Rough idle + pinging
- Thread starter thesameguy
- Start date
I agree, good progress. Chasing down noises can be difficult. Seems like you are on the right track now. I don't know much about auto trans, been a stick shift guy all my life, so the only thing I could tell at this point is change it out for a T5. Not what you want to hear I'm sure.
Good Luck and keep us informed on what you find.
Good Luck and keep us informed on what you find.
thesameguy
Famous Member
69.5Mav":1ja8sr7s said:
Heh, you and me both. I think I can count on one hand the number of automatics I've had in my life - and three of them are in the driveway right now. An '84 Suburban, a '67 Fleetwood, and the Falcon. Come to think of it, those are the only cars in the driveway that aren't turbocharged four cylinders, also. Heh.
As horrific as this is, I am probably not going to put any effort into solving this problem now. More likely, I'm going to wait for the thing to self-destruct (or not?) and then figure out what to replace it with when that happens. With any luck, an old 5-bolt C4 will show up first.
C4 will show up first
I like em due to "the auto that robs the least power from the SBF." Got good rebuild threads from the bronk crowd that tricks it out n saves $1,000 on a rebuild (& 1 sittin on the floor w/a D30 x-fer case attached). Amassing how easy it is to wrk on (with a book/vid/thread &/or friend).
May B call a transmission guy NOW n save it? Don't ferget 2 ask him if he has dentures & white hair 1st :mrgreen:
I like em due to "the auto that robs the least power from the SBF." Got good rebuild threads from the bronk crowd that tricks it out n saves $1,000 on a rebuild (& 1 sittin on the floor w/a D30 x-fer case attached). Amassing how easy it is to wrk on (with a book/vid/thread &/or friend).
May B call a transmission guy NOW n save it? Don't ferget 2 ask him if he has dentures & white hair 1st :mrgreen:
thesameguy
Famous Member
Yep, TC bolts were checked when I checked the u-joints on the driveshaft. I tried shining a light up there to check for a damaged flexplate, but didn't see anything obvious.
The torque converter bolts and flex plate are both unlikely suspects since the problem is only in Drive, but both of those are spinning the same direction in Reverse or Neutral. If it was one of those, I'd have the sound regardless of the gear I was in. It's gotta be something internal to the transmission or *maybe* between the transmission and wheels. My girlfriend and I agreed it sounded like it was coming from the transmission pan, so that's what I'm sticking with until the r&p explodes itself all over the highway.
I'm going to be replacing rear wheel cylinders, pads, and possibly drums in a week or so, and I'll check the diff fluid at the same time. That way I can check it out, look for damage. I was hoping to put that off until I could come up with a good power brake solution, but I'm nowhere close to actually modifying this car yet.
The torque converter bolts and flex plate are both unlikely suspects since the problem is only in Drive, but both of those are spinning the same direction in Reverse or Neutral. If it was one of those, I'd have the sound regardless of the gear I was in. It's gotta be something internal to the transmission or *maybe* between the transmission and wheels. My girlfriend and I agreed it sounded like it was coming from the transmission pan, so that's what I'm sticking with until the r&p explodes itself all over the highway.
I'm going to be replacing rear wheel cylinders, pads, and possibly drums in a week or so, and I'll check the diff fluid at the same time. That way I can check it out, look for damage. I was hoping to put that off until I could come up with a good power brake solution, but I'm nowhere close to actually modifying this car yet.
thesameguy":1r6gr7v1 said:
I can count almost on one hand the number of cars I've owned in my life and I aint no spring chicken either.
