I had the same symptoms with my first car (1976 Slomaro...Camaro). The dizzy hold down was the wrong thickness and the mounting boss cast into the intake manifold was cracked. Darn dizzy kept loosening and the car would just die. It needed a new timing chain also.
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Anonymous
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I pulled out fan shroud and radiator so I could get a wrench on the crankshaft bolt. There is actually nearly zero lag time between how long it takes for the bolt to turn the rotor. I will turn it one way and then I switch to the other direction and the rotor follows right along with basically no hesitation.
WTF?
Sure seems like a bad chain would have some lag time. I guess I need to pull the cover anyways? I don't want to go there if not necessary...
Also I have confirmed yet again, compression stroke, rotor at #1 wire, TDC showing at damper...
WTF?
Sure seems like a bad chain would have some lag time. I guess I need to pull the cover anyways? I don't want to go there if not necessary...
Also I have confirmed yet again, compression stroke, rotor at #1 wire, TDC showing at damper...
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Anonymous
Guest
Stupid question here...
Is the plate the points are mounted on moving around too much?
You mention it's a new or reman dizzy, but it could still be happening.
Also, I don't recall specifics on the LOM system, but is it vacuum AND centrifigul advance? If so is it possible that the plate is changing position from a weight sticking?
It could always "free" itself up when you start messing with it, leaving a "no problem found" result.
Just a thought...
Is the plate the points are mounted on moving around too much?
You mention it's a new or reman dizzy, but it could still be happening.
Also, I don't recall specifics on the LOM system, but is it vacuum AND centrifigul advance? If so is it possible that the plate is changing position from a weight sticking?
It could always "free" itself up when you start messing with it, leaving a "no problem found" result.
Just a thought...
Cam walk is still a possible, but you'd have to pull the timing cover to check it. This could occur from camshaft retainer bolts backing out the block, as happened to AzCoupe. In fact, that was the beginning of Classic Inlines, to some extent - the search was on for a better timing set!
Could you quantify the timing change in degrees, please? I mean, post the timing when its running OK at idle, then post the timing when it's changed and will not start? I mean, using a strobe in both instances.
Could you quantify the timing change in degrees, please? I mean, post the timing when its running OK at idle, then post the timing when it's changed and will not start? I mean, using a strobe in both instances.
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Anonymous
Guest
addo":5fowgnho said:
Well I don't think I could do that even when it was together. I tried to read the timing just by cranking the car (when it would not start) and using the light but I couldn't get it to work. I just had to move the distributor around little by little until it would finally start. Seems like sometimes it needs to be advanced sometimes the other way.
I guess I'm going to pull the timing cover since I have already pulled the radiator and drive belts etc. Although, it probably is fine in there since it is a fairly new rebuild and the rotor has no lag time.
Would you go ahead and pull the timing cover?
If so, should I use some kind of puller on the crank bolt?
Thanks again for all the help!!
You need to be a little cautious on the front cover. Firstly the seal is centred on the crank; aligning is pretty critical upon reinstall. Secondly you also will need some new seals - the lower piece against the sump, and the timing cover gasket itself.
Also there is pulling the damper - a tough one. Cracking the bolt is easy, hold the socket firmly on the bolt with one hand and rap hard/sharply on the cheater bar with your 3 pound hammer. It's a regular thread. Leave the bolt installed, but with 1/8" underhead clearance when pulling the damper or you will mess up the damper bolt threads with the puller "point". Once the damper moves an eighth, take off the puller, back the bolt out another eighth, reinstall damper and repeat... Eventually it will come off. Clean the key and keyway, too. Did the rebuild shop fit your oil slinger back on there?
You now need all the plugs out to continue. Crank the motor over by hand (not with the starter) until the timing dots are aligned and check they are exactly so, as per the handbook. As the upper sprocket rotates, eyeball the two camshaft retainer bolts and check they are fully tight. With some effort (but not being silly and damaging the gasket faces) try prying the camshaft forward with a flatblade screwdriver behind the chain/sprocket. Now try tapping it back. Total movement should be less than 5 thousandths.
Getting back to timing lights: A simple inductive timing light should flash at any cranking speed. It "feels" a spark, and flashes instantly in response. To test the motor without starting it, you need the plug leads all grounded out on the motor, and away from their spark plugs. However, the coil lead must remain connected as normal.
In all seriousness, what type of timing light are you using, and can you be sure it's working properly?
