New To MS, Learning basics

[E4ODnut]

Richard,
I don't want to rain on your parade, and I certainly don't want to discourage you away from programmable EFI, but, if I'm interpreting your posts correctly I get the feeling that you would like a "bolt it on, does everything for you" system. That's a tall order and I'm not sure that there is a solution for it. The latest version of "Tuner Studio" for Megasquirt is very good, but it's not a "silver bullet".

Programmable EFI can be very rewarding, but it is not for the feint of heart. You really should have a very good idea of what you are doing before you start, because you definitely will have enough rope to hang yourself.

I equate it to having a carburated engine, with conventional ignition, that you have never run before. You are given a very good quality carb, completely disassembled, with every possible combination of venturis, jets, air bleeds, metering rods, etc, etc, etc. You are also given a very good distributor, also completely disassembled, with every possible combination of fly weights, springs and vacuum advance assemblies.

Now, you are expected to put it all together and tune the engine as good or better than the factory did and not blow it up in the process.

I'd suggest that you do a bit of soul searching and ask yourself if you are up to that, and if you are, welcome to the loony bin. It can be lots of fun.

 

[falcon fanatic]

Hi there. Been reading your thread and have a few cooments to add. The all in one sytems youve listed are great, especially ata $1K price point, however, they all share a common problem. Since you have a log head you need to factor in how you plan to attach yout TB to the head. All of the kits listed come with a GM style TB which has a wide bore spread and is hard to adapt to our sixes. Less common, but just as good is the a TBI unit from the crown vic and the early/mid eighties mustangs. This has slightly smaller butterflies, but still plenty large, and a much narrower bore spread. Also, they use the same holley bolt pattern as the adapters that Classic inlines sells. Thus, whether you are going to do an adapter mount or a direct mount, you'll have an easier time making it fit.

I've been able to get two on ebay for about $30 each. They need rebuilds, but autozone sells an inexpensive kit as well as three different size injectors. The units haveintegral pressure regulators and a fitting for a fast idle actuator. So basically you Are looking at about $150 for one fo these, rebuiltnwith new injectors.

 

[falcon fanatic]

Sorry about the typos. Using an ipad and its a bit hard to get used to.

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

the ford CFI units use the same form factor regulator as the common 5.0L mustang. the CFI one has no vac ref line on it (since the injectors don't see vac) this allows for a cheap way to put an adjustable one on the CFI. I had picked up a couple of these and was working on building a CFI setup for my old 200. I had removed the goofy ford fuel line fittings (some goofy flare tube size) and had just tapped the boddy for NPT so I could put on whatever I wanted. One of the bodies I had I was even setting up for an external regulator.

they do use a different sized air cleaner then a stock holley. you could also set up a ford aidle air motor pretty easy as an external item (you just need a block to bolt it to with some threaded holes for running the air lines from.....you could prob also use a large solenoid valve too)

I was planning on trying to get mine fired up on a stock 3.8L CFI box.....never made it all the way there and ended up getting the XFlow so gave up on it.

 

[Anlushac11]

From what I read and I dont claim to be a expert...

You can machine top of log and then install a Classic Inlines Holley 2bbl adapter plate.

You can then get a Holley 2bbl to GM TBI adapter that will allow you to bolt on one of the very common GM TBI's found on lots of V6's and small V8's. IIRC Trans Dapt makes the adapter and Jegs and/or Summit carries it.

You can then run the TBI with a MS and use all the sensor connections needed off the TBI. Some people have considered using a TBI body with no injectors in it to run port mounted injectors and using sensors on TBI.

I was considering doing this but decided when I go EFI its going to be on the Aluminum head or nothing. I was worried about the log heads poor airflow to end cylinders and then injecting a set amount of fuel to end cylinders and having end cylinders running rich or even worse fuel washing cylinder walls.

 

[falcon fanatic]

The problem with running the GM TBI on a Holley style adapter is that you will end up with a series of steps that are likely to wreak havoc on your airflow/fuel atomization. It's already hard enough for the fuel to make a 90* turn into the log and then another 90* turn into each runner. Add to that a step reduction going through two layers of adapters and you'll have another place for the fuel to hit the walls and stick.

TBI on a log manifold is not great and many argue that there is no point as carbs do just as fine a job under those circumstances. That's true if all you care about is either peak power or fuel economy (not both). I think having electronic control of idle and mixture for varying conditions, not to mention the possibility of spark advance/retard seems like a great thing.

