All Small Six Help ID my Frankenstein!

[ShaneB]

I recently bought this Falcon on a whim and I am trying to figure out what to do with it. It runs and drives, but there are clearly some timing and shifting issues.

https://flic.kr/p/2rWw6ee

https://flic.kr/p/2rWw76E

Here's what I know. It's pink. It's awesome. It's straight and solid.

Here's what I don't know. What the heck the drivetrain is made of. I know that the owner blew up the original motor beyond repair (windows install) and had a shop put a motor/trans in it. He was told it was a 200/3 speed auto that was installed.

It was originally a 2 speed auto. Now it's what I think is a 5 bolt case fill C4.

The head is a C5DE-6090-A. The block is a C1DE-6015-A. The carb is chinesium Holley flavor but without the SCV port. The distributor appears to be a load o matic.

The car runs and drives, but the advance/spark is of course jacked up. You can drive it, but its pretty apathetic till about 40mph in 2nd gear (sorry, no tach) and then the timing appears to come in all at once and it runs like a champ.

I am trying to figure out if it's a 170 or an early 200. It has three freeze plugs. It does NOT have a T or an N on the flat above the downdraft hole. That stamping reads M-2580. Can anyone offer any advice? or it is just pull the head and measure?

 

[frozenrabbit]

C5 is a '65 head, 170 or 200, C1 block is '61. No 200 until '64. 170 or maybe even a 144. I don't personally know how to ID between a 144 and 170 externally, or by the numbers.

Should look for a down draft tube. With out it, you'll get a lot of oil vapor/smoke coating the engine bay.

I'd replace that bodged together lower radiator hose right away, looks like a piece of flex exhaust pipe.

Your distributor advance isn't hooked to the carb, tube is cut by coil, should hook into where you have a vacuum cap right behind your fuel inlet. OEM Holly 1904 has a threaded port. Your carb base plate is not correct for the head, elongated holes to the intake log, looks 'leaky'. Early year standard base plate has coolant flow thru to the heater core.

Looks like you have a Pertronix in your distributor, looked at your other pics on flickr. Not sure how that works with SCV advance. Others in the forum here have Pertronix experience.

Vacuum for wipers and trans should be plumbed into the log. Can't see what your vacuum line is going to that runs over top of the driver side shock tower brace.

Several issues, but nothing major.

 

[awasson]

Sweet looking ride! That is cool. Yes to everything @frozenrabbit said. I didn’t notice the pertronix wiring until after reading his post. Good eye.

I’m surprised you have any timing after 45 miles per hour. Load O Matic distributors don’t have any mechanical advance built into them. They’re all vacuum signal. I wonder if it’s a spark controlled distributor after all. I’ve read that there is an old, period ford i6 distributor that has normal vacuum advance and mechanical advance. I’m not familiar with it other than reading someone’s post here that has one. I’d check to see what numbers you can find on it to see which one it is.

Cool car!

 

[bmbm40]

I recently bought this Falcon on a whim and I am trying to figure out what to do with it. It runs and drives, but there are clearly some timing and shifting issues.

https://flic.kr/p/2rWw6ee

https://flic.kr/p/2rWw76E

Here's what I know. It's pink. It's awesome. It's straight and solid.

Here's what I don't know. What the heck the drivetrain is made of. I know that the owner blew up the original motor beyond repair (windows install) and had a shop put a motor/trans in it. He was told it was a 200/3 speed auto that was installed.

It was originally a 2 speed auto. Now it's what I think is a 5 bolt case fill C4.

The head is a C5DE-6090-A. The block is a C1DE-6015-A. The carb is chinesium Holley flavor but without the SCV port. The distributor appears to be a load o matic.

The car runs and drives, but the advance/spark is of course jacked up. You can drive it, but its pretty apathetic till about 40mph in 2nd gear (sorry, no tach) and then the timing appears to come in all at once and it runs like a champ.

I am trying to figure out if it's a 170 or an early 200. It has three freeze plugs. It does NOT have a T or an N on the flat above the downdraft hole. That stamping reads M-2580. Can anyone offer any advice? or it is just pull the head and measure?

