My Jag does that. When you engage full throttle, the AC compressor disengages. Probably only gets you 6-8 hp, but it's something.
The other option is to get a V12 Jag 5.3 and take off six spark plug leads. After you fix them back on, you could pick up 150 hp. Just like a supercharger!
The thing is, you could still be a in-line six member.
Ford own Jag.
Back in the kennel I go....I don't wanna kill a good thread.
The thing is, you could still be a in-line six member.
Ford own Jag.Back in the kennel I go....I don't wanna kill a good thread.
goinbroke2
Well-known member
BWAHAHAHA!!!
A chebby starter on a turbo.....electric turbo!BWAHAHAHA!!!!
Yeah, I'll run 48volts to a starter for how long?
Intake plumbing to run a part time boost "for full throttle"
How can anybody take this crap serious?
Repeat after me "RIP OFF"!!!
A chebby starter on a turbo.....electric turbo!BWAHAHAHA!!!!
Yeah, I'll run 48volts to a starter for how long?
Intake plumbing to run a part time boost "for full throttle"
How can anybody take this crap serious?
Repeat after me "RIP OFF"!!!
A
Anonymous
Guest
there is a electirs turbo charger called zet tubocherger or something like that. It can be used with efi engines or carby engines it's ment to increase torque and mid range power i think it's rated upto engine with 4.5l they go for about $400-$500aus.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I remember a few years ago a company was working in a blower that did indeed work like a Paxton with a motor on it, the advantage they were looking for was ease of installation like the paxton and variability like a standard turbo. They used a gear drive and other tricks to try to reduce the mechanical friction that belts have and such but still they had a separate alternator to power it and it supposedly sounded like a giant Hoover going down the street, and that was on a little four cylinder testbed.
goinbroke2
Well-known member
There is no free lunch, 1+1=2 PERIOD!
Put it this way, instead of one 200 hp motor, why not 200 1hp motors? then you could shut off as many as was unneeded and see a decrease in fuel consumption right? Problem is..REALITY, the extra weight of the complex drivetrain and 200 coils/flywheels/carb's/etc would make it less efficient.
A blower can consume 100's of hp in a high boost/high hp situation. this would be different, but the principals are the same. 1800hp on nitro, 300hp is required to drive the blower, that's 16%.
200hp motor would require 32hp to break even,so 32hp electric motor requires X amount of power(amps or volts depends how you want to do this)
this X amount of power has to be converted from somewhere, so you use a big alternator? for 32hp would be say 500amps at 200volts,where do you store 200volts? or 1000amps at 12volts? well there is another 75lb's worth of batterys and wiring.....ah this is silly.
Just go buy a can of compression and two bottles of horsepower.
A starter that has no cooling system like any other continuous motor, and even has warnings of not cranking for more than 30 sec because of heat, and somebody's going to run 48volts through it continuously?
I say 7 minutes, then the motor is totally ruined from overheating and the solder being thrown out. :roll:
And yes I've wired starters for 24v for starting a demo derby car after it's overheated but I want it to go anyway....no I would never put it back on a street car,you can smell the cooked windings!
I am for superchargers,but against scams!
Put it this way, instead of one 200 hp motor, why not 200 1hp motors? then you could shut off as many as was unneeded and see a decrease in fuel consumption right? Problem is..REALITY, the extra weight of the complex drivetrain and 200 coils/flywheels/carb's/etc would make it less efficient.
A blower can consume 100's of hp in a high boost/high hp situation. this would be different, but the principals are the same. 1800hp on nitro, 300hp is required to drive the blower, that's 16%.
200hp motor would require 32hp to break even,so 32hp electric motor requires X amount of power(amps or volts depends how you want to do this)
this X amount of power has to be converted from somewhere, so you use a big alternator? for 32hp would be say 500amps at 200volts,where do you store 200volts? or 1000amps at 12volts? well there is another 75lb's worth of batterys and wiring.....ah this is silly.
