updated...TIMING COVER IS OFF ... SEE PICTURES..

I throw my hat in the ring:
I'd have someone stand next to your car with hood open and watch to see if you crank it up on starting if the distibutor moves.
I'd go though the whole thing doing whatever it is that causes the timing to jump up or down and have some one watch it.
You might just be suprised.
 
Hullo,
Can I add my view.
I have been reading this and think,
Is the vacuum line disconnected at the time of initial advance being set?
If the carbie and idle speed are set incorrectly.
The vacuum at the idle setting, and on starting the timing would be retarded and require resetting to start and run correctly and once started the idle speed would be incorrect.
This would require constant restting or adjustment.
Noel.
Sorry to point out the obvious!
 
What if the rebuild shop flipped the cam sprocket to expose the unworn side? :unsure: Don't know if it would fit, but that might explain the odd wear. :LOL:

Either way, I don't see any issues with the cam timing, assuming the dowel pin can be observed in the cam sprocket keyway. I wouldn't even swap the timing set at this point. It's a nice way to spend $100, but for questionable benefit in the "here and now" we face. There's more important data to check with the balancer refitted (a little oil or grease on the contact surfaces will make it easier to extract another time), timing cover snugged and sealed, and the timing light tried again...
 
Just an idea, because I really am at a loss why...

I had the EXACT same problem, but my solution ended up being the hold-down clamp. Just out of curiosity: if you are standing at the front of your engine, like at the grille, and you look at your distributor, which way is it pointing? 1:00, 2:00, 3:00? I'm sure one of you guys will know, but I can't remember at the time: does the "lip" that the clamp holds down taper off eventually?

I guess what I'm getting at is, is there any play in the distributor rotationally? How about after you start it up, do you get more play when it is running? (Obviously there should be none...)

Good luck!
 
With so many variables, you really need to keep track of everything you do. Make a checklist and a series of diagrams at each step you take. It won't hurt to run the engine for a few seconds without a radiator or timing cover. It might make a mess, but it would be cheaper than buying more unnecessary parts. ;)

P.S.: MY APOLOGIES TO Ian, Bort62, for my previous remarks addressed to him on his attitude to reweb. I was upset by the fact that reweb was apparently hurt by your comments, and went straight to a reply without seeing that you had tempered your responses. MEA CULPA! :oops:
 
BIGREDRASA":3k0r5zq8 said:
With so many variables, you really need to keep track of everything you do. Make a checklist and a series of diagrams at each step you take. It won't hurt to run the engine for a few seconds without a radiator or timing cover. It might make a mess, but it would be cheaper than buying more unnecessary parts. ;)

P.S.: MY APOLOGIES TO Ian, Bort62, for my previous remarks addressed to him on his attitude to reweb. I was upset by the fact that reweb was apparently hurt by your comments, and went straight to a reply without seeing that you had tempered your responses. MEA CULPA! :oops:
Click to expand...

:beer:
 
reweb,
the chain is stretched. the reason it goes retarded is the cam is lagging the crank. the cam catches up and timing is back to normal.
again, have you tried to take the vacuum out of the equation? if you haven't please try it. time it disconnected and leave it disconnected.

if you have and posted it. i apologize for not seeing it.

also, I would go ahead and change the timing chain and gears
 
How much end play does that cam have?

I wouldn't spend money on a DS2 until the problem is identified.
Joe
 
Hello

I have tried reading this book of a posting. From the pictures of the timing gear and chain I don't think this is your problem. I personally have never seen a chain stretch enough to move your timing enough to not allow the motor to start.

You say your timing is set to 12Degrees. Ok when the engine refuses to start have you tried hooking up your timing light and cranking it over to see what your timing is at. It should be pretty close to 12 degrees. If not has the distributor moved? Is the advance plate stuck? Is it possible that the distributor drive gear is slipping on the shaft" broken Drive Pin"

If it is at 12Degrees
Have you done a compression test?
Has anything changed with your carburetor or carb settings?
When running does the motor run well or is it down on power?
 
Yep I agree.....

No way that your timing chain is the culprit. Mine had 3/4" play in it and it still ran fine. Upgrade to a Classic Inlines double roller timing chain & gears button the engine back up and move on. :)

A timing chain is either going to work or not work. If it doesnt work its going to jump time (jump a tooth) backfire and stall and no matter how you adjust the timing it will not restart.

They dont stretch out to the point that you are describing.

Have you shined a flashlite into the engine with the distro removed and looked at your cam gear? Is it destroyed or wore out?

Dab a line of paint from the distro base onto the engine block so that you can verify that the distro is not moving and youre distro hold down is the right one and is holding the distro in the fashion it was designed to do.

