Source of Oil Leak...What is this?

[Anonymous]

Back to the saga of the oil leak(s)...

The original leak was primarily out of the inspection plate, so I replaced the rear main seal. First attempt was unsuccessful. Second attempt stopped the leak from that area completely.

Now, after driving on the highway for a few minutes, I still get a substantial leak, but not from the inspection plate area. There is a "vent" or manifold that is bolted to the driver's side of the bell housing. It is about 4"x3" , shaped like an "L" and faces rearward. That is where 100% of hte oil is leaking from now after driving on the highway. What is this thing?

I originally suspected the oil leak was blow-by, but now I'm not so sure because I have no idea what this vent is and why the oil would be leaking from that spot. It's obviously running down into the bell housing from somewhere else and finding its way to this vent.

Any thoughts? Is the rear main still leaking, just from a higher location so it's singing back to this vent?

 

[Anonymous]

I found a diagram of the Fordomatic for the 223 and the vent that I was referring to is just that - a vent. The 223 Fordomatic is air cooled and this brings air into the bell housing to cool the tranny. This vent is where the oil is leaking.

This makes me think it is still the rear main. What elase could be leaking from the engine into the bell housing and then dripping out? Maybe I just "moved" the leak to a higher part of the seal because it's not leaking from the lower inspection play anymore.

Now, I'm back to thinking it's the rear main due to slop in the crank. I may replace the bearings just to see if it helps. Then again, a proper rebuild would just end all of my WAG's.

Any thoughts?

 

[flatford6]

Is it actually engine oil? It could be purple automatic trans fluid or worse, it could be brown or black burned ATF which even smells burnt and looks like drain oil. Those old aircooled translmissions if that is what it is can get the screen plugged up with oil and dirt causing the trans to get hot and burn the fluid. If it is ATF leaking it can come from the front seal of the trans or if you have the oldstyle air cooled bolt together converter there is an o-ring that seals the outside of the converter that sometimes leaks. Over heated oil can cook the rubber in the front seal and/or the converter o-ring causing them to become hardened and they will leak. We used to use these transmissions in farm forklifts and had a lot of trouble with them. The water cooled later models were better.

 

[Anonymous]

Funny you mentioned that (not really).

I pulled the transmission pan to reseal it with that orange Toyota FIPG sealer. What did I find in the bottom of the tranny pan? Little pieces of rubber. Must be what you said. The fluid is brownish, like you mentioned. It was fairly brown/dark purple in the pan. It would also explain that my oil level has barely changed after driving almost 250 miles today...but my tranny fluid level is low.

So, what next? Drop the tranny and change the convertor o-ring and front pump seal? Have I damaged the transmission? I would assume so to some degree since the fluid was basically cooking. It was BROWN.

So, I am faced with a few options:
1. Replace the front pump seal and torque convertor o-ring (the front pump is new, so it may just the the o-ring)
2. Repalce/rebuild the tranny with the same kind
3. Upgrade to a fluid cooled Fordomatic
4. Swap out to something like a C4 (using an adapter)

What's your vote?

I guess the silver lining is that I did a good job replacing the rear main seal! It isn't leaking a drop.

 

[flatford6]

The easy, quick,and dirty fix to try first is to drain the converter by removing the bottom front sheet metal cover on the bell housing and then rotate the converter until one of the 1/8th inch plugs in on the bottom and remove the plug to drain the converter. Replace the plug when drained, then replace the pan on the trans. DO NOT EVER use any kind of sealer on the gasket. Little bits of sealer can get in the ATF and plug up any number of passages in the trans. That could be those rubber bits you mentioned. Refill trans with type F ATF. Run and top off. A product that I have had good luck with is Solder Seal GUNK Transeal automatic transmission conditioner and sealer. It comes in a yellow 12 oz pour bottle. It softens up and expands the rubber parts such as seals and o-rings in transmissions. The lucky part for you in all this is that the transmission still shifts into all the gears. Our experience with burnt ATF in these transmissions is that after a while it won't go into one or more gears. The next problem is to solve the ATF overheating problem. With the car running , in park, and blocked, try to feel if you have air going in or coming out of the vent you mentioned. There are two vents, one in and one out. One if I remember right has four 5/16th bolts holding it on and is screened. Are you sure you have the air cooled trans in your car? Are there any oil lines running from the passenger side and rear of the trans to the bottom of the radiator? If you have to replace the front seal, you should check the front pump also. The bushings in the pump tend to wear and then chew the pump up. Also be advised that the converter o ring is something that was very hard to get. Maybe you should have one in hand before tearing everything down. There are also two bands that can be adjusted, one inside the pan. You should have a trans repair manual for that. Good luck.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the tips!

