since I'm doing a rebuild anyway, I'm going to go ahead and upgrade the cam and a few other small things while I'm at it.

In the next few posts I'll attach a few pictures, then I'll detail my upgrade plan.


To start with, here is a picture of my cheerful working conditions. I could open the bay door and let in sunlight but "technically" I'm not supposed to be using my storage unit as a garage, so I play it safe and work in secret:

 

[Luke76]

In case some day some person stumbles across this thread who is equally inexperienced as myself, they might find some pictures of the engine pull to be of interest.

Two pieces of advice:
1) Buy the heavier-duty hoist. I bought the Torin 2-Ton lift (it looks to be the same one sold by Harbor Freight as well as local auto shops). I figured 2 tons would be more than enough for my measly engine. However, you really have to have the lifting arm extended all the way out in order to work on these cars with long hoods. On my lift, with the arm extended completely the rating drops to 1/2 ton. That’s still plenty for a 250ci + tranny, but if you bought the cheaper lift you may be pushing it.
2) Buy a load leveler! I have no idea how on earth you could do this job without it. Certainly you probably couldn’t do it alone.

As you can see, I decided to pull the tranny while I was at it. It didn’t really add to the difficulty in getting the engine out, and saved me the hassle of disconnecting it in the car. I also pulled the head and used some 7/16” bolts and fender washers in the block to attach my load leveler. I’d read about this approach elsewhere on FordSix and it worked real well.


On my Granada, I was able to get the hood up far enough that it didn’t interfere with anything. I think I might have had a harder time removing my hood single-handedly than I would have the engine:



Here is where I attached the four chains from the load leveler.



Good thing I removed the radiator before-hand. In hindsight I also wished I had removed the air-conditioner condenser, and/or the crankshaft pulley. The truth is, even fully extended, the arm of the hoist isn’t really long enough for the length of the hood on this car, and as soon as the engine clears the mounts, it will swing way forward so as to be suspended directly underneath the lift point. And of course the higher you lift, the further forward the engine moves as well.



Getting the engine angled down helps.



Now we can lift some more.



Now it just needs to be leveled and it will clear the front support.



Success at last.

 

[Luke76]

Here is a photo clearly showing the scuffing in Cylinder #6. Not surprisingly, when I measured, the #6 cylinder happens to have the smallest chamber CCs (about 2cc less than the other chambers), the least deck clearance (10 thou less than cylinder #1), and of course it is the farthest from the water pump so probably gets the hottest anyway. Drive around with the timing too far advanced and eventually it's no surprise the skirt collapsed.

 

[bubba22349]

congrats you did a good job getting it out

 

[Luke76]

As you know, the cylinder head already had a lot of work done a few years ago. It was milled, ported, polished, oversized valves, valve job, exhaust divider, Classic Inlines roller rockers, and Classic Inlines exhaust headers.

Here is what I plan to do to the block:
1) Overbore the cylinders by 0.020”
2) Replace the stock pistons with flat top pistons (not the taller v8 ones, just stock height but with a flat top). This will help increase compression by removing the 6.5cc dish on the stock pistons
3) Mill block by about 0.020”
4) Swap the cam for a Clay Smith 264/274 – 112*
5) Replace cam, main, and rod bearings
6) Switch to ARP main studs and ARP rod bolts
7) Replace timing chain, oil pump, distributor gear, and lifters

Target compression ratio is about 9.5:1. Here are my calculations so you can double-check my work if you like.

Measurements
Cylinder Bore:____________________ 3.700” (stock plus 0.020” overbore)
Stroke:_________________________ 3.91”
Gasket Bore:_____________________ 3.81” (Felpro)
Gasket Compressed Thickness:______ 0.05” (Felpro)
Cylinder Head Chamber Volume:_____ 50cc (as measured by myself)
Piston Dish Volume:_______________ 0 (because I am switching to flat top pistons)
Piston to Deck Clearance:__________ 0.115” (0.135” measured, will mill 0.020”)

My calculations indicate this will result in a 9.65 static compression ratio / 7.8 dynamic.