That is a cool Falcon do you know if that was an oem color? First pink Falcon I have seen. Rust free and straight is a good base to start from and if the motor is solid even better. Probably will benefit from a good carb and ignition upgrade and it is way better to have the c4 than the 2 speed. What color is the interior?

 

[frozenrabbit]

I wonder if it’s a spark controlled distributor after all.

It's a Load O Matic.

https://flic.kr/p/2rWvAj9

 

[DON]

Loadomatic has no problem using petronix. It just eliminates the points and condenser.

 

[ShaneB]

Hey guys, here's a little bit more on the car.

I bought the car from a guy who is an artist and former pro BMXer. He got it at some point from a failed hot rod shop here in town half finished.... in fact... that's my name for the car Half Finished. ha! Literally everything is half done. They repaired the rust (there is one cancer spot) and repainted it pink (was originally white w/red interior). I love the color, but it wasn't ever offered in the Falcon that I can tell. I think it might be an OEM color (Dusk Rose?) from the era. I'll know more once I cut and buff it out well.

They replaced the rear glass gasket, but failed to get it fully installed, so drove it with one corner hanging out for a year. They didn't put any other rubber in the car (doors, windows, roof rail etc at all. Just drove it with the breeze. ha!

The pinstriping is pretty nice, but again.... the guy doing it died in the middle of the job... so its half finished. One door and the dash)

They recovered the interior with black vinyl with glitter silver piping... but again did a poor job installing it.

They put a pertronix in it... but failed to address the fact that the distributor won't work with the new carb they put on it.

They swapped the C4... but failed to hook up the kickdown or vacuum modulator.

They lowered it... but failed to cut the ubolts after install, so they have self clearanced on every speed bump in town.

I think my first goal is just to finish what was started. Reinstall the vinyl with new foam, finish the headliner install, find the rest of the brightwork that is missing and install it. Switch the master cylinder to a 2 pot. Make it run and drive well (again, half finished) and update where I see fit. I have Holley Sniper systems on all of my classics and this will probably eventually get one too. They just eliminate so many issues in everyday use. Then I think I'll let my kid drive it when he turns 16. It wont be too fast, it's shiny but FAR from perfect (paint chips, cracking etc) and let's be honest... he'll be the coolest kid in school. Ha!

Little more about me... I am not new to building cars or even old Fords... but I am totally new to Falcons and the the 6. I have a 1975 F250 Highboy and a 1967 Mustang Coupe that are both built pretty nicely. The mustang much more so at it's my wife's... and she doesn't have the same tolerance for aesthetic imperfections (rust, paint fade, etc) as I do. ha!

Here are some more photos of it as I got it and as I have made improvements. I've only had it about a month.

 

[ShaneB]

Now... back to the original question. The motor appears to have been recently rebuilt and is in good shape. This tracks with what the PO has said... though, I am gonna be honest.... he did a LOT of drugs in this car (now clean and sober) and his memory is a little foggy.

https://flic.kr/p/2rWARnv

https://flic.kr/p/2rWAxeR

So I don't have plans to swap it or change the frankenstein nature. I do want to update the ignition so it actually works.

It runs currently, but it's pretty well opposite of what was described earlier in the thread. It's pretty boggy down low, but once you get to 40ish mph it runs like a top and picks up a bunch of power. This is echoed by the timing light which stays exactly where I put it (8 degrees or so) until you hit 2300 rpm or so and then all the advance comes in at once. And a lot of it. ha! This doesn't seem to change when hooked to a manifold or ported vacuum source so the diaphragm may be bad anyhow.

So I am not interested in messing with the load o matic as I am not interested in spending money on a carb that will run it. I'd rather spend all that time/money on the Autolite 1100 EFI.

But obviously the ignition needs to get fixed first. SO..... I know that DUI makes a spendy HEI dizzy for the early block cars. My question is... is there a mechanical advance dizzy that would work in this block (OEM or otherwise) that I could put in with a pertronix and make work? Or is DUI the only avenue? Cause I hate the look of HEI distributors. ha!

Thanks!
ShaneB

 

[ShaneB]

Two more of the interior a little cleaned up and most of the terrible stereo wiring removed and replaced with a simple bluetooth amp for now. Eventually it'll get a full system. Tunes are important.

Also, sticking with the theme of the car... it'll get a real MoonEyes California Metal Flake steering wheel (this one is a cheap knock off) but likely in silver not gold flake to match the piping.