Just go buy a can of compression and two bottles of horsepower.
A starter that has no cooling system like any other continuous motor, and even has warnings of not cranking for more than 30 sec because of heat, and somebody's going to run 48volts through it continuously?
I say 7 minutes, then the motor is totally ruined from overheating and the solder being thrown out. :roll:
And yes I've wired starters for 24v for starting a demo derby car after it's overheated but I want it to go anyway....no I would never put it back on a street car,you can smell the cooked windings!
I am for superchargers,but against scams!
About the electric turbocharger - are you guys talking about one of these?
http://home.swbell.net/creepers/turbo1.jpg
I don't know if they are made anymore, but a few years ago they were selling for about $350US. They were only for small engines around 3.0 liter and smaller. You could even have one grafted onto a turbocharger setup to quickly spool up the turbo and eliminate turbo lag.
http://home.swbell.net/creepers/turbo1.jpg
I don't know if they are made anymore, but a few years ago they were selling for about $350US. They were only for small engines around 3.0 liter and smaller. You could even have one grafted onto a turbocharger setup to quickly spool up the turbo and eliminate turbo lag.
That's it. Give me 4 of them so I can get a compound 12 psi of boost.
My 2 cents worth
There is a free lunch. It's called a rootes positive displacement supercharger. It may loose 100 hp getting an extra 250 hp out of a good V8 ultra hot six-in-line, but its there from idle to full noise.
Vortech, Turbos, M90's etc all need revs to make bigger boost. With a 3/71, , 4/53, 4/71, 6/53, 6/71, V6/71 or other GMC blower, it is postively shoved into the engine, with little need to pull a lot of extra revs to make power. No axial flow, screw action or turbine. Yes, it is ineffiecient, but it builds better boost!
In a 1991 Street Machine article on five famous Rootes GMC supercharged Aussie Ford Street machines ( two one 351C, one injection, one carbied, a carby SVO 378 Windsor-Cleveland, a carbed 460, and a stock blocked 302 Windsor with carbs), all guys said the power is so enormous you must have an auto to harness it, and that the power is seamless. The most telling thing was that 5 out of 5 would never do another supercharged engine because of the expense, the hood needing cutting, and the hassles with breaking periferals (gearboxes, blocks, cranks, drive shafts, axles etc.)
I infer from this that a Supercharged V8 is overkill...there is just too much power for the street, and the costs are so big when top-line periferals break. So the Gospel Acording to Xecute is this. Start with something small and cheap (like a Ford In-line six) and aim to split the difference between a raging mountain motor and a screaming 2.3 Mustang SVO/Turbo Coupe. A good old integral head 200 I6 is a good engine. Bolt on a 3/71 or 4/71 GMC blower with a side draft Weber 45DCOE, or twin 2" SU/CD 175 Stromberg carbs. Aside from compression, blower drive and ignition, and cooling, you've got it. If your emissions certifaction is an issue, go propane!
The ill-fated T-bird SC was close, but the 3.8 didn't have a positive displacement rootes blower in it. The answer to performance is either a proffesionally engineered EFI turbo, or a good old GMC-style blower on a small six.
Thats my idea. Electronic Turbo? Heres one that over heated while being taken back to the manufacture!
My 2 cents worth
There is a free lunch. It's called a rootes positive displacement supercharger. It may loose 100 hp getting an extra 250 hp out of a good V8 ultra hot six-in-line, but its there from idle to full noise.
Vortech, Turbos, M90's etc all need revs to make bigger boost. With a 3/71, , 4/53, 4/71, 6/53, 6/71, V6/71 or other GMC blower, it is postively shoved into the engine, with little need to pull a lot of extra revs to make power. No axial flow, screw action or turbine. Yes, it is ineffiecient, but it builds better boost!