The truth is, as stated earlier, that my chamber volumes are not exactly the same, nor is my deck actually flat relative to the pistons. So the measurements above are the worst case (cylinder #6). Some of the other cylinders might have slightly less CR.

The machine shop will of course not only mill the block but true the surface as well, relative to the pan rails. So I will measure my deck clearance once again afterwards to see what it ends up being for each cylinder. But I told them not to take more than 0.020”.

The milling hasn’t been done yet so if anyone sees a problem with my plan, now’s the time to speak up! I really would appreciate a second set of eyes to look over my work.


Luke

 

[MPGmustang]

Awesome Luke!! I love that you got a RV storage place for the engine pull... :mrgreen:

tip for the leveler, as you found it's best with the head off, now because the leveler chains are 'meant' with a v8 in mind, it makes it easier if you shorten the chains a bit, 2-3 links makes a big difference in control and height issues with the hoist.

grats on the progress!!!

have you got the cam already?? cause I wanna steer you away from the dual grind... Everything else looks great!

 

[Luke76]

Richard, that's a good tip about the leveler chains, hadn't thought about that. I'll modify them for when I put the engine back in, should help quite a bit.

Yes in fact I did already buy the cam but I would still be interested to hear your thoughts regarding the dual-pattern. It's still new in box, I suppose I could try to sell it, but that depends on what you have to say... maybe no one will want to buy them after you tell us what's bad about them!

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Unless you install a high stall converter along with the cam swap It will be a dog ( not pulling any punches just stating a fact ) the grind its self inst the problem , but almost all cams ( this one included) will raise the rpm range of the engine , but it does it at all spots including where it starts to make more torque than stock , if the converter stall speed is below that point ( which it is ) it will have less torque ( performance ) than stock, there are some items that require more parts than just themselves to achieve a goal , and a Cam is a biggie in that regard .

 

[MPGmustang]

nothing is bad about them at all, they are a great design and cam.

IMO the issue is that it's not for your engine. the exhaust duration helps breath more, but you have already have your head ported and headers. now the duration is overkill for the exhaust side and can hurt mpg.

I have posted several thoughts on the cam I have, 264/274 110* CSC, it's a great cam and pulls hard.

Elmo, ClassicInlines head builder, said for me to get the most out of my engine/head, I want to run a 280/278 113* cam with 1.6 intake rockers and 1.5 exhaust rockers. he mentioned, I'll get +150hp

for you, I want to suggest a 264/264 112 cam or the 274/274 112, as you already have some nice 1.6 rockers. for a 200 it's a perfect mild cam, but your 250 will make it look tame.

IMO, dual grinds are meant for stock looking engines, no head work and stock exhaust manifold, here is where the extra exhaust duration will really shine.

for the 250, I don't think the cam will affect the c4/TQ much as compared to the 200...

 

[Luke76]

Richard, if the 264/274 would have excessive exhaust duration, then shouldn't that rule out the 274/274 right there? CI also says the 274/274 probably needs a high stall converter.

When trying to select the cam I was going basically off the recommendations on the CI website, which admittedly are somewhat simplistic since they can't take into account everyone's unique situation. Looking at the Cam Profiles page, Mike doesn't specify a high stall converter until you get to the 274/274-110* cam. When I chose the cam, I basically looked at that page, and tried to look at the ones that had 1) Smooth Idle, 2) Good Vacuum, and 3) Stock Converter. I also decided to stick with 112* lobe center because of the smoother idle and the fact it was recommended for auto transmissions.

That basically narrowed down the selection to two cams, at least of the Clay Smith line: 264/264-112* or 264/274-112*. I guess I chose the latter just because it seems to be the most commonly discussed on these forums, but then again, maybe most people aren't porting their heads or doing 2V conversions.

Anyway... I wonder if anyone else has an opinion on this. I don't mind switching to the 262/264 if it would be clearly better. I could also upgrade the torque converter, now would be the time to do it since everything is apart. But I don't want to do things unnecessarily. The more points of view I get the better... FalconSedan and Richard I respect you both but so far I'm not seeing a clear consensus here...