Also there is pulling the damper - a tough one. Cracking the bolt is easy, hold the socket firmly on the bolt with one hand and rap hard/sharply on the cheater bar with your 3 pound hammer. It's a regular thread. Leave the bolt installed, but with 1/8" underhead clearance when pulling the damper or you will mess up the damper bolt threads with the puller "point". Once the damper moves an eighth, take off the puller, back the bolt out another eighth, reinstall damper and repeat... Eventually it will come off. Clean the key and keyway, too. Did the rebuild shop fit your oil slinger back on there?
You now need all the plugs out to continue. Crank the motor over by hand (not with the starter) until the timing dots are aligned and check they are exactly so, as per the handbook. As the upper sprocket rotates, eyeball the two camshaft retainer bolts and check they are fully tight. With some effort (but not being silly and damaging the gasket faces) try prying the camshaft forward with a flatblade screwdriver behind the chain/sprocket. Now try tapping it back. Total movement should be less than 5 thousandths.
Getting back to timing lights: A simple inductive timing light should flash at any cranking speed. It "feels" a spark, and flashes instantly in response. To test the motor without starting it, you need the plug leads all grounded out on the motor, and away from their spark plugs. However, the coil lead must remain connected as normal.
In all seriousness, what type of timing light are you using, and can you be sure it's working properly?
A
Anonymous
Guest
addo":1egybqvi said:You need to be a little cautious on the front cover. Firstly the seal is centred on the crank; aligning is pretty critical upon reinstall. Secondly you also will need some new seals - the lower piece against the sump, and the timing cover gasket itself.
Also there is pulling the damper - a tough one. Cracking the bolt is easy, hold the socket firmly on the bolt with one hand and rap hard/sharply on the cheater bar with your 3 pound hammer. It's a regular thread. Leave the bolt installed, but with 1/8" underhead clearance when pulling the damper or you will mess up the damper bolt threads with the puller "point". Once the damper moves an eighth, take off the puller, back the bolt out another eighth, reinstall damper and repeat... Eventually it will come off. Clean the key and keyway, too. Did the rebuild shop fit your oil slinger back on there?
You now need all the plugs out to continue. Crank the motor over by hand (not with the starter) until the timing dots are aligned and check they are exactly so, as per the handbook. As the upper sprocket rotates, eyeball the two camshaft retainer bolts and check they are fully tight. With some effort (but not being silly and damaging the gasket faces) try prying the camshaft forward with a flatblade screwdriver behind the chain/sprocket. Now try tapping it back. Total movement should be less than 5 thousandths.
Getting back to timing lights: A simple inductive timing light should flash at any cranking speed. It "feels" a spark, and flashes instantly in response. To test the motor without starting it, you need the plug leads all grounded out on the motor, and away from their spark plugs. However, the coil lead must remain connected as normal.
In all seriousness, what type of timing light are you using, and can you be sure it's working properly?
Hey Addo,
Please clarify this:
"To test the motor without starting it, you need the plug leads all grounded out on the motor, and away from their spark plugs. However, the coil lead must remain connected as normal."
What exactly am I supposed to do? How do I ground plug leads out to motor? I tried it with all plug wires on while cranking with one of those start button things and pointing the gun at it. This is with the key off.
The timing light is about 3 months old. It is just a basic one that cost about $40.00. I'm sure it works correctly.
I am probably going to put the radiator back in, get yet another distributor in case I got another bad one. I will do what you said and see exactly where the timing is going. I will wait to take of timing cover. Should be a new chain anyways and as I mentioned the rotor has no lag time...
Is there anything else I can do now while I have the raditor out and easy access to the crank bolt? Another type of test or something? I don't mind taking all the plugs out if that will allow some type of test. I also have the valve cover off....Any ideas?
OK, that's why you weren't getting a reading at cranking. The starter button (really a jump switch) doesn't energise the points.
What I mean by grounding out all six of the plug leads, is to pull them off the spark plugs, slide the boots back (if you can) and then wedge the lead ends against some unpainted metal nearby on the motor. Leave the other ends normally positioned in the distributor cap.
Then use your starter button with the ordinary keyswitch ON. The coil/points will be energised, and the rotor still sending current down the plug leads. This will trigger your timing light. However, because none of the sparks reach a plug, there's no risk of the car starting. You could try this with the radiator still out.
No need for another distributor yet. One test at a time. It's not a "dial back" timing light, is it?
