SOLVED: Still running poorly, still having vacuum issues

[cfmustang]

I swear to God, how much can I get for my car in its present condition.

First of all, I tried t use tape to map the curve. The tape kept slipping. I am going to have to go out and buy some different color paint markers.

Anyway, while I am waiting for the spare 32/36 to arrive, I got bored this weekend and installed my Ignitor II and FlameThrower coil. As I mentioned in another post, that was working but having some hard starting issues. That turned out to be that installing the Ignitor (without touching the timeing), the coil and new plugs gapped .045 caused the timing to be around 30 degrees initial.

Has anyone else ever heard of this? I swear, I did not touch the timeing. I measured it with the points before installing the Pertronix and it was at about 13 deg initial. Simply installing the new parts pushed it to beyond where I could see the mark.

I backed the timing down to 13 degrees initial (still no vac advance...in fact, before I had to move the dizzy one tooth over so I could advance it, now it seems like I will have to move it back because to keep it at 13, It is turned so far away from the engine that the metal vac line can't reach the cannister). Now, my old issues seem to be back. Stalling in gear at lights, even with the idle set at 1200 rpm, shaky in gear with brake engaged, even the temp is higher than it was. However, bumping up the timing at all make the engine ping...

I swear, I have had it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cfmustang]

Okay.

I am still really frustraighted, but I just read this REALLY informative letter from Pertronx that may explain the rough running. Not the timing, but this may help...

Read this.

I still am really baffle as to why the timing jumped so significantly with this simple mod.

Also, my headers are rattleing something awful. When I was under the car, it appears like the two ends are rattleing together. Has anyone else with Clifford dual outs had this issue?

 

[Lazy JW]

The Pertronox uses a completely different set of components to trigger the spark. It would be totally unreasonable to expect the timing to remain exactly the same. Actually, I would be surprised if it did stay the same. I would suggest leaving the points ignition in until you have the other problems sorted out. No use adding even more variables in the mix. I have used ordinary white adhesive tape on timing pulleys, it lasts quite a while.
Joe

 

[wsa111]

As I stated before, if you want to eliminate the problem scrap the pertronix II.

I have been down this road before, I have a full 12 volts to the unit.

Still has the same problems.

FFFFrigging listen the #II is junk.

If you want to believe the smoke screen they stated, thats up to you.

You still have the same problem-RIGHT

If I was rear ended when I had the II in my mustang, pertronix would be the prime canidate for a lawsuit.

Maybe thats the only way they will recall this junk from us consumers.

Get your money back, before it kills you. William

 

[Anonymous]

HERES A GREAT IDEAL. SET A BOMB UNDER IT

 

[addo]

There was a "Spray on, rinse off" shower cleaner sold here a few years ago that was famously derided for the following line in its instructions:

"For the best results, start with a clean shower"

I see parallels with the P-II. While wsa advocates what may the practical approach to your situation, I want to endorse some of Mr Weaver's comments about voltage supply problems. They are simply not factored in to most people's thoughts.

ALSO, you never paint on an old surface without preparation. It is the same with a car. Why put a new part on an aged sub-assembly and expect perfect results. It doesn't guarantee it by any stretch of the imagination.

Problems with centrifugal advance distributors include:

•The wrong springs and weights installed by rebuilders (documented in this Forum)
•Ageing of the springs
•Wear to the pivot pins, causing erratic advance spring returns
•Sticky grease on the pivots and under the weights
•Lack of lubrication to the bore where the dizzy drive shaft fits inside the cam/rotor drive shaft. This is a real bear.

Personally, I still suspect your cam timing is right off, but at least be totally informed as to the dizzy. I've seen far too many people madly swap one part for another with no real process to compare. In fact, I stopped dealing with one person for this reason.

Not saying "don't", not saying "do", just saying to document and chart it.

Adam.

 

[Lazy JW]

.....Personally, I still suspect your cam timing is right off, but at least be totally informed as to the dizzy. I've seen far too many people madly swap one part for another with no real process to compare. In fact, I stopped dealing with one person for this reason.

Not saying "don't", not saying "do", just saying to document and chart it.

Adam.

I'm with Addo on this one. In any troubleshooting endeavor it is vital to take a systamatic approach, changing only ONE thing at a time, documenting and analyzing results as you go. It may take a few steps yet, but it is very important to eliminate one thing at a time. Stay focused on mapping out the distributor curve so that you can eliminate it out the equation.
Hang in there, you will get it solved yet!
Joe

 

[Anonymous]

I don't remember the exact numbers, but my timing advanced quite a bit when I installed the old style Pertronix.
Doug

 

[cfmustang]

Well,

After having a night to cool off, I guess it makes some sense for the timing to change. You are replacing the points with another unit that may or may not sit in the same spot as the points inside the dizzy. When I get home from work, I am going to do this:

I am going to tie into ignition switch, just to see if it make a difference and gets it back to where it was when the points were in. It should only take a few minutes. If that doesn't work, I'll just put the points back in and regap the plugs. It is doesn't take a lot of work.

However, if I put the points back, should I put the old coil back in or leave in the FlameThrower. Will the hotter coil cook the points?

On a positive note, my control 32/36 (donated for testing purposes by gtm1086 - thanks!) should be arriving today or tomorrow. That should help me eliminate another variable.