Luke

 

[MPGmustang]

I think the 274/274 112 you can 'get away' with the stock converter... I would try... i'm not afraid of learning if I'm wrong but at least I would learn... and figure out what others would mean when I need a taller stall converter...

here's another of my explanations on/about the dual grind, lot more technical... this is why I am swapping my 1.6 exhaust to 1.5 ratio, keeping the intake 1.6 to help it breath more.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=67853#p519770

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Been racing and Building engine combos for myself and many others since the late 70's , my tri power 255 inch 6 has gone as fast low 14s at low 90's ,( No Aluminum Head , no fancy rockers ), I built it myself , and My 68 390 blown Mustang has gone mid 10's on pump gas, I don't say I think it will work , or it should be OK , all my statements are based on things Ive done , I don't rehash magazine articles , use internet calculators , I speak bluntly and sometimes its not what some want to hear , BUT you can take what I say to the bank , your money your time , Is that clear enough

 

[MPGmustang]

hey FSD, no one is raining on anyone, just opinions... I've learned alot by listening to others, so...

what stall speed do you think a 274/274 112 or 264/264 112 or 264/274 112 would need?

 

[Luke76]

Falcon, I agree the torque converter is important, even on the CI "How to Select a Cam" page it clearly says a high stall converter will be necessary in some cases. In fact it recommends a high stall converter even for the 264 but only at the 108* lobe center.

No one's disagreeing with you, I think the question is just which cam at which point really needs it...

The rule of thumb I have heard, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that you subtract 500-1000 RPM from the peak torque rating of the cam and that should be the stall speed of your converter. Another rule of thumb (listed on the CI page) is that the converter stall speed should match the lowest number of the cam RPM range.

If a stall test is any sort of accurate indication you can see the results of mine here, I got around 1900-2000 RPM. The 264/264-112* has a listed RPM range of 2200-5900, with peak somewhere probably around 2800-3000. So just going by the rules of thumb, which may be inaccurate I don't know, my TC is maybe a bit below what would be ideal but not by very much.

So I would ditto Richard's questions, but also ask if you had any thoughts about what cam, aside from the torque converter issue?


Luke

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

If you go by the charts on CI site it will be disappointing , here is why , you have a low output 6cyl , that is hard to improve upon compared to an equivalent V-8 yes your stock converter may stall to 2200 NOW , but after the cam change it will act like a even smaller engine , converters that are rated at 3500 for general applications will at most flash stall to 2500 in a stock 250 now you add a cam and its worse , yes lobe separation is important but so is the overlap and duration at .050 , if you put in the cam you have chosen ( and I think its a fine choice if other parts are included ) and add a 3500 ( rated ) converter it will work great , anything less ( oh yeah you will be able to drive it , BUT it wont perform ) make sure your dist is properly curved too , oh and a question do you have power brakes ? , because if it has under 15 inches in gear ( vacuum ) kiss them goodby too , so am I saying don't put any cam in a Falcon 6cyl , of course not , BUT its NOT the same as V-8 picks , it may sound good in park , but drop it in gear ( without the aforementioned Converter ) and it will be a DOG , I want to see everyone have fun with these engines , I am not being negative , just bluntly honest , and by the way , the converter in my combo is rated at 4500 , but flashes to 2800 on a good day

 

[Luke76]

Well keep in mind this is after-all a Granada and it's never going to see strip use. But it will see lots of highway use which alone dictates the stall speed of the converter should be below my cruising RPM, which is around 3,000 at 70 MPH with my present gearing. So I don't think it would be a good choice for me to get a 3500-4500 torque converter but that's not to say I still wouldn't be better off with something other than the stocker.

Anyway, it would be easier to swap a TC than it would be to swap a cam, so right now I'm really more concerned about figuring out what the best cam would be. Richard makes a good point about the dual pattern cams having been designed primarily for engines with the stock log exhaust, which I do not have. But if I go with a single pattern cam, I guess the question is, 264 or 274? I'd probably lean towards the 264... that's the intake duration I was going to get anyway.

I might ask Mike what he thinks...


Luke

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Your not listening LOL , OK last time , a 3500 rated converter will maybe flash to 2500 and normal stall will be in the low 2000 range , I didn't say a 4500 , that is what I have for racing , OK I'm done, no more comments from me on this post.