Rough idle + pinging

[CobraSix]

Double check all your wiring. I know you said you had the problem before and after your pertronix install, but check to make sure you have solid connections everywhere, especially with those spade connections. I had my car randomly die on me because of a loose connection.

LIke CZLN said, it's the on again off again nature that is perplexing. Usually that indicates an electrical problem of some sort. Out of curiosity, how old is the coil? Check all your connections to it. Next time you get the pinging, pull over (at a safe spot) and keep the car running. Try pulling the plug wires off one at a time and checking the spark. Should be strong and should be able to arc across 1/4" at least to the plug. Strong and blue.

It's just the off and on nature that makes me think it's an electrical problem. Fuel pumps generally work or don't work. Carbs generally work or don't. Air is always there.

These engines are easy, but your problem is truly odd.

Also, next time it pings, try getting some pictures of the spark plugs as soon as you can. Those may give us more clues.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy again:

If it were a fuel delivery problem the engine would stumble and miss, but not knock. The lean condition cause me to suspect an internal metering problem.

The stock OEM carb and distributor for a 1962 170 in all states was a Holley #1908 (Note change. I previously said 1909) mated to a Load-O-Matic distributor. carb and distributor were linked by a SCV. The 170 engine carbs were rated at 150 cfm. Autolite 1100s first appeared in the 1963 model year. FoMoCo offered a different Holley carb, the #1940, as a service replacement when Autolite went out of business in 1970. California only, got a different distributor (Non SCV, with both centrifugal and vacuum advance) and a down-sized non SCV 1100 in the 1966 & 1967 model years.

The Load-O-Matic distributor and a corresponding carb with a SCV was FoMoCos distributor/carb of choice from (I believe) late forties until 1968 ('67 & '67 in Calif/Em equipped cars).

The Holley #1909 was a one year only application on Comets and Meteors only, (And '63 Ramblers). It has a SCV, but is not the distinctive side mounted float bowl design of the 1904 and 1908 Holleys.

Next time you remove the distributor cap check for the appearance of two springs visible on top of the breaker plate. Depending on the distributor position they will be near the bottom/6 o'clock position. If you can see the springs, you have a Load-O-Matic type distributor. Next verify that the carb has a SCV. You will need to verify what carb and distributor you have, for certain, before we can go on.

I'm more leaning to an internal metering carb problem, but a carb/distributor mismatch/malfunction could be adding to the symptoms.

Keep it coming. I'm hoping this is helpful.

Adios, David

 

[thesameguy]

Double check all your wiring. I know you said you had the problem before and after your pertronix install, but check to make sure you have solid connections everywhere, especially with those spade connections. I had my car randomly die on me because of a loose connection.

All my wiring is very good - with the exception of two spade terminals everything is soldered, and those spade terminals are weatherproof and not prone to being loose. I have an actual Ideal ratcheting crimping tool for those connections - I'm not using a cheapo store-bought hand crimper. It doesn't mess up!

LIke CZLN said, it's the on again off again nature that is perplexing. Usually that indicates an electrical problem of some sort. Out of curiosity, how old is the coil? Check all your connections to it. Next time you get the pinging, pull over (at a safe spot) and keep the car running. Try pulling the plug wires off one at a time and checking the spark. Should be strong and should be able to arc across 1/4" at least to the plug. Strong and blue.

The coil was purchased at the same time as the Petronix - it's a Pertronix coil.

I'll pick up a spark spark plug and check spark on my next bad test drive.

It's just the off and on nature that makes me think it's an electrical problem. Fuel pumps generally work or don't work. Carbs generally work or don't. Air is always there.

I agree it feels electrical, except that if it was the ignition system I think it would either stop working entirely (something disconnected) or work very poorly (weak spark). Also, it's odd that the problem seems to change drive by drive, rather than minute by minute. If it's ok, I can drive seemingly forever without incident - it's only once the car is turned off and restarts that there's an issue. I need to actually try that - just keep driving some day when it's running well!

That makes me think it's heat related - something cools down, contracts, shifts, and isn't right again until it's heat cycled again. I dunno!