 

[Anonymous]

Been reading up on webers .The haynes manual is not very good. This other book is much better. There is discussion of idle problems that sound like yours. I made some notes in the book . If you pm me your address be glade to loan it.

 

[Lazy JW]

I would put the points and old coil back in until it runs better. The hotter coil likely will draw too much for the points and fry them.
Joe

 

[cfmustang]

Yeah, I hooked up the wire to the ignition switch before taking it out to a local cruise last night. Didn't make any noticable difference. Ran great on the freeway, but dieseled and tried to stall at every red light and was worse whenever it was in reverse. This is back to the problem I started with a year ago.

I am going to take a break for a day or two and step away from the car till Saturday. Then, I will put the points and original coil back in and hope that I get back to at least where I was a week ago. Then I will map out the dizzy curve and maybe try the compression test again, although I think my compression gauge is broken.

A month ago, I ran the test and gave the numbers in the earlier post (but did the test incorrectly). A week or so ago I tried again and basically got no numbers. The gauge would go up to around 150 and drop to around 70 and do that over and over and not hold value. Once the engine stop cranking, it would be at zero.

Does that sound like a broken gauge?

 

[addo]

Yes, it sounds as though the gauge's release valve is stuck open.

When it works properly, how the pressure builds is telling. If it jumps up rapidly, then slowly inches towards the top reading, that's fairly normal. If it climbs slowly in more even steps, there's valve issues.

From memory, that's how it reads. Joe will correct me if it's wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Chris,
How is it going? Are you getting any other carb to try with?
My engine now has stronger springs, Sealed Power (Ford 302 exhaust springs 73-75). That took away the 300 deg duration feeling but the rocking where still there. So another carb was borrowed from a friend and with my jets in it ……. It now runs strong and steady on the idle. I have examined the old carb over and over again and cleaned it several times with compressed air and tested the canals with WD-40 just to se that they all worked. However, there’s one big difference between them. On my carb the name Weber is caste into the body and nothing more. On the borrowed one there is also “Bolognaâ€￾ and “Italyâ€￾ caste into it. Witch makes mine a copy manufactured in, at that time, low salary countries such as Hungary and Poland etc. It was produced in 1990 and it is in nearly mint condition. I now remember that the seller (bought it on the net) told me that it has not been used much and I think I understand why. So don’t fall fore a copy carb when you look for that test carb.

Good luck.

Regards

Jonny

 

[cfmustang]

Actually, still waiting for the carb. According to the UPS website, it has been out for delivery from the local hub for three days...

My springs are the double springs from Clifford. Not sure about the numbers for them.

My carb was made about that time, but was purchased from Clifford (hey, back then they were about the only game in town) so I don't know if it is an original or not. I'll take a look tonight.

Hopefully the test carb arrived today. If it did, I'll mount it after I put the points and old coil back in and regap the plugs.

 

[gtm1086]

Chris let me know if the carb has not shown up. This will make the second package lost that I have shipped lately. Hopefully UPS is easier to deal with than FED EX

Gary

 

[Anonymous]

That's funny.....

FedEx has never damaged or lost a packge of mine.

UPS has cost me 8 packages either damaged or lost at a total cost of over $1000. The worst loss was a race prepped C-4 trans with full manual valve body - - made it all the way to Waco (I checked tracking) then it got lost. They are b@stards.

 

[cfmustang]

Nope, still haven't recieved it yet. In fact, if you track it you will see that it sat here in Ohio for days and then got rerouted back to Portland and is now sheduled to be delivered late next week.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining because i just appreciate that you are helping me out, but if I were you I would try and get your money back from UPS. Three weeks for a 5 day delivery should get you your money back...

 

[cfmustang]

Well,

On Saturday, I pulled the Pertronix, put the points and the old coil back in, but it just dawned on me, left the plugs gapped at .45. Anyway, I spent a little more time getting the dwell correct and it started up pretty good. In fact, once I timed it to about 15 degrees initial, it was running pretty good. I was able to put it in gear in reverse and back it out of the garage without stalling at all (at 900 RPM idle too, not the 1200 I was having to keep it at with the Pertronix).

I took it on a ride down about 40 miles round trip to a Saturday night cruse and I will say it ran about as good as it has in a long time. The carb still seems to surge a bit at idle and the engine and exhaust are still shaky, but nowhere near as bad as it was. Also, the timing curve is noticable again. If I get the inital right, it is pinging on accelleration.

However, I have been noticing my throttle lever sticking more and more. Now, on the freeway, half the time I need to pull the pedel back up or it will keep accellerating even when I take my foot off the pedal. Anyone run into that before... It seems to keep getting worse.

Now that the car is running better, I am going to attempt to map the dizzy curve tonight. Should I regap the plug to normal first?

 

[Anonymous]

That's funny.....

FedEx has never damaged or lost a packge of mine.

UPS has cost me 8 packages either damaged or lost at a total cost of over $1000. The worst loss was a race prepped C-4 trans with full manual valve body - - made it all the way to Waco (I checked tracking) then it got lost. They are b@stards.

the employees at the shipping companies must have a side business in transmissions. The local terminals are where things get screwed up. around here UPS is very reliable and Fed Ex has messed up every delivery I've had from them that was larger than a shoe box. I believe i will start insureing anything shipped by any company.