61 Chevy, first car L6 235 3sp gone to car Heaven
72 Mav, 2nd L6 170 3sp
69.5 Mav, 3RD L6 170 3sp
82 Sentra, 4th L4 1.5 5sp
73 Mav, 5th V8 302 C4
08 Prius, Newest Synergy Drive
I still have and drive all these cars except the 61 Chevy.
sry but I can count the number of cars I've owned on one finger... hopefully it stays that way for a long time
thesameguy
Famous Member
I have no idea how many cars I have owned. Dozens and dozens. Right now:
'62 Ford Falcon I6 – 2.8l
'67 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 V8 – 7.0l
'80 Saab 900T I4 – 2.0l turbo
'84 GMC Suburban V8 – 6.5l
'85 Saab SPG I4 – 2.0l turbo
'86 Merkur XR4Ti I4 – 2.3l turbo
'95 Alfa Romeo 164Q V6 – 3.0l
'07 Pontiac Solstice I4 – 2.0l turbo
Most of those I have owned for a very long time, but others will come & go. Right now, though, I have more cars that I am deeply in love with than ever before, so who knows...
'62 Ford Falcon I6 – 2.8l
'67 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 V8 – 7.0l
'80 Saab 900T I4 – 2.0l turbo
'84 GMC Suburban V8 – 6.5l
'85 Saab SPG I4 – 2.0l turbo
'86 Merkur XR4Ti I4 – 2.3l turbo
'95 Alfa Romeo 164Q V6 – 3.0l
'07 Pontiac Solstice I4 – 2.0l turbo
Most of those I have owned for a very long time, but others will come & go. Right now, though, I have more cars that I am deeply in love with than ever before, so who knows...
thesameguy
Famous Member
Hi guys -
Thought I would continue on this thread with developments, see if anyone has any additional thoughts or input. I'm far less worried about The Noise now than before, but there is nothing wrong with a little academic discussion.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... ningaf.jpg
The above is a shot of the Autometer A:F gauge zip tied to the steering column. Hasty installation, but it does the job and did not require modifying the car to do, and I like that. The gauge sits about where you see at idle, which is a few bars into "rich." Under heavy acceleration, the gauge dips down into the high end of "stoich." I think that is probably richer than it needs to be for ideal economy/power, but I'm unsure yet whether I need to adjust the idle mixture, increase the timing, or up the plug gap. It's running strong as-is, but I think there are still some ponies to unlock. I probably should see how things change in the upcoming Sacramento summer.
In any case, I've been driving it as often as possible in the past couple weeks, now that I am less afraid of the engine blowing up from The Noise. What I have observed is that The Noise will go away entirely after a few minutes of freeway driving, and then return after a few minutes of surface street driving. Based on other factors, it seems like heat makes it stop, then once things cool down from going at a leisurely pace it returns. I am wondering if maybe the ridiculously oversized transmission cooler is the culprit (or at least a component), so I'm looking into a thermostat to help the transmission get up to temp quicker. IMHO, it should have one anyway so why not?
=====
If you're interested, here is my fuel pump install:
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... lpump1.jpg
The fuel pump is now no longer fastened to the floor of the car. There are rubber isolators sandwiching the floor of the car, and large washers "hang" the pump from the isolator in the trunk. There is no metal to metal contact anywhere. The rubber is part of a conveyor belt, the same material I used to make the spring isolators on my XR4Ti. It's super durable. Unfortunately, it may be too durable as it doesn't do a perfect job of isolating the pump. I may need something softer, at least on the bottom. It does a pretty good job, though, and now I'm left primarily with noise and virtually no vibration. The pump is still loud, but not buzzy. I think most of the noise I'm hearing is from outside the car, rather than noise echoing through it.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... elays1.jpg
These two relays are stashed by the brake master cylinder, the interlocking relay mounts are from a Saab 900 but I can't remember what part... maybe a passive ("mouse") belt module? In any case, that big grey wire provides battery power to both of them. They are grounded by the battery, and pulled down by the ignition switch. I didn't like the idea of running anything significant through the 50 year old switch, so it's just whatever tiny amount is needed to pull down those relays. The grey relay is a dual-throw and powers the oxygen sensor heater, narrow-band A:F gauge, and Pertronix ignition system. The black relay is single-throw and powers the fuel pump. Some day I will redo this wiring so the grey is the fuel system and the black the ignition, but it was installed in stages and this is how it worked out.