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

why not fab an elbow to bolt on a standrd TB and then have a pair of injector bungs on it with a small fuel rail?

I think trying to get enough fuel through 2 injectors to feed a turbo 200 will be tough. I think you need to seriously look into a port conversion on the log. At the bare minimum a direct mount 2bbl setup is needed and then you should be able to fit maybe 4 injectors in it.

I wonder if a whole new top could be made for a log out of a slab of AL and mount injectors in that. it would still be far from ideal though.

 

[MPGmustang]

since I have started this thread a few things have changed...
I'm now running a 2bbl with a holley 350cfm carb, looking to get my own carb as I'm just borrowing this from a great friend.

I do still think about the GM TBI as the injectors are on the TB, and it's GM, which is very compatible with MS.

I have the DUI, so it won't be controlling timing, but I have heard that HEI doesn't always send a 'clear' signal for the RPM. even my tach gage bounces around, I think it's due to the ground, still have yet to run a gound wire. but either way, it's important for the MS to read the RPM and I won't beable to run any type of cam sensor.

with dual exhaust, is it best to run two O2 sensors? I don't mind the extra readings even if I don't need both.

XFlow_Fairlane, a whole new top for the log head sounds like the plate they use for the offy 3x1 carb setup. maybe I don't need to get rid of the entire top but just add holes where the injectors would be, then mount the plate like offy does?? sounds innovative an I like it, but doesn't sound like the route I can go right now. although that would be an awesome kit to design.

Falcon Fanatic, I can't do anything about the 90* angles, the GM TBI would ack just like a carb as for air travel, except that it can regulate the A/F ratio on th spot, which is better in eco and power. granted the different adaptors could hinder if not the same size, but I have seen imporments with 1inch spacers so maybe the extra height might help?? the main difference between a carb and TBI is that it changes on the fly when you change elevations. this is a road trip car in the future, it will see many changes in elevation, and I don't want to have to re-tune it while I'm enjoying the trip. but that is the end goal. I don't mind which TBI I use, I just figured GM as MS likes it more.

E40Dnut, well I guess I must be looney this isn't one of my overnight projects I would like to just dive in but self control is the only thing holding me back. I'm actually very intrested in making my own. but I was looking at the 'learning' options as a beginners build. then eventually move to my own that I cna build only because I don't know what I'm doing. lol but I think as the time I want to take on this project isn't even thought up yet, I have plenty of time to make one test it, and then install it. control would be great the more I read. in some places I have read it gets more rewards than a learning system. but I can't agrue with the 1k price point for bolt on set drive... I hope I can build something for around $700 when all is done, but I have other thing that need to be done before this.


current project, I'm finding a holley 2300 350cfm series, I have found a few items that I would like to add to it, like an electric choke, and an idle kick-up solenoid for the A/C. I have even seen that you can attach a TPS to the holley 2300 series, so I might try that and fool around in the furture. who knows maybe a MS on a carb would be the ticket lol it would certianlly be intresting and possibly even cheaper.

I appreciate all the comments and idea's in this topic, all are great things to think about. so keep them coming, when (cause I will) I go this route I'll have alot of knowledge to look back on.

 

[MustangSix]

You can use the HEI/DUI. Take a look at the MS hookup for a 7-pin module and on how to lockout the centrifugal advance.

I'm not sure, but if you use a 4-pin module you might be able to take the signal and use it. The module should produce a square wave that MS can read.

 

[falcon fanatic]

Right, I was just saying that it's not perfect and the CFI will give you a simpler mount, especially since it uses the same adapter you already have on there. Compatibility with MS is a non-issue as the only electronics in the CFI are the TPS and the injectors and the MS is fine with those. you could run GM sensors for everything else.

 

[MustangSix]

Understand. I was just thinking that you could keep the DUI and control timing via the MS by capturing the existing coil trigger signal from either a 4 or 7 pin module. The CFI will likely work fine but will be HP limited due to the injector capacity.

 

[falcon fanatic]

Oh, you are absolutely right about the timing control. Basically you would set up the locked dizzy like you said, set the timing with a timing light, and then the MS will add or subtract timing based on whatever tables you program. Of course, if you move the dizzy it resets everything by an equal amount. I think it's a great idea and exactly what I plan to do after I get my car reassembled.