 

[frozenrabbit]

You can hook a piece of hose to your distributor diaphragm, suction and cap with your thumb. It'll just draw air if it's rotted.

 

[awasson]

But obviously the ignition needs to get fixed first. SO..... I know that DUI makes a spendy HEI dizzy for the early block cars. My question is... is there a mechanical advance dizzy that would work in this block (OEM or otherwise) that I could put in with a pertronix and make work? Or is DUI the only avenue? Cause I hate the look of HEI distributors. ha!

Thanks!
ShaneB

You’ve got a few options for a better ignition. You can get a small cap HEI with separate coil. That’s what I did. You can also get a Duraspark II ignition for the 6 and use that. Many do and have great success. One of our members here Bill @wsa111 is a specialist with these and can hook you up with a Duraspark that is curved to your application.

I do have a concern about distributor options. I have read that early blocks have a smaller distributor shaft and it may be difficult or not possible to find an aftermarket unit with the small shaft diameter. I don’t know if the small shaft was just on 144 or 144 and 170 but it’s something to keep in mind. I’m sure someone else here can provide more details on what years were limited this way.

This is the HEI unit I’m running. I chose it for the small cap and it works well.

 

[wsa111]

My recurved DS11 is for 65 & up.

 

[ShaneB]

You’ve got a few options for a better ignition. You can get a small cap HEI with separate coil. That’s what I did. You can also get a Duraspark II ignition for the 6 and use that. Many do and have great success. One of our members here Bill @wsa111 is a specialist with these and can hook you up with a Duraspark that is curved to your application.

I do have a concern about distributor options. I have read that early blocks have a smaller distributor shaft and it may be difficult or not possible to find an aftermarket unit with the small shaft diameter. I don’t know if the small shaft was just on 144 or 144 and 170 but it’s something to keep in mind. I’m sure someone else here can provide more details on what years were limited this way.

This is the HEI unit I’m running. I chose it for the small cap and it works well.

View attachment 29038

I have the same concern re the drive/compatibility of dizzys with 3 freeze plug/4 main blocks. That’s part of the answer I need for sure. bill looks like the pro… I’ll await his answer on what to look for/measure and what can be done.

 

[ShaneB]

My recurved DS11 is for 65 & up.

Thanks for chiming in Bill. That leaves me with just the DUI for pre 65 motors? Is that correct?

 

[wsa111]

Yes sir.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, the early engines use a 1/4" shaft to the oil pump. The later engines use a 5/16 shaft. If you have the 5/16" shaft, you can get a distributor for a 67-68 engine, with the modern mechanical and vacuum advance. The Pertronix that you have will not fit, so will either use the points condenser, or get a new Pertronix module.These engines usually run good with 10-12* BTDC timing.
Check the voltage to the coil. The Pertronix uses 12 volts, and the original Ford system uses 6 volts. Good luck

 

[bmbm40]

This is a great ignition solution maybe it can help you:

Thread 'Upgrade Points Distributor To Fire With A TFI Module'

Jul 8, 2023

Converted my wife's daily driver to points-controlled electronic ignition using a Motorcraft ignition module off a '93 F150. Credit for this swap goes to gofastforless.com. I emailed the man who wrote the site to verify a couple of specifics, and he responded, which I appreciate.

The goal of the project was to keep from having to clean/change points, which are hard to get to on this vehicle. But the after-swap test drive showed an (unexpected) noticeable improvement in idle quality, (50 rpm increase in idle speed), throttle response and acceleration clearly better. I wager...

• Frank
• Replies: 60
• Forum: Economy and MPG

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[wsa111]

Hi, the early engines use a 1/4" shaft to the oil pump. The later engines use a 5/16 shaft. If you have the 5/16" shaft, you can get a distributor for a 67-68 engine, with the modern mechanical and vacuum advance. The Pertronix that you have will not fit, so will either use the points condenser, or get a new Pertronix module.These engines usually run good with 10-12* BTDC timing.
Check the voltage to the coil. The Pertronix uses 12 volts, and the original Ford system uses 6 volts. Good luck

Here are some measurements on the shafts.

 

[Frank]

Engine looks clean! And has .040 over pistons in it.