 

[thesameguy]

Howdy again:

The stock OEM carb and distributor for a 1962 170 in all states was a Holley #1908 (Note change. I previously said 1909) mated to a Load-O-Matic distributor. carb and distributor were linked by a SCV. The 170 engine carbs were rated at 150 cfm. Autolite 1100s first appeared in the 1963 model year. FoMoCo offered a different Holley carb, the #1940, as a service replacement when Autolite went out of business in 1970. California only, got a different distributor (Non SCV, with both centrifugal and vacuum advance) and a down-sized non SCV 1100 in the 1966 & 1967 model years.

The Load-O-Matic distributor and a corresponding carb with a SCV was FoMoCos distributor/carb of choice from (I believe) late forties until 1968 ('67 & '67 in Calif/Em equipped cars).

The Holley #1909 was a one year only application on Comets and Meteors only, (And '63 Ramblers). It has a SCV, but is not the distinctive side mounted float bowl design of the 1904 and 1908 Holleys.

I am positive I have a 1909 - it is exactly this:

http://www.carburetorfactory.com/expvw12.html

You can see it clearly in this picture:

http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... ngine1.jpg

Next time you remove the distributor cap check for the appearance of two springs visible on top of the breaker plate. Depending on the distributor position they will be near the bottom/6 o'clock position. If you can see the springs, you have a Load-O-Matic type distributor. Next verify that the carb has a SCV. You will need to verify what carb and distributor you have, for certain, before we can go on.

When I installed the Pertronix, I used these guidelines:

http://falconfaq.dyndns.org/Pertronix_1 ... 266-2.html

I don't remember any variance between those pictures and my distributor, so I assume I've got whatever Al has.

I replaced the distributor that came with the car with a rebuilt when I did the Pertronix, it's a Cardone 30-2611 and came from Advanced Auto Parts:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... 416791____

It's identical to what came out.

Does that help?

Keep it coming. I'm hoping this is helpful.

It's all new, reasonable stuff to check out and I'm learning about the car on the way. It's all very helpful thanks to all!

 

[bubba22349]

It was rebuilt by a local shop. I trust their work, but you're right, it could be an issue like that. Is there a way to check without disassembling?

Yes they are a very good shop Yes you can spray some carb cleaner around the shaft and listen for an rpm change or when its acting up spray it and should settle down again.

I realize there is no filter in the fuel hose - the filter on the car had 3/8" fittings (zero idea how the previous owner worked that out) and didn't fit. I'll pick up an inline filter tomorrow.

Here is the vacuum/fuel pump - notice the fitting is totally gone.

Many of those older fuel pumps had the filter in a canister at bottom of pump. Also if it has a woven type fuel hose from line (from tank) into the pump old ones can collapse inside. The pumps vac. fitting can be put back in and tapped with soft hammer and your good to go.

I am positive I have a 1909 - it is exactly this:

In the parts blow up #32 is SCV I can't tell in your pic's if you have it. Do you have the distrib's body number or the year of aplacation? Ca 66 and down is a LOD 67 up is vac. advance

 

[thesameguy]

Many of those older fuel pumps had the filter in a canister at bottom of pump. Also if it has a woven type fuel hose from line (from tank) into the pump old ones can collapse inside. The pumps vac. fitting can be put back in and tapped with soft hammer and your good to go.

The hose from the metal fuel line to the pump appears to be molded rubber, but I haven't checked it out closely - I will!

On the vacuum pump, when I suck on the hose at the carburetor end, I never get vacuum. The leak appears to be at the vacuum pump, as when I cover the hole where that fitting goes with my finger, I still don't get vacuum. Is that normal? I would think not. I do get vacuum on the wiper servo itself, so there is clearly a vacuum leak somewhere at the vacuum pump.

In the parts blow up #32 is SCV I can't tell in your pic's if you have it. Do you have the distrib's body number or the year of aplacation? Ca 66 and down is a LOD 67 up is vac. advance

I'll check for the SCV, and I'll check for the distributor's part number. I do know that Cardone part number above is accurate. Rockauto shows that part number for:

FORD 300 1963
FORD CLUB 1963
FORD CLUB WAGON (1962 - 1964)
FORD CLUB WAGON DELUXE (1962 - 1963)
FORD COUNTRY SEDAN (1962 - 1964)
FORD COUNTRY SQUIRE (1962 - 1964)
FORD ECONOLINE (1961 - 1964)
FORD FAIRLANE (1963 - 1964)
FORD FALCON (1960 - 1964)
FORD FALCON SEDAN DELIVERY (1961 - 1964)
FORD MUSTANG 1964
FORD RANCH WAGON (1962 - 1964)
FORD RANCHERO (1960 - 1964)
FORD SUNLINER 1963
FORD VICTORIA 1963
MERCURY CALIENTE 1964
MERCURY COMET (1960 - 1964)
MERCURY COUNTRY CRUISER 1963
MERCURY CYCLONE 1964
MERCURY METEOR (1961 - 1963)
MERCURY VILLAGER (1962 - 1964)

 

[thesameguy]

Yes, there is an SCV - I just never noticed it before!

