My Budget 250 build

[pmuller9]

The 250 valves are lighter than the 300 valves.
You can use use 110 lbs of seat pressure with a 330 lbs/in spring rate.

The valve springs that fit into that category have ODs 1.440" and larger.

Need to know the spring OD that will fit in the spring pockets in the head?
Need to know what the present installed spring height is?

I'm assuming the rocker arm ratio will be 1.5?

 

[lavron]

I hope you ordered the valve springs needed with that cam?

I have not ordered any yet, I bought through Summit and there were no springs suggested and could not find a recommended spring on Howard's website.

I will probably run the stock rockers because I already have a set of early adjustable ones.

I am using the '69-''72 timing set.

Need to know the spring OD that will fit in the spring pockets in the head?
Need to know what the present installed spring height is?

I'm assuming the rocker arm ratio will be 1.5?

I can measure those, the current springs are '73-'75 302 exhaust with one piece retainers, according to the handbook they are closed 80lb.@1.59" and open 200lb.@1.22" I was trying to stay conservative is why I followed the handbook.

Yes the rockers are stock.

I will go out and measure the springs and post back later.

Just keep in mind I am on a budget so I can't afford anything too pricey, that is not to say I don't want to build my engine well either

BTW: on the 'flat top "M" - was that just the 3, 4 yrs '69 - '72 ?

Not sure I would have to look it up but the 250 was a '77 and had the flat top log as well, I know some later heads have a hex log. Mine just happens to be a off of a '72 200.

See Ya,
Mike

 

[wsa111]

Mike you need to call Howard & or Summit @ does Howard grind their cams straight up or do they grind it with the 4 degrees advance??
All grinders are different you need to check now so you get the advance ground in, or cancel the order & go directly through Howard. Very important cause you have a 250 engine.
If you go through Summit you will probably get a phone monkey.
Thats why i say call Howard.

 

[lavron]

Need to know the spring OD that will fit in the spring pockets in the head?

Not sure how to get an accurate measure on that after going out and looking at it, I measured the springs at 1.352 in diameter.
It looks like maybe a 1/8" behind the valve spring but I couldn't figure out how to measure, I can pull a valve if I need to or maybe get a feeler gauge down in there.

Need to know what the present installed spring height is?

I used some inside dividers and measured them with digital calipers from the base to the bottom of the retainer, I checked several and they were the same but not sure the number is correct but I came up with 1.7035" - 1.704"

The one-piece retainers and the Viton seals are the ones Vintage Inlines sells so I would think the springs are near stock diameter for the Ford six.

If you need me to try again I will, like I said I can pull a valve to get a closer measure on the pocket if needed.

See Ya,
Mike

 

[pmuller9]

If you pull a valve and spring to measure the pocket diameter I would also like to know if the stock spring locator at the base of the valve guide boss is still there or was it machined away. If the locator is still there please measure it's diameter.

If you put the retainer back on the valve and pull up on it without the spring in the way you may be able to get a more confident installed spring height reading from the valve pocket to the bottom of the retainer.

While the spring is out please check how much valve travel till the retainer touches the valve seal

The 1.700" installed spring height has a couple of possible valve springs that will work great.

Thanks for posting pictures. The visual helps.

 

[Econoline]

Wait, what valves are you using again?

 

[pmuller9]

Wait, what valves are you using again?

viewtopic.php?p=625978#p625978

 

[pmuller9]

Here is a problem with the springs that are on the head now.
If they are closed 80lb.@1.59" and open 200lb.@1.22" then the spring rate is 324 lbs/in

If the springs are at 1.700" then closed pressure is only 48 lbs instead of 80 and the open @ .470 for the new cam is only 200.
The 48 lbs closed is below stock spec and certainly won't work for any aftermarket cam.

When you degree the cam if the timing is not correct I will show you where to have a new keyway cut in one of the gears
Your machinist can do it if he has a milling machine with a rotary table or if you have a shop that has an EDM machine.

 

[Econoline]

Is it the retainers that are giving you the extra installed height? I ask b/c I used those same retainers. I did notice my machinist shimmed the springs. It's been so long now I'm sure he won't remember the specifics. Next time I have the valve cover off I'm going to have to measure mine.

These are the recommended Schneider springs for my cam. I thought they would be to stiff for 1.6" installed but @ 1.7 maybe not so much.

http://schneidercams.com/68044valvespringset.aspx

If I did my math right, that spring would yield 106.5# installed @ 1.7" and 280.5# @ .47" lift.

 

[pmuller9]

Your math is right.
The spring rate is 370 lbs/in which is on the heavy side.
We haven't needed over 340 lbs/in on the 240/300 six for the street hydraulic cams.

 

[wsa111]

Need to know the spring OD that will fit in the spring pockets in the head?