I've been trying to come up with a way to tie the fuel pump to engine operation rather than the ignition switch, but not trying that hard. As it is, when you turn the key the fuel pump starts but that could be dangerous since someone could run the pump with the engine off, or worse the pump could continue to run in an accident. There is a kit to tie the pump to the oil pressure switch, but that seems less than ideal (although functional...). 8v Saab cars have some special relay that closes with a tach signal and retrofitting that is my first choice - I just need to figure out what that tach signal looks like, and maybe how I can use it to also run a tachometer. I also want to be sure there is some sort of replacement option when my supply of 8v fuel pump relays dries up. Once I get this worked out I'll rewire the relay blocks accordingly.
I also need to wrap up the red wire that runs over to the Pertronix, but I am thinking about relocating the coil from the side of the engine to the shock tower so I haven't done that yet. Seems like having the coil bolted to a heat sink rather than a heat soaker is desirable.
I bled the brakes on Sunday, and my next project is replacing the front suspension. The previous owner installed new KYB shocks, but every single bushing on the car is destroyed and it creaks like my grandmother at the slightest provocation.
Thought I would continue on this thread with developments, see if anyone has any additional thoughts or input. I'm far less worried about The Noise now than before, but there is nothing wrong with a little academic discussion.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... ningaf.jpg
The above is a shot of the Autometer A:F gauge zip tied to the steering column. Hasty installation, but it does the job and did not require modifying the car to do, and I like that. The gauge sits about where you see at idle, which is a few bars into "rich." Under heavy acceleration, the gauge dips down into the high end of "stoich." I think that is probably richer than it needs to be for ideal economy/power, but I'm unsure yet whether I need to adjust the idle mixture, increase the timing, or up the plug gap. It's running strong as-is, but I think there are still some ponies to unlock. I probably should see how things change in the upcoming Sacramento summer.
In any case, I've been driving it as often as possible in the past couple weeks, now that I am less afraid of the engine blowing up from The Noise. What I have observed is that The Noise will go away entirely after a few minutes of freeway driving, and then return after a few minutes of surface street driving. Based on other factors, it seems like heat makes it stop, then once things cool down from going at a leisurely pace it returns. I am wondering if maybe the ridiculously oversized transmission cooler is the culprit (or at least a component), so I'm looking into a thermostat to help the transmission get up to temp quicker. IMHO, it should have one anyway so why not?
=====
If you're interested, here is my fuel pump install:
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... lpump1.jpg
The fuel pump is now no longer fastened to the floor of the car. There are rubber isolators sandwiching the floor of the car, and large washers "hang" the pump from the isolator in the trunk. There is no metal to metal contact anywhere. The rubber is part of a conveyor belt, the same material I used to make the spring isolators on my XR4Ti. It's super durable. Unfortunately, it may be too durable as it doesn't do a perfect job of isolating the pump. I may need something softer, at least on the bottom. It does a pretty good job, though, and now I'm left primarily with noise and virtually no vibration. The pump is still loud, but not buzzy. I think most of the noise I'm hearing is from outside the car, rather than noise echoing through it.
http://www.sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/mi ... elays1.jpg
These two relays are stashed by the brake master cylinder, the interlocking relay mounts are from a Saab 900 but I can't remember what part... maybe a passive ("mouse") belt module? In any case, that big grey wire provides battery power to both of them. They are grounded by the battery, and pulled down by the ignition switch. I didn't like the idea of running anything significant through the 50 year old switch, so it's just whatever tiny amount is needed to pull down those relays. The grey relay is a dual-throw and powers the oxygen sensor heater, narrow-band A:F gauge, and Pertronix ignition system. The black relay is single-throw and powers the fuel pump. Some day I will redo this wiring so the grey is the fuel system and the black the ignition, but it was installed in stages and this is how it worked out.
I've been trying to come up with a way to tie the fuel pump to engine operation rather than the ignition switch, but not trying that hard.