More fun times: Started it up a little bit ago to capture some audio of it pinging. Let it sit and idle for 10 minutes or so, then drove it up and down the back driveway. I noticed while making it do its thing that it only pings in Drive, never in reverse. No idea what that means, but then the thought occurred maybe it's not pinging at all, but some other noise I can't identify.

Finished my test, shut the car down, and heard the sound of something liquid hitting something hot. Turned out to be the sound of fuel dripping out of the carb and evaporating on the exhaust manifold. Nice! It wasn't doing that while the car was running, so, what, the pressure relief valve on the fuel pump? Missing fitting + vacuum pump not holding vacuum + failed pressure relief valve? I think this "new fuel pump" is crap.

Can anyone piece together a scenario where a mechanical fuel pump doesn't reliably generate fuel pressure?

Bah.

 

[thesameguy]

You can clearly hear the pinging noise I am hearing in the first few seconds of this video. The digital camera captures high pitched noises very well so it sounds a little louder vs the rest of the world than it actually is, but it's basically the noise. Still can reason why I don't hear it in reverse.

http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/misc/pinging.mp4

 

[69.5Mav]

STOP!!!!

DO NOT DRIVE this car until this gets resolved. It is very dangerous to drive a car that leaks fuel like that.

 

[thesameguy]

Obviously! This literally just started today in my driveway - the car has gone nowhere and will be going nowhere.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back:

You have verified that you have a #1909 Holley carb that is not an original 1962 170 carb along with a Load-O-Matic distributor, correct for the year and engine. Does the carb have any stampings or markings on the fuel inlet or the base of the carb?

Once you have the gas leak fixed, try driving the car with the vacuum line to the distributor disconnected and plugged. Both in Drive and Reverse to see if you can generate the same symptoms. If they still persist, you can partially eliminate the vacuum system from the puzzle. Most likely,with vacuum eliminated, is an internal carb problem. If you could borrow a good 1908 for comparison that would sure help.

Q- "Can anyone piece together a scenario where a mechanical fuel pump doesn't reliably generate fuel pressure?"
A- Yes, there are several. The intermittent one is a worn eccentric on the cam that drive the pump arm up and down to create the pumping motion. This symptom gets worse when the pump gets hot. You could try dumping a bucket of cold water over the fuel pump next time it acts up and see what happens. Do you have a pressure gauge to check fuel pressure? Also a weak diaphram in the pump could cause intermittent low pressure.

An electric fuel pump may be over powering the needle seat in the carb, causing the bowl to overfill and leak out through the breather hole. It is very hard to track a gas leak on a hot engine because gas evaporates so fast.

that's all I've got for the moment.

Adios, David

 

[thesameguy]

Once you have the gas leak fixed, try driving the car with the vacuum line to the distributor disconnected and plugged. Both in Drive and Reverse to see if you can generate the same symptoms. If they still persist, you can partially eliminate the vacuum system from the puzzle. Most likely,with vacuum eliminated, is an internal carb problem. If you could borrow a good 1908 for comparison that would sure help.

I don't personally know anyone else with anything older than say, 2002... except myself. I've been checking ebay and such for a good used carb for a while but I think people who have these old units are hanging onto them. I was seriously considering buying a Vaporizer from Pony Carburetors, but at four bills that could buy me a Zetec->C4 adapter from quads4rods, so that's out. All I have found locally are carbs attached to junk motors, and I can't rely on them.

I'll get the fuel pump fixed up and try driving without the carb's vacuum line. That's an advance correct? It should increase timing under vacuum, decrease under load, yeah?