In a 1991 Street Machine article on five famous Rootes GMC supercharged Aussie Ford Street machines ( two one 351C, one injection, one carbied, a carby SVO 378 Windsor-Cleveland, a carbed 460, and a stock blocked 302 Windsor with carbs), all guys said the power is so enormous you must have an auto to harness it, and that the power is seamless. The most telling thing was that 5 out of 5 would never do another supercharged engine because of the expense, the hood needing cutting, and the hassles with breaking periferals (gearboxes, blocks, cranks, drive shafts, axles etc.)
I infer from this that a Supercharged V8 is overkill...there is just too much power for the street, and the costs are so big when top-line periferals break. So the Gospel Acording to Xecute is this. Start with something small and cheap (like a Ford In-line six) and aim to split the difference between a raging mountain motor and a screaming 2.3 Mustang SVO/Turbo Coupe. A good old integral head 200 I6 is a good engine. Bolt on a 3/71 or 4/71 GMC blower with a side draft Weber 45DCOE, or twin 2" SU/CD 175 Stromberg carbs. Aside from compression, blower drive and ignition, and cooling, you've got it. If your emissions certifaction is an issue, go propane!
The ill-fated T-bird SC was close, but the 3.8 didn't have a positive displacement rootes blower in it. The answer to performance is either a proffesionally engineered EFI turbo, or a good old GMC-style blower on a small six.
Thats my idea. Electronic Turbo? Heres one that over heated while being taken back to the manufacture!
A
Anonymous
Guest
I didn't think of it but it does sound like a joke. Just before the end of the heyday of the big military aircraft power plants like the Allison derivitives and the successor to the merlins such as the Rolls Royce griffon and the big assed radials , the engine designers came up with a compound engine design. To get a more efficient setup they used special turbochargers that had output shafts and gear reductions like turboshaft engines and the output was hooked up inline to the output of the engine. the Idea was to supply boost to the engine and tap the wasted energy going down the exhaust to supply more output, I worked real well but good turboshaft engines appeared at about this time and they became obsolete. The last of the old V aircraft engines were topping out at over 2000 cubes and they had to have avgas like 130 octane, the consuption per engine could approach 50 gal per hour easy, and you thought a 460 could suck up some fuel!
But just like the radial the compound engine idea probably would be hard to adapt to automotive use, where would you put it? In aircraft it was easy, it and its gearbox mounted at the back (the front of an automotive engine) and drove straight through the engine and it doesn't sound like it would adapt well to a variable output. It seems like it would add even more lag problems.
But just like the radial the compound engine idea probably would be hard to adapt to automotive use, where would you put it? In aircraft it was easy, it and its gearbox mounted at the back (the front of an automotive engine) and drove straight through the engine and it doesn't sound like it would adapt well to a variable output. It seems like it would add even more lag problems.
goinbroke2
Well-known member
Xecute, it's not a free lunch as you lose power to gain. Even 1hp lost for 1000hp gained is stil not technicaly "free".
Also roots style blowers are not positive displacement because air compresses. That is why when you have say 5# of boost you have 200hp for arguments sake. Move it to 10# of boost and you get, say, 375hp. Go to 30# of boost though and the air is heated (compressed) so much that efficiency actually drops and hp would drop. Although you can't compress water, a water pump is not positive displacement either.
Oil pump, now that's positive, if you plug the outlet then keep turning the pump will either split or you will twist off the drive.
Now as far as what works best, you are correct that a blower is there from the get-go, and a turbo needs to spool up....unless of course you go to a tiny turbo which is always right there...but has limited boost.
As far as breaking stuff goes, on the street it's pretty hard to get the traction to break stuff. Don't get me wrong, some guys can break an anvil in a sandbox. But in general,slicks and weight are normally the parts monsters.
Put a 1100hp engine in a car and punch it..you get smoke! But if you gear it higher to help traction, or put the engine in a 4500# pick up with 44" tires,yeah you'll break something.
Cash is the ONLY REASON I wouldn't build a blown engine. Or any engine that is impractical I suppose.