As it is, when you turn the key the fuel pump starts but that could be dangerous since someone could run the pump with the engine off, or worse the pump could continue to run in an accident. There is a kit to tie the pump to the oil pressure switch, but that seems less than ideal (although functional...). 8v Saab cars have some special relay that closes with a tach signal and retrofitting that is my first choice - I just need to figure out what that tach signal looks like, and maybe how I can use it to also run a tachometer. I also want to be sure there is some sort of replacement option when my supply of 8v fuel pump relays dries up. Once I get this worked out I'll rewire the relay blocks accordingly.I also need to wrap up the red wire that runs over to the Pertronix, but I am thinking about relocating the coil from the side of the engine to the shock tower so I haven't done that yet. Seems like having the coil bolted to a heat sink rather than a heat soaker is desirable.
I bled the brakes on Sunday, and my next project is replacing the front suspension. The previous owner installed new KYB shocks, but every single bushing on the car is destroyed and it creaks like my grandmother at the slightest provocation.
Hi thesameguy.Now I could be so far off base here that I`m not even in the ball park.However,have you considered that the "pinging"could have something to do with the DRIVE band in the tranny and or its related parts? Have heard some strange sounds from metal to metal contact before a failure.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo
thesameguy
Famous Member
It could totally be the drive band, or those little gremlins that make automatic transmissions work in the first place. *Zero* idea. The fact that it goes away after being driven for a while it just incentive for me to drive it more. I may take it up to a shop here that seems very good with automatics and see what they think. I'm just too embarrassed to have a professional look at it in its current shape. With new front suspension and a presentable oil cooler, I'll feel a lot better about that.
*Zero* idea. The fact that it goes away after being driven for a while it just incentive for me to drive it more. I may take it up to a shop here that seems very good with automatics and see what they think. I'm just too embarrassed to have a professional look at it in its current shape. With new front suspension and a presentable oil cooler, I'll feel a lot better about that. thesameguy
Famous Member
The car had an alternator conversion prior to my ownership, so no more VR.
I have not changed the fluid, but what's in there looks bright and pink. When I got the car, it was three (four? not positive) quarts low, so I added in some Valvoline Type F. I've checked it periodically since then, and between September of last year and last weekend it used/lost a pint. Not too shabby.
Once I get the front suspension done I am going to run it up to a local shop that actually still works on transmissions. They have done really well for me in the past, so I'm going to have them look at it. It seems to do everything perfectly, although there is a slight clunk on the downshift from 2->1 slowing to a stop. Not terrifying or anything, but quite apparent. I am surprised at how "just fine" the 2-speed is, so if they can ID the noise and fix it for a reasonable sum of money, I may just keep it in the car.
The Falcon does seem to like being driven regularly. I've done 20-40 miles per day for the past five days, surface streets and freeway, some light traffic. Idle has been improving, and today I actually bumped the timing up to 12 degrees to try and pick up some fuel economy and power. A:F still looks great - virtually perfect in fact - and it's running strong. What roughness there is still in the idle could be the transmission, or could be shot motor mounts. They're on my to-do list too.
I'm shopping for suspension now... it looks like California Mustang has a kit for the front end, with all four a-arms/bushings/ball joints and the spring perches. I just need to find the lower control arm bushings, and I think I want to replace the front springs as well. It's a little saggy one on side. I suppose I also need to find out when the car was actually made, as none of the kits I've seen address pre 10/61 cars. Presumably that's all MY62 and later, but I don't wanna find out the hard way.
I have not changed the fluid, but what's in there looks bright and pink. When I got the car, it was three (four? not positive) quarts low, so I added in some Valvoline Type F. I've checked it periodically since then, and between September of last year and last weekend it used/lost a pint. Not too shabby.
Once I get the front suspension done I am going to run it up to a local shop that actually still works on transmissions. They have done really well for me in the past, so I'm going to have them look at it. It seems to do everything perfectly, although there is a slight clunk on the downshift from 2->1 slowing to a stop. Not terrifying or anything, but quite apparent. I am surprised at how "just fine" the 2-speed is, so if they can ID the noise and fix it for a reasonable sum of money, I may just keep it in the car.
The Falcon does seem to like being driven regularly. I've done 20-40 miles per day for the past five days, surface streets and freeway, some light traffic. Idle has been improving, and today I actually bumped the timing up to 12 degrees to try and pick up some fuel economy and power. A:F still looks great - virtually perfect in fact - and it's running strong. What roughness there is still in the idle could be the transmission, or could be shot motor mounts. They're on my to-do list too.