Not sure how to get an accurate measure on that after going out and looking at it, I measured the springs at 1.352 in diameter.
It looks like maybe a 1/8" behind the valve spring but I couldn't figure out how to measure, I can pull a valve if I need to or maybe get a feeler gauge down in there.

Need to know what the present installed spring height is?

I used some inside dividers and measured them with digital calipers from the base to the bottom of the retainer, I checked several and they were the same but not sure the number is correct but I came up with 1.7035" - 1.704"

The one-piece retainers and the Viton seals are the ones Vintage Inlines sells so I would think the springs are near stock diameter for the Ford six.

If you need me to try again I will, like I said I can pull a valve to get a closer measure on the pocket if needed.

See Ya,
Mike

Your machinist must have machined the spring seats to get the 1.7 installed height or used keepers with +50 to get that height.
110# seat & 270#-290# open are on the money.

 

[lavron]

Your machinist must have machined the spring seats to get the 1.7 installed height or used keepers with +50 to get that height.

He probably did some machining I would guess, I supplied the keepers and they are just a standard stock set.

The cam had already shipped so I don't know about the 4-degree advance will wait and see what they reply, I guess if not I will move on from there and see about having a keyway cut in one gear like pmuller9 suggests.

Maybe I will luck out and they have them ground with the advance but usually I am not that lucky :roll:

See Ya,
Mike

 

[pmuller9]

Mike

There are 2 valve springs that fall within a good operating range

The above mentioned Schneider spring # 68044 giving you 106 lbs closed @ 1.700" and 280 lbs open with the Howards cam.

Second is the Crane 96803, 107 lbs closed @ 1.700" and 262 lbs open. It's a little more conservative than the Schneider spring and one that has been used on the 300 six.

Have you had the chance to remove a valve spring and recheck retainer height as well as spring seat diameter?

 

[lavron]

Have you had the chance to remove a valve spring and recheck retainer height as well as spring seat diameter?

Not yet I can get out there tomorrow and get those measurements first thing.

Thanks for the suggestions on springs I will check them but wait on making a decision until I get the info up here.

I was looking for a degree wheel and Jegs sells one for around $17, I can't seem to find a rental/loan anywhere local. I will still have to get a dial indicator even though I think there is one around here that was my dad's but have no recollection of where it is right now (if it exists) Trying to avoid paying to much for the equipment I probably never use again (dial indicator I might) I don't have another build on the horizon or anything and as slow and my age I don't think I can do another and take 40 years to work on it/complete it

See Ya,
Mike

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Mike, there are some printable degree wheels that you can find online, see the below link for one that you can input your perfered info in inches such as wheel diameter (up to 24") info is defaulted to inches (un select the inch button for metric) you can also include the cams timing events to make it even easier and add other degree marks. Also I have a degree wheel and a dial indicator I could lend you if you can't find yours. Good luck

Printable Degree Wheel
https://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheeleng.aspx

 

[lavron]

I have a degree wheel and a dial indicator I could lend you if you can't find yours.

I may take you up on that if I can't find dad's, I would pay you a little rental for your trouble as well, I will let you know.

What else would I need? A solid lifter? I can probably pick one of those up if I need too or look around for one of the original hydraulic ones that were in the engine and gut it. 200 and 250 lifters are the same aren't they?

Thanks.

See Ya,
Mike

 

[bubba22349]

Yes a solid lifter would do the job or yes you can also gut the spring out an old Hydrolic lifter stack some washers or a Rod etc. To turn it into a solid. I have an old Hydrolic lifter that I welded a hex headed bolt in for use in degreeing cams. Right the 144, 170, 200, & 250's all use the same diameter lifters and so do many other Ford engines like an FE V8 352, 390, 427.

 

[pmuller9]

You will need the dial indicator with magnetic base.
This is one of the least expensive sets and will get the job done.
The turn screws will strip if you're not careful.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900016-1

These are the Howards lifters that match the cam in case you ordered cam only.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-91251-12

Add the two together for free shipping.

If you are doing the printable wheel enter these valve timing points for the Howards cam which represent the cam 4 degrees advanced.
Intake Opens 4.5* BTDC
Intake Closes 36.5 ATDC
Exhaust Opens 44.5* BBDC
Exhaust Closes -3.5 ATDC (don't forget the minus sign)

Otherwise I like this 11" wheel from Summit
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g1057-16

 

[lavron]

These are the Howards lifters that match the cam in case you ordered cam only.

I already have a new set of lifters I was asking about having something to use when degreeing the cam.

Looks like a good deal on the degree wheel too, cheaper than Jegs if I have enough in the cart for free shipping, I think Jegs wants $17 but $9 added for shipping and handling.

See Ya,
Mike

 

[lavron]

I was looking a little more at the Howard's cam on Summit and see this is the recommended springs that Howard's has on their website;

Howards Valve Springs

Not sure if these would be of consideration as well?

See Ya,
Mike