What I mean by grounding out all six of the plug leads, is to pull them off the spark plugs, slide the boots back (if you can) and then wedge the lead ends against some unpainted metal nearby on the motor. Leave the other ends normally positioned in the distributor cap.
Then use your starter button with the ordinary keyswitch ON. The coil/points will be energised, and the rotor still sending current down the plug leads. This will trigger your timing light. However, because none of the sparks reach a plug, there's no risk of the car starting. You could try this with the radiator still out.
No need for another distributor yet. One test at a time. It's not a "dial back" timing light, is it?
60s Refugee
Well-known member
You know, if the mechanizm that drives the distributor is moving out of time, then each time you reset the timing the distributor will be in a different place; the distributor would be moving farther and farther around. Eventually the distributor would be turned a full 360! If you are setting the distributor back in near the same spot every time then it IS the distributor that is doing moving and not what drives it.
So...WTF? Well, Not seeing the thing myself I can only guess. First quess, you are getting the wrong distributor. I bought a rebuilt one from CAR QUEST. It has a part number that had been superceeded several times. It was a FoMoCo distributor, but it was wrong. Wrong shaft size, wrong body size, wrong advance vac line fitting but the drive gear was correct. I took it back. They gave me another one just like it! So, I mixed and matched till I found the right cap and rotor that would fit it, and used the old vac advance over. The engine would start and run, but it never was quite right. So...I went to NPD and got the right one. No problems since.
Next guess, the hold down is wrong. It could be upside down, bent, or just wrong, or won't hold the wrong type distributor that you might have. Maybe the bolt is stripped out enough that it will tighten up but won't hold.
Finally, I had one that kept going out of time years ago when the bearing was going dry. I never oiled it so the result was the shaft was trying to seize up. Every time it stuck, it moved the distributor. It finally went bad. The rest of the car sucked too, so I junked the whole Mustang. A dreadful thought these days, but we did it all the time back in the 80's!
Bottom line is, if you are putting the distributor back where it was each time, then it is the distributor that's doing the moving. Find out why!
Harry
So...WTF? Well, Not seeing the thing myself I can only guess. First quess, you are getting the wrong distributor. I bought a rebuilt one from CAR QUEST. It has a part number that had been superceeded several times. It was a FoMoCo distributor, but it was wrong. Wrong shaft size, wrong body size, wrong advance vac line fitting but the drive gear was correct. I took it back. They gave me another one just like it! So, I mixed and matched till I found the right cap and rotor that would fit it, and used the old vac advance over. The engine would start and run, but it never was quite right. So...I went to NPD and got the right one. No problems since.
Next guess, the hold down is wrong. It could be upside down, bent, or just wrong, or won't hold the wrong type distributor that you might have. Maybe the bolt is stripped out enough that it will tighten up but won't hold.
Finally, I had one that kept going out of time years ago when the bearing was going dry. I never oiled it so the result was the shaft was trying to seize up. Every time it stuck, it moved the distributor. It finally went bad. The rest of the car sucked too, so I junked the whole Mustang. A dreadful thought these days, but we did it all the time back in the 80's!
Bottom line is, if you are putting the distributor back where it was each time, then it is the distributor that's doing the moving. Find out why!
Harry
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Anonymous
Guest
Ok...I can do that. No it is not a dial back light.
I'm going to have to wait until Monday before any further car tests. Need to start fresh. Likelihood of wrench going through windshield reaching approximately 90%...TOTALLY FRIED...AND ANGRY
I know when I'm beat. Need to go to beach tomorrow + have fun. (it would be nice if I could drive car to beach. HA HA HA... insane laughter)
I do appreciate the help. Will be back with results on Monday!
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Just saw your post 60s Refugee, thanks. I replaced the existing distributor with another rebuild. Appears to be correct. I have checked and re-checked the hold down...I am going to get ANOTHER rebuilt distributor just incase...
:
I'm going to have to wait until Monday before any further car tests. Need to start fresh. Likelihood of wrench going through windshield reaching approximately 90%...TOTALLY FRIED...AND ANGRY
I know when I'm beat. Need to go to beach tomorrow + have fun. (it would be nice if I could drive car to beach. HA HA HA... insane laughter)
I do appreciate the help. Will be back with results on Monday!
--------------------------------------------------
Just saw your post 60s Refugee, thanks. I replaced the existing distributor with another rebuild. Appears to be correct. I have checked and re-checked the hold down...I am going to get ANOTHER rebuilt distributor just incase...