I'm just on a CFI vs GM TBI kick because the CFI fits the log so much better than the GM unit does. It's my personal campaign. Of course, I'm secretly hoping someone will get around to it before me so I can watch and learn from their trials and tribulations. In reality, though, it's no different than the Tempo conversion.

 

[thesameguy]

I have a Holley 670 2bbl TBI w/ 2 85 lbhr injectors on it on my 500cid Caddy running off a MS2.

Man, no intention to threadjack but do you have any pictures of that you could link to? I have a '67 Fleetwood with a 429 and have been looking for some fuel injection inspiration. The 429 is a bit of a pain since it's so odd, but I am pretty q-jet is q-jet, and those TBI kits should work.

 

[MPGmustang]

Has Anyone heard of http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ ?

they have a setup for a i6 200 for $850... all you need is fuel lines throttle cable, air and spark... not too bad, I think that would be my cheap solution. I'm asking for more info I'll see what else is there... hopefully it would come with a 2bbl TBI... IDK... I know they have 1bbl TBI's too...

 

[MustangSix]

TBI should be pretty easy for a 200/250. There's lots of documentation and support for the GM 1227747 ECU.

Use a 4.3 or 305 TBI as a starting point. The Duraspark can be used if you lock out the centrifugal and vacuum advance and use a GM 8pin module and spark control control module with a GM coil.

GM knock sensor, MAP sensor, coolant temp sensor, and a wiring harness from an 82-95 TBI equipped truck or van. Electric fuel pump and a fuel return line.

You'll need to burn a new prom. TBIchips.com could do it for you or you could do it yourself.

Shop around on ebay or prowl the junkyards and the cost of everything is probably under $300. You could pull the works from a single vehicle.

The 4.3/ 305 throttle body will easily support over 200 hp; more than enough for most of our engines.

I'm in the process of doing this to a 350 Chevy right now. So far so good. As long as you don't run a radical cam, tuning shouldn't be an issue.

 

[MPGmustang]

Jack,
I know it's cheaper to run to the JY but I have NO CLUE in what I'm doing, none... I figure if I get a kit that's ready to 'bolt' on I'll be better off on the learning curve and safely mod my engine than making something out of spare parts that could break it because I don't know.

when I started the thread I really didn't know what MS was about, then I went out and read... and read some more... then found more to read... but it's still giberish to me... this forced me to realize I'm honestly not intrested in making it myself and really just want something ready to bolt on and go.

the down side is price, but considering if I mess up something the cheaper way it soulc be drasicly more expensive. I figure I spend more now so I won't ahve to later.

 

[bmbm40]

Has Anyone heard of http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ ?

they have a setup for a i6 200 for $850... all you need is fuel lines throttle cable, air and spark... not too bad, I think that would be my cheap solution. I'm asking for more info I'll see what else is there... hopefully it would come with a 2bbl TBI... IDK... I know they have 1bbl TBI's too...

That looks like a good way to get fuel injection. I posted a link in the fi section about an injected 250 in a Bronco and a guy over on classicbroncos.com has one on his 250.

 

[MPGmustang]

you think there is any benefit if I got the option to control the timing too? supposidly I can have DUI swap parts to have the AFI ecm control the timing, it's not much of a difference in price and a good oppurtunity to go fully computer controlled, just hope some ecm burst doesn't ruin my car...

 

[MustangSix]

timing control using a duraspark can be done with a GM ignition module and coil. It will just plug into the TBI or the Howell harness. You have to lock the vacuum and centrifugal advance.

 

[MPGmustang]

after asking more questions from AFI they basicly use a GM OBD1 system, making it plug and play. to tune I would need to get a $60 cable to connect to a laptop and record a file to send to them, they would send me a new chip that I swap on thier ECM. this does give the option to run timing control to my DUI, the duraspark is an option, but I would like it to be simple and cheapest, as far as I can tell it would be more simple to have DUI convert my DUI to a 7 pin and run like that, it's just that I already have it.

hmm options... for $925 is there a better option? I know OBD1 is little out dated, but would it be a performance improvement over my carb and mech dis? I know start's would be, and looking on the mega squirt site, thier stock v8 didn't see much changes from stock, a few hp and a couple torque, on mine that would be a huge difference, but what's the overall thoughts...

thier kit would require me to run my own fuel lines, they supply almost everything to make/keep it simple. somethings I would have to get squred away is the throttle linkage, air cleaner, fuel lines.