Bottom line,turbo's suck,nitrous sucks, blowers rock, but I like naturally aspirated.
Also roots style blowers are not positive displacement because air compresses. That is why when you have say 5# of boost you have 200hp for arguments sake. Move it to 10# of boost and you get, say, 375hp. Go to 30# of boost though and the air is heated (compressed) so much that efficiency actually drops and hp would drop. Although you can't compress water, a water pump is not positive displacement either.
Oil pump, now that's positive, if you plug the outlet then keep turning the pump will either split or you will twist off the drive.
Now as far as what works best, you are correct that a blower is there from the get-go, and a turbo needs to spool up....unless of course you go to a tiny turbo which is always right there...but has limited boost.
As far as breaking stuff goes, on the street it's pretty hard to get the traction to break stuff. Don't get me wrong, some guys can break an anvil in a sandbox. But in general,slicks and weight are normally the parts monsters.
Put a 1100hp engine in a car and punch it..you get smoke! But if you gear it higher to help traction, or put the engine in a 4500# pick up with 44" tires,yeah you'll break something.
Cash is the ONLY REASON I wouldn't build a blown engine. Or any engine that is impractical I suppose.
Bottom line,turbo's suck,nitrous sucks, blowers rock, but I like naturally aspirated.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I just went to the junkyard and took one off of a Chrysler LeBaron. Cost me 30 bucks. Only sertain models have it. 4 dr coupe. It makes like 5 psi of boost. so i've heard. I bought it to mess around with. I'll post a picture later.
Good boys, the lot of you!
goinbroke2 You are right. Air suffers thermal expansion under increased boost or even through cycling. So its not quite postive displacement. The boost ratio (effective pounds of boost) isn't proportional to the super charger speed. 
And the cost is the issue for any hop up. The Cost effective option which meets your performance needs, eh?.
For me, my NZ$160 Wade blower will beat NZ$ 3000 ping of GMC or Vortech. But if I end up wasting 2740 bucks to make my little supercharger work, then I should have spent 5000 in the fist place.
There are many roads to performance grass hoppers. That's why engine building and modifications are such fun. The only true shining path is that you should do it with the Ford.
goinbroke2
You are right. Air suffers thermal expansion under increased boost or even through cycling. So its not quite postive displacement. The boost ratio (effective pounds of boost) isn't proportional to the super charger speed. And the cost is the issue for any hop up. The Cost effective option which meets your performance needs, eh?.
For me, my NZ$160 Wade blower will beat NZ$ 3000 ping of GMC or Vortech. But if I end up wasting 2740 bucks to make my little supercharger work, then I should have spent 5000 in the fist place.
There are many roads to performance grass hoppers. That's why engine building and modifications are such fun. The only true shining path is that you should do it with the Ford.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Pumps such as piston, roots blowers or oil pumps are positive displacement no matter what you pump gas or fluid, it just refers to the type, when you pump fluids, if there is no relief valve or bypass and you obstruct it will have to stall, break or blow a line, of course when you pump gasses they will compress but even then sooner or later you reach a limit but they are still positive displacement.
Pumps like turbos, water pumps, vacuum cleaners, etc. Are impeller or centrifugal and you can generally deadhead them without destroying them but certain designs like automotive water pumps put the name impel in impeller but just barely.
Pumps like turbos, water pumps, vacuum cleaners, etc. Are impeller or centrifugal and you can generally deadhead them without destroying them but certain designs like automotive water pumps put the name impel in impeller but just barely.
What are you going to use for a pump? You need a whole lot more than an engine oil pump is going to provide. You'd need a mechanical drive (i.e. belt or gear) to the pump, hoses to the hydraulic motor, a mechanical drive (a step-up gearbox) to the centrifugal blower and still need all the intake plumbing. Every single one of those devices reduces the efficiency of the overall system, costing progressively more and more HP to run it. Turbos seem a whole lot simpler.