A- Yes, there are several. The intermittent one is a worn eccentric on the cam that drive the pump arm up and down to create the pumping motion. This symptom gets worse when the pump gets hot. You could try dumping a bucket of cold water over the fuel pump next time it acts up and see what happens. Do you have a pressure gauge to check fuel pressure? Also a weak diaphram in the pump could cause intermittent low pressure.

I do not have a pressure gauge yet, but I have a fitting and a Holley electric gauge coming on Thursday. The pump is currently mechanical, but in light of this issue (which I seriously hope is the relief valve and not a carb problem!) I just ordered a new Carter P4070 to go on the car. It's about the same price as a reputable rebuilt mechanical anyway. I will lose my vacuum wipers, but meh, I'll never use them anyway. The new electric pump should be here on Thursday too.

It looks like Thursday is the next work day on this car...

Final question: What block off plate do I use to cover the spot where the mechanical fuel pump should have gone?

 

[bubba22349]

Looks like do you have a distributor and carb for a LOD combo. so if SCV is working you should be able to make it work. You need to baseline all the tune up spec.’s to stock to eliminate some of the variables and than change only one thing at a time. Plugs in my opine Motorcraft BF-82 or equive. Autolite are about the best for tuning on these Fords gap set to 0.34, points gapped at 0.025, Dwell angle should be 37 to 42. Set the timing 10° to 12° BTDC for an automatic. A 1962 engine has solids so set the valve lash (when hot) to .016 for both intake and exhaust. Idle for automatic 500 to 525 rpm warmed up and the manifold vacuum should be about 17 inches at idle.

 

[thesameguy]

I think everything you're looking for is in the first post - plugs are Motorcraft BF-82, twenty miles on them now, gapped to .035". Ignition is Pertronix with a Pertronix coil and base timing is 10 degrees BTDC. I have been setting timing at about 675rpm, as that yields a comfortable ~625rpm idle with the car in Drive. Is it worth lowering the idle further and checking the timing then?

I have set valves exactly once in my life, 14 years ago, and totally blew it. I did it on this car late last year (about 50 miles ago ) and used a stepped feeler @ .016". As I mentioned in the original post, I really don't know what I'm doing here and getting the "feel" for the setting was difficult, but I believe it's right. The only odd thing I noticed is that some adjusting nuts were very difficult to turn and others quite easy. I don't know if that means something. Wires, cap, rotor, distributor, plugs, oil, oil filter, air filter are all brand new.

I have not measured manifold vacuum as I didn't know the spec - now that you mentioned it I see it plain as day in the factory manual. I'm not going to be running the engine for a couple days, but I will check that. It'll help pinpoint any problems.

I feel like all the base specs and parts are where they should be, but WTF do I know? I am liking David's explanation about weak fuel pump diaphragms or a worn cam lobe causing weak pressure. Now, I wish I'd been able to check fuel pressure before my current relief valve issue. Oh well on that.

If someone can point me in the right direction for a fuel pump block off plate (SBC, SBF?) for a '62 170 I'll pick one up this evening and yank the current mechanical pump. I'm actually anxious to see what's going on in there. Also, can anyone confirm whether the vacuum pump should hold vacuum itself or not?

 

[MPGmustang]

I would check the throttle valve on the carb (lower butterfly) confirm the linkage only moves in the intended direction. My PONY carb after 2yrs of use had it's linkage move front to back, causing any tune I gave to the carb to be gone again, but I was mostly chasing down random RPM speeds at idle (650 first, then 1100, then 750, then 650 then 1000, 950,650.... ect)

timeing is okay, I remember the max i was able to run on the pony and LOM with pertonix was aroun 8* EVERYTHING above that pinged, so try 6* or lower. to hear what a piston on fire ping sounds like advance the timing to like 30* at idle, it should piston ping and that's what you don't ever want to hear. if it's not the same ping then you might be lifter nocking, possibly old springs? or bent push rod, have you looked at any of those? my dad's packare bent 8 ran like a champ and "clacked" a hell of a lot only to find out 3 broken push rods and 4 bent ones...

the heat cycling has me courious, are you running water through your carb spacer? if so, try by-passing it with a metal pipe. getting rid of heat sources might help.

check for vacuum leaks by doing the mentioned above, take carb cleaner spray and spray the hoses, carb base, anything that has "air" sucked towards the carb. if the idle changes at all, repeatidly then there's ur leak.

check to see if your linkage on the carb is rebbing against itself...
next time you do have a bad driving day pull over with it still running and check for leaks with carb cleaner.
to get rid of carbon pile up, slowly pour water down the carb with it high reving, the water "steam cleans" the pistons (as if you have a controled head gasket water leak)

is the ping'n constant, or does it accelerate with engine speed or tire/road speed?

whens the last time you changed the t-stat? heat hurts everything.

good luck and keep it all coming! all details are helpful!