I'll try the drain the converter and refill deal tomorrow with some of that Solder Seal. So, there's a chance that could help with the leak?

The front pump is brand new and came with a front seal, so I would be surprised if that seal burned up already. I only have about 500 miles on it since it was installed.

It is definitely air cooled. No cooler lines and no trans cooler of any kind. I also looked in my shop manual and it says the 1957 223 tranny was air cooled on the Fairlane/Custom.

 

[Anonymous]

The converter drives the front pump of the trans through two ears that stick out of the back of the converter and engage the inside gear of the pump which is inside of the seal. If the drive ears of the converter line up perfectlly with the drive lugs on the pump gear they will prevent the trans from seating completely on the bell housing or mounting surface on the back of the engine depending on how you are putting it together. The best way is to look inside the trans front seal and set the lugs vertically. Then, turn the engine until the ears on the converter are horozontal. This will allow everything to engage right. The transmission must be put in carefully and straight or the ears on the converter will tear the seal and it will leak profusely.

I was looking back at my old thread when I was having trouble getting my engine and tranny to mate up. The above was copied from one of your responses. I bet that's EXACTLY what happened!

 

[flatford6]

Was the ATF drained and refilled when the front pump and seal was changed? If so, the oil got burnt in 500 miles. Something is wrong with the transmission oil cooling system. Is there air flow into and out of the bell housing. If not, something is plugged or perhaps someone has changed to the 1956 and up water cooled converter and transmission but didn't hook up the piping from the trans to the bottom of the radiator. A sure check would be to look at or feel the outside of the converter through the starter hole or maybe through the bolt on air scoop we discussed earlier. Air cooled converters are made of aluminum behind the flexplate and front cover. It has cast in fins like a flathead v8 racing head. Water cooled converters are made of smooth steel. If I remember right, overheating can also be caused by a slipping converter clutch or slipping front and rear bands even if the cooling system is working properly. Good luck

 

[Anonymous]

It was completely drained and refilled when the pump was changed. When I drained the fluid this time, from the pan and the torque convertor, I clecked the air cooling vents and they were pretty gunked up with leaves and other garbage. The screen was blocked pretty badly. I thoroughly cleaned both vents after draining the torque convertor and refilled everything with fresh Type F and a quart of Lucas Transmission Conditioner. I couldn't fund the Gunk product mentioned in an earlier post.

I have driven another 150 miles or so since I did all of that and I'm still leaking, but it appears that the tranny is running cooler. The leak is purple and looks and smells exactly like clean Type F.

Concerning the air cooled vs. fluid cooled, I definitely have fins and no cooler lines anywhere. I wonder if I can add cooler lines? I am plannig on replacing my radiator anyway, so I could always account for that with the new one if it's possible.

I am leaning toward just having the tranny rebuilt or maybe swapping in a C4. I live less than an hour from Broader Performance Transmissions, and I got a quote for the Fordomatic rebuild. It's pretty reasonable, but I need to decide if I want to spend a little more and go with the C4. I'm not real sure at this point if it's worth the hassle to do the C4 swap.

 

[flatford6]

Since you have the aircooled transmission, it may or may not have the tapped holes to accomodate llines to the radiator. The water cooled transmission cases are tapped on the lower front passenger side and the return fluid from the converter is discharged through this hole and goes to the radiator and is returned into the trans through another hole on the passenger side of the rear of the trans case. I don't know if you have both of these holes in your trans case and even if you do, probably the air cooled transmissions are not plumbed internally to direct the return fluid from the converter into the output hole. Ask your transmission guy. If you have your trans overhauled, make sure the guy understands that the converter o-ring needs to be replaced. Years ago, we had a lot of problems getting those O-rings. Good luck.

 

[Anonymous]

I talked to Broader Performance again and they can convert mine to a fluid cooled system when they rebuild it. He also strongly recommended not converting to a C4. He said the gains or minimal, if at all, and they they can made a Fordomatic extremely reliable in their remanufacturing process, even adding some performance enhancements.

So, it looks like the Fordo is getting remanufactured and I'm going to order a new radiator.

 

[flatford6]

The rebuild should solve all your trans problems. If not, the rebuilder should guarantee his work. I would suggest having him do the remove and replace of the transmission. It seems like a shame to rebuild a working transmission, though. One other problem I remember with those transmissions is that the two ears on the back of the converter, the ears that drive the center gear of the front pump would wear on an angle and put end thrust on the center gear which would cause the center gear to wear into the back of its housing. The part with the ears is a cast iron piece that bolts to the center of the aluminum finned back part of the converter. Better make sure that is available before you start. Also, you might not have to replace the radiator if it is working well at cooling the engine. you could put an appropriate sized aftermarket oil cooler in front of the existing radiator. It would not have to big, because most of the cooling is already being done by the finned converter. Ask the trans rebuilder as to size. While you have the bell housing off make sure the passages for the air are unobstructed. Even though you cleaned the screen and vent there could be more stuff in the bell housing passages. They might be able to modify the trans to start out in low gear like a real transmission rather than the second gear start that you have now. That really helps accelleration from a stop.