Check with industrial equipment companies. Some forklifts and tuggers have hydraulic pumps that can be run off of the harmonic balancer of your engine. I've seen these pumps used for hydraulic steering setups on jeeps but never thought of any other uses for them. They might be worth a try 
goinbroke2
Well-known member
Troposcatter, I've worked with 6v-53 detroits for about 19 years now and had a long post to dispute you almost completed. Then I envisioned a small hyd two rotor vane pump...in theory not much different. I see what your saying. If I block off the outlet and pumped liquid through it, would it bust? Probably not because blowers have too much clearance, but the possibility would be there. And if the possibility is there..it must be positive,even inefficient,but positive none the less. I've seen some scary stuff sucked through a run-away detroit. Everything from gloves and paperwork off a clip board(trying to snuff it) to a parka! None of these did any real damage to the rotors. I've personally stalled an engine by putting my hands over the air horn because the blower was so worn out. Seen guys "flint" an engine with scouring powder and not really damage the blower. Perhaps a new one or a race style one would have tight enough clearances to notice something, but a blower off a diesel? they're LOOSE!
On another note, speaking of blower drives;
In our leopard tanks, we have 10 cyl MTU diesels with two centrifical blowers. They are driven by gear via a ball bearing coupler. When the engine is shut off you can spin them by hand,and at low rpm they are not spinning hard.But bring up the rev's and the bearings lock up the shaft and spin them up around 80,000. I forget how much boost(not something you'd normally check) but if I remember right it's around 1-1 1/2 bar.(15-20psi)
One of biggest problems I've seen is air filters getting too dirty and the large vacuum created causes oil to be sucked past the outer seal and go into the engine. This causes detonation and has destroyed MANY engines.And it's always the second cyl from the end on both sides.(four & eight) The first sign of a problem is a zipperhead (tanker) says it rolls over hard when starting but when it's started runs fine. That is the piston melted to the cyl and is dragging hard on start up!! Another day or so and you have a distinctive puck.puck.puck sound out the exh...a dead cyl. By then it's too late and it needs piston/liner/head/etc.
Oops
There I go rambling on about tanks again! How did I get started this time........ 
On another note, speaking of blower drives;
In our leopard tanks, we have 10 cyl MTU diesels with two centrifical blowers. They are driven by gear via a ball bearing coupler. When the engine is shut off you can spin them by hand,and at low rpm they are not spinning hard.But bring up the rev's and the bearings lock up the shaft and spin them up around 80,000. I forget how much boost(not something you'd normally check) but if I remember right it's around 1-1 1/2 bar.(15-20psi)
One of biggest problems I've seen is air filters getting too dirty and the large vacuum created causes oil to be sucked past the outer seal and go into the engine. This causes detonation and has destroyed MANY engines.And it's always the second cyl from the end on both sides.(four & eight) The first sign of a problem is a zipperhead (tanker) says it rolls over hard when starting but when it's started runs fine. That is the piston melted to the cyl and is dragging hard on start up!! Another day or so and you have a distinctive puck.puck.puck sound out the exh...a dead cyl. By then it's too late and it needs piston/liner/head/etc.
Oops
There I go rambling on about tanks again! How did I get started this time........ FWIW the term "positive displacement" is a term of art in fluid power design. It refers to any pump that pumps, i.e. displaces, a known volume for every revolution. It does not take efficiencies, case leakage, etc. into account. Lobe pumps, piston pumps and vane pumps are all considered "positive displacement." Centrifugals are not because there is no fixed thruput per rev. They need to spool up to work at all and thruput/rev varies widely as a function of both RPM and head pressure.
Air is compressible, so the mass flow rate varies with head pressure in a positive displacement pump, but the VOLUMETRIC flow (ignoring case leakage) does not.
Air is compressible, so the mass flow rate varies with head pressure in a positive displacement pump, but the VOLUMETRIC flow (ignoring case leakage) does not.
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