Richard

 

[thesameguy]

timeing is okay, I remember the max i was able to run on the pony and LOM with pertonix was aroun 8* EVERYTHING above that pinged, so try 6* or lower.

That's solid - I will check that as well when I get the fuel situation worked out... sucks to be running so little timing, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Were things better/different before installing the Pertronix? Seriously, if I have to run 6 degrees that could be the issue entirely. 10 != 6 I have gone down to 8 and it changed nothing.

to hear what a piston on fire ping sounds like advance the timing to like 30* at idle, it should piston ping and that's what you don't ever want to hear. if it's not the same ping then you might be lifter nocking, possibly old springs? or bent push rod, have you looked at any of those? my dad's packare bent 8 ran like a champ and "clacked" a heck of a lot only to find out 3 broken push rods and 4 bent ones...

When I had the valve cover off to set the valve lash, everything looked "normal" in there, valves moving uniform distances. I did not pull any of the rockers or pushrods. That said, this noise is totally unlike any pinging I've ever heard. I have six turbocharged cars in the driveway running everything from 8psi to 24psi - I get pinging every so often! Pinging is *generally* random - little here, little there. This noise seems very repeatable, like it's always about the same. I really discounted pinging as the source of this noise for a long time, but then I ran out of other things to check! I don't understand why I don't hear it in reverse, and IIRC (sooooo many tests...) I don't hear it revving the engine. I hear it in Drive, but now I don't remember if I hear it in Drive with my foot on the brake or not. I feel like I tried that this afternoon, but I don't remember the results. Maybe you can listen to the sound in that video above and see what you think?

the heat cycling has me courious, are you running water through your carb spacer? if so, try by-passing it with a metal pipe. getting rid of heat sources might help

whens the last time you changed the t-stat? heat hurts everything.

I am using the spacer/heater - I have more or less ruled that out since it will ping when the engine is ice cold, and doesn't seem to change as coolant temps increase. The previous owner says he changed the thermostat when he installed the giant Mustang radiator. It does appear to work properly - the upper radiator hose stays cool til the engine heats up.

is the ping'n constant, or does it accelerate with engine speed or tire/road speed?

It's throttle dependent. More throttle = louder pinging. When it's having a bad day, if I let automatic transmission creep accelerate the car, it's fine. Any amount of additional throttle gets increasingly louder pinging. Road speed doesn't seem to matter - if I'm doing 50 and I take my foot off the gas, it stops. If I touch the accelerator again, it starts. And, again, it only happens in drive - if I'm coasting along, put it in Neutral, and rev the engine no noise. This afternoon, I could leave it Neutral, mash the throttle, and get no noise.

If I've never mentioned it, I hate carbs and I hate automatic transmissions.

If anyone has listened to that video above, could that noise be my fuel pump self-destructing? What about something coming from the forward gears of the transmission?

 

[bubba22349]

I could not play your video but it may be due to my old computer. A bad fuel pump can knock quite loud as rpm goes up it gets louder too, when you pull it check the arm pivot gets sloppy.

 

[69.5Mav]

I could not play your video either.

This is sounding more and more like a transmision problem. I don't know if there is an inspection cover on th bell housing but I would check the flex plate for cracks and weather the torque converter is bolted up to the flex plate correctly.

I don't know a lot about auto trans's so maybe some one else with more knoledge can chime in here but if the problem comes and goes depending on weather you are in FWD or REV or in gear at all AND it sounds different from any pinging you've ever heard before then it seems to me that the tranny is in question.

 

[thesameguy]

I like the transmission explanation because it's not a product of my work. I've just never heard a transmission make this noise, either.

I'll get the video in another format or extract the audio and see if folks can have a listen.

 

[thesameguy]

Here is an MP3 of just the audio from that video - you can hear The Noise in seconds 2-3.

http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/misc/pinging.mp3