 

[Anonymous]

I found out a little more information on my transmission tonight. While I was keeping it at my buddy's house for the engine swap, he was working on it trying to get it ready as a surprise for my birthday a few months ago. While the engine was out, he noticed that the front pump's ears were broken and the torque converter was in bad shape. He installed a new front pump and found a rebuilt converter. However, the converter he found must have been for a fluid cooled tranny, so the place where he bought it took my old one and used part of it and part of the rebuilt one. I'm assuming they used the finned side of my old one becuase I can see the cooling fins in there.

So, I am thinking that either the frankenstein converter is the source of my leak OR they forgot to put the inner o-ring in there. My instinct is just to replace the converter completely before I rebuild the whole tranny or at least take it out and see of the inner o-ring is missing.

I also tried the semi-manual shift trick, starting in Low and then quickly shifting from Drive back to Low to keep in in 2nd, then into Drive again to go into 3rd. It works GREAT and I got the hand of it after a few tries.

That's the thing, too. This tranny shifts really well, so I would hate to rebuild it if all I really need to do is find the source of the leak.

 

[flatford6]

If memory serves, there was only 1 year, 1956, that used a bolt together converter that was water cooled and that was with v-8s. In 1957 they changed to a welded together water cooled converter at least in the v-8 models. In the aircooled converters, the pump drive with the ears was a bolt in cast iron unit. 1956 and later water cooled units had the pump drive made of steel and welded into the converter. I think the 223 used the air cooled converter for several more years after the v-8s started to use the water cooled converters. Anyway the air cooled converter cast iron pump drives that tended to wear, also tended to develop real sharp edges on the wear side that, if not smoothed and rounded real carefully, easily cut front seals as the front of the trans was inserted into the converter. I used to insert a CLEAN, non linty rag into the hole in the converter and then generously round all the sharp surfaces. As to your friend changing the pump drive, if I remember right the converter has to be taken apart to change it as the drive changes from the inside. There is some kind of a gasket or oring involved in that. Also I had no luck reusing the large converter o-ring that seals the two large parts of the converter. They take a set and end up looking tri-angular in cross sectionand fail to seal. Even a fairly good looking one, if you bent it sharply, showed tiny cracks would leak under oil pressure caused by the centrifugual force of a rapidly spinning converter. Ask your friend if he put a new o-ring in when he replaced the pump drive and if he rounded the ears. There is also a gasket or o-ring sealing the front pump to the trans case. Taking apart those converters can also raise the possibility of reinstalling the stator backwards if I remember right. You need a trans manual to make sure it is installed correctly. It should also have the overrunning clutch in the stator inspected. If the overrunning clutch is installed backward or slipping, you get low top speed and over heated trans fluid. You have both of those problems.

 

[Daves55Courier]

Dave I didnt read all these, so there may be some overlap in suggestions.
Overheating:
On your driver side of the bellhousing there should be a funny shaped sheet metal duct with 4 bolts holding the duct flange to the bellhousing. At that flange there needs to be a ratwire screen/gasket sandwiched between the duct flange and the bellhousing. Also very important there should be a funny shaped metal air deflector plate bolted to 2 bolts at the rear extension housing to trans case flange. This deflector scoops air passing under the car and pressurizes the air so it goes into the converter intake duct. If any of those parts are missing, that could be the cause of you trans overheating.

Fluid leak. Be careful when you buy your front pump seal. The small case Ford-O front pump hub is different from the medium case hub and requires a different size seal if I remember correctly.
Also if you allow your Ford-O to set a few months without tuning over, the uppermost portion of the converter O-ring seal will no longer be immersed in fluid and can shrink over time. They will expand again upon use, but you have to put up with a leak for a while till the O-ring can have time to expand again.

 

[Daves55Courier]

I read some more of the posts.
APD transmission parts in Atlanta Georgia should have everything you need for your rebuild, even some hard parts. Also Northwest Transmission is a good source if you want to get your own kit without paying a markup at the rebuilder.
Theres a very few old guys still alive that still know the old Ford-O's like the back of their hands. Theyre rapidly dwindling in numbers. The few I've known and talked at length with have never had anything but good things to say about the Ford-O-matic. You'd have to pay me to take my Ford-O to one of these chain xmission repair shops. Some of those guys leave half the parts off. Duh !