:grocery getter
Famous Member
have you tried to time it with the vacuum line disconnected and keep it off?
at least that will rule out the vacuum circuit.
are you having to move the dist. back and forth or do you keep turning it same direction?
the best way to check a stretched chain is when you have the timing light hooked up, rev the motor then let it go back to idle. you'll see the mark go retarded then recover back to you're set point.
at least that will rule out the vacuum circuit.
are you having to move the dist. back and forth or do you keep turning it same direction?
the best way to check a stretched chain is when you have the timing light hooked up, rev the motor then let it go back to idle. you'll see the mark go retarded then recover back to you're set point.
BIGREDRASA":3p3v29fm said:
One thing you need to do in these cases is to carefully write down everything you, when you do it.
Use white letter paint to mark the harmonic balancer in 5* increments, and mark the block and dizzy base with your starting point, then a different marking for each changed point. Take photos & write.
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Anonymous
Guest
grocery getter":33o8zr1q said:
"the best way to check a stretched chain is when you have the timing light hooked up, rev the motor then let it go back to idle. you'll see the mark go retarded then recover back to you're set point"
I noticed this. When I reved the motor with timing light hooked up it did advance then go retarded before returning to normal...I wasn't sure if that was normal or not. Are you sure about this?
It seems like I should go ahead and pull the timing chain cover. Maybe it is a bad chain even though there is no lag time on rotor?
I hate to put the radiator back in etc. make all the marks on the damper spend all this time messing around and it may just be a bad chain!?
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Anonymous
Guest
I once had a problem with a wondering timing mark. My symptoms were a little different then yours but, like you I had reach the point where I was persuaded that it must be timing chain related because I had eliminated everything else, or so I had thought.
My symptoms were that the car was hard to start but once started it idle fairly smoothly. Out on the road it would appear to run ok as long as the speed was constant, however when you changed speeds it would bog down or hesitate and if you came to a complete stop it would often stall out and be almost impossible to start again, particularly when the engine was hot.
I had checked the points and the timing numerous times and they were always right on. At some point I discovered that my problems were much worse when the car was hot versus when it was cold. So one day I put a timing light on it when I first started the car and held it there and observed what happen as the car warmed up. Initially, my timing mark would be stable but at some point it would start to wonder up and down. It was even more dramatic if you popped the throttle but if you increased the rpms and held it there it would tend to stabilize somewhat.
I tried various timing setting but it didn’t seem to make much difference where it was set as the timing mark would still wonder once the car started to warmed up. Then one day I notice what looked like aluminum powder on the distributor right below the cap. I took off the cap and there was the same residue inside as well. Upon inspection I discovered that the point arm had a crack in it, going from the bottom to about haft way up. Apparently, as the car warmed it had an effect on the remaining rigidity of the arm and that cause my problem. New set of points and the problem went away.
I don’t know how well I explain this but hopefully you get the thrust of it.
For what its worth
My symptoms were that the car was hard to start but once started it idle fairly smoothly. Out on the road it would appear to run ok as long as the speed was constant, however when you changed speeds it would bog down or hesitate and if you came to a complete stop it would often stall out and be almost impossible to start again, particularly when the engine was hot.
I had checked the points and the timing numerous times and they were always right on. At some point I discovered that my problems were much worse when the car was hot versus when it was cold. So one day I put a timing light on it when I first started the car and held it there and observed what happen as the car warmed up. Initially, my timing mark would be stable but at some point it would start to wonder up and down. It was even more dramatic if you popped the throttle but if you increased the rpms and held it there it would tend to stabilize somewhat.
I tried various timing setting but it didn’t seem to make much difference where it was set as the timing mark would still wonder once the car started to warmed up. Then one day I notice what looked like aluminum powder on the distributor right below the cap. I took off the cap and there was the same residue inside as well. Upon inspection I discovered that the point arm had a crack in it, going from the bottom to about haft way up. Apparently, as the car warmed it had an effect on the remaining rigidity of the arm and that cause my problem. New set of points and the problem went away.
I don’t know how well I explain this but hopefully you get the thrust of it.
For what its worth
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Anonymous
Guest
Thanks for the info....
I took the timing cover off today. Chain looks loose. Trying to figure out the correct way to check tension?
Looks like it is right about 1/2 of slack.
The little dots on the gears do line up. Two bolts at front of cam are tight.
Bolts holding timing cover on were like finger tight! Must have rattled loose?
Here are a couple pics. Does this look like a newer style chain? Wondering if it was changed during the rebuild.