I'm shopping for suspension now... it looks like California Mustang has a kit for the front end, with all four a-arms/bushings/ball joints and the spring perches. I just need to find the lower control arm bushings, and I think I want to replace the front springs as well. It's a little saggy one on side. I suppose I also need to find out when the car was actually made, as none of the kits I've seen address pre 10/61 cars. Presumably that's all MY62 and later, but I don't wanna find out the hard way.
thesameguy
Famous Member
And...
Model Year = 1962
Model Series = Falcon 2 Door Futura Sedan
Engine = 170 Cu. In. 6 cylinder
Body Type = Falcon 1962 2 Door Futura
Exterior Color = White (Corinthian White)
Upholstery Color = Light Beige Crush Vinyl and Pearl Beige Crush Vinyl
Date Born = 02January 1961
Transmission = 4 Speed Manual Transmission
Axle = Incorrect Axle Code
DSO = Seattle
Assembly Plant = San Jose
Looks like finding those suspension parts got harder. Heh.
Model Year = 1962
Model Series = Falcon 2 Door Futura Sedan
Engine = 170 Cu. In. 6 cylinder
Body Type = Falcon 1962 2 Door Futura
Exterior Color = White (Corinthian White)
Upholstery Color = Light Beige Crush Vinyl and Pearl Beige Crush Vinyl
Date Born = 02January 1961
Transmission = 4 Speed Manual Transmission
Axle = Incorrect Axle Code
DSO = Seattle
Assembly Plant = San Jose
Looks like finding those suspension parts got harder. Heh.
You might want to recheck your Vin code. 
If it were born on Jan 02 1961 that would make it a 1961 year model. Of course the other possibility is that drivers door could have been swapped off another car too since the codes don’t match the equipment you have.
If it were born on Jan 02 1961 that would make it a 1961 year model. Of course the other possibility is that drivers door could have been swapped off another car too since the codes don’t match the equipment you have.thesameguy
Famous Member
bubba22349":stu33rj7 said:You might want to recheck your Vin code.
I hadn't noticed, but that data plate decoder seems to gotten the axle and transmission code wrong, but everything else is right. The two other decoders I checked showed the correct information, and agreed on the manufacture data. Maybe someone is circulating (or stealing!) the wrong code on the net... ? It is correct about it being a 170ci 2-door Futura in Corinthian white, though. One of the other decoders reports:
BODY CODE - Body 64C = Futura 2 Door Sedan (Buckets)
EXTERIOR COLOR - Color M = Corinthian White
INTERIOR TRIM CODE - Trim 84 = Beige Crush all Vinyl
DATE OF MANUFACTURE - DATE A = January 02, 1961
DISTRICT CODE (DSO) - District 74 = Seattle
REAR AXLE RATIO CODES - Axle Code 5 = 3.50:1 non locking differential
TRANSMISSION CODE - Trans 3 = Fordomatic (2 speed) Automatic
ASSEMBLY PLANT CODE - CODE R = San Jose
ENGINE CODE - ENGINE CODE U = 170 Cu Inch Inline 6
This information is all accurate, but still the '61 date.
The Vin code or the Vehicle Warranty number would than have to look like this 2R64U 1XXXX for a 1962 on the Warranty tag and that same number on the inner fender panel. It would be 1R64U 1XXXX for a 1961. Also it is not uncommon for a Vehicle to be titled, as the year first sold which can than be different than the year built.
thesameguy
Famous Member
bubba22349":uuu3ri15 said:
A '61 sold as new in '62 would still be titled as a '62 in California, so that is possible. However, the warranty tag is 2R17U 134091, and the plate on the door matches the stamp in the engine bay.
So, I'm nowhere.
Edit:
Using your Falcon Vin it’s for sure a 1962. Why the decoders you have used say it was built in 1961 is very strange. The date code is “Jan 02,” the year would come from the 2 in the Vin 2R17U 134091 = 1962.
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