Also see the wear in the gear. Does that look normal? Thanks.
I took the timing cover off today. Chain looks loose. Trying to figure out the correct way to check tension?
Looks like it is right about 1/2 of slack.
The little dots on the gears do line up. Two bolts at front of cam are tight.
Bolts holding timing cover on were like finger tight! Must have rattled loose?
Here are a couple pics. Does this look like a newer style chain? Wondering if it was changed during the rebuild.
Also see the wear in the gear. Does that look normal? Thanks.
That's an OEM-style chain/gears; possibly even the original. I have a low mileage six here, and the tooth wear is less than you show. The other possibility is the shop put a new chain to old gears and they don't quite match.
There is always some slop in a chain; the lower side is your tension one. But you can see now, just how much wear is needed to actually let the chain skip a tooth! It would be massive.
Now - getting back to those wear marks - possibly the chain is riding up the sprockets at times which might cause a small fluctuation in timing.
However, most engines will start and run with time between about six advanced and as much retarded. Could you get twelve crank degrees of variation with that wear? Probably not.
Was the oil slinger in there? It is a cupped pressed metal washer about 2" diameter, that fits on the crank just behind the timing cover.
When the two timing gear dots align, the imaginary line they create should also pass through the centreline of both the crank and cam.
When refitting the timing cover, if the crank seal is still pretty good, grease it liberally with moly grease or teflon paste before slipping it on. also use a little Permatex #3 on the lower (rubber) seal ends where it meets the cork gasket - or if the cork is chunked away then use some slow curing silicone gasket sealant. Set the timing cover in place and pin it with three or four bolts not even finger tight, to allow a little wiggling.
Grease the balancer rubbing surface, and refit the balancer carefully before tightening the cover bolts. The most important thing you want, is for the timing cover to "float" evenly about that balancer. This gives the best possible oil sealing. The timing cover bolts are not really tight - check your factory manual.
There is always some slop in a chain; the lower side is your tension one. But you can see now, just how much wear is needed to actually let the chain skip a tooth! It would be massive.
Now - getting back to those wear marks - possibly the chain is riding up the sprockets at times which might cause a small fluctuation in timing.
However, most engines will start and run with time between about six advanced and as much retarded. Could you get twelve crank degrees of variation with that wear? Probably not.
Was the oil slinger in there? It is a cupped pressed metal washer about 2" diameter, that fits on the crank just behind the timing cover.
When the two timing gear dots align, the imaginary line they create should also pass through the centreline of both the crank and cam.
When refitting the timing cover, if the crank seal is still pretty good, grease it liberally with moly grease or teflon paste before slipping it on. also use a little Permatex #3 on the lower (rubber) seal ends where it meets the cork gasket - or if the cork is chunked away then use some slow curing silicone gasket sealant. Set the timing cover in place and pin it with three or four bolts not even finger tight, to allow a little wiggling.
Grease the balancer rubbing surface, and refit the balancer carefully before tightening the cover bolts. The most important thing you want, is for the timing cover to "float" evenly about that balancer. This gives the best possible oil sealing. The timing cover bolts are not really tight - check your factory manual.
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Anonymous
Guest
Thanks addo...Here is another pick. With the wrench shown I can move the sprocket a little less than an 1/8 in back and forth. Loosening and tightening the chain (not moving the other gear). Should the cam have this much play back and forth?
Yes, the oil slinger was in there and postitioned correctly.
So I need to change this chain + gears right? It has as least 1/2 of slop maybe even 5/8 or so...
I checked cam end play with screw driver and it does not seem to move front to back so that is good I guess.
Maybe this is my problem??
Yes, the oil slinger was in there and postitioned correctly.
So I need to change this chain + gears right? It has as least 1/2 of slop maybe even 5/8 or so...
I checked cam end play with screw driver and it does not seem to move front to back so that is good I guess.
Maybe this is my problem??
Just like I prognosticated above, that chain looks perfectly fine.
It may not have been replaced when the motor was rebuilt, but that chain is NOT your problem.
Maybe the reason you get so frazzled working on the car is because you don't listen to people who know about such things and insist on making more work for yourself
Have fun putting that all back together and keeping it from leaking...
It may not have been replaced when the motor was rebuilt, but that chain is NOT your problem.
Maybe the reason you get so frazzled working on the car is because you don't listen to people who know about such things and insist on making more work for yourself
Have fun putting that all back together and keeping it from leaking...