What coil are you running? Original one? Maybe its junk and is heating up after a few minutes and starts to misfire. You shut it off and while youre messing with the timing and it cools back off.

Not sure what distro youre running but if its a 66 and older you only have vacuum advance there is no mechanical advance in the early distros.

Later,

Doug
 
Reweb

Reweb wrote
"Well I don't think I could do that even when it was together. I tried to read the timing just by cranking the car (when it would not start) and using the light but I couldn't get it to work. I just had to move the distributor around little by little until it would finally start. Seems like sometimes it needs to be advanced sometimes the other way. "

Does this mean that you were not getting any spark untill you moved the distributor?

If so then I would pop the cap when this happens and turn the motor to see what is happening in the dist. There are a limitted number of things that can keep you from getting spark.

Dist. shaft not turning

Points not opening

Point shorted

Loose wire

The list can go on but the point is that when the engine dies and you don't get spark to check the timing, you turn the dist to reestablish timing thereby changing the timing, something like a self fullfilling Prophecy.

Find out why the spark is missing and I suspect you'll have the cause.

I hope this makes some sense to you and helps.

Good luck
69.5mav
 
You said in one of your earlier post that you couldn’t get your timing light to work when you were just cranking the engine when it wouldn’t start. As some one said your light should flash anytime the engine is turning over. Base upon that I can’t help but wonder if the reason your timing light didn’t work is that you had no spark and that’s the reason the car dies or won’t start after you shut it off. Under this scenario I don’t have an answer as to why you can sometimes start it again by moving the distributor. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps it has nothing to do with the distributor being moved but has something to do with the elapsed of time between your engine shutting off and you moving it. For example, the resistance in a corroded electrical connection can be affected by what current flows through it. If the resistance rises to the point where it shuts off the flow of current all together, to the coil for example, then the car will die. After a few minutes the corroded connection cools down and the resistance lowers, allowing current flow, and the car start again.

Just a shot in the dark!
 
cctgene

Seems like we both had the same idea at the same time. IE that the problem is not one of changeing timing so much as it is one of loss of ignition. If reweb looks into that I think he will find his problem.

69.5mav
 
Let's just look at the evidence. A stretched/loose timing chain won't make the marks on both sides of the gear teeth like we saw. Only extreme tightness will. No coil, DS II, or muffler bearings will cause that. As Sir William of Okham said, the simplest reason is usually the correct answer. Not common or frequent, but simplest. The marks on the teeth are from excess tension, and that is one consequence of the two sprockets' distance changing. Just use the starter to turn the engine over and watch to see what happens to the chain and gears.
 
I'm starting to like Doug's aka Mustang-Geezer's theory. If something is boogered up on the distributor drive gear on the cam, that would explain the problem recurring with two different distributors. If a tooth is gone, that would explain the need to re-set the timing constantly. Probably because it has never happened to me, I have never felt jumping timing chains are that common.
Doug
 
You know....that coil problem thing has merit! Though I've never heard of a coil losing spark that quick, it is possible. I had a 62 T Bird with a bad coil. Took it about five miles to get hot enough to fail. After cooling it would start like nothing was wrong. Usually took all night to get cool.

Try a new coil. If nothing else it will eliminate that as a possible cause, at best the car will be fixed!

Harry
 
Reweb Wrote

"I have changed all of the following in the last couple months…

Changed to a different carb,
removed pertronix 1 and went back to points,
new spark plugs,
new coil,
new rotor + cap,
new plug wires,
new fuel pump,
new fuel filters,
wiggled all wires while running,
checked firing order,
checked and re-checked point gap,
Checked plug wire + coil wire spark,
changed to rebuilt distributor +
stared at engine and prayed!"

I think he has covered the bases with cheap changeble parts.

Bigredrasa Wrote

"The marks on the teeth are from excess tension, and that is one consequence of the two sprockets' distance changing."

How will this cause him to loose ignition (spark)? It can cause the spark to change timing but should not cause it to go away unless something realy extrwme is happening.

66 Fastback Wrote

"If something is boogered up on the distributor drive gear on the cam, that would explain the problem recurring with two different distributors.

If a tooth is gone, that would explain the need to re-set the timing constantly."


I agree that that is a potential cause but I don't think those helical cut gear could jump with just one tooth gone. Anyway it does bear some looking into.

69.5mav
 
What if the cam wasn't broken in properly, or lubed up right?
Could that wipe a lobe, causing these symptoms?
Those gears look odd, even thought the chain looks OK.
When I swapped my chain out we put a ton of grease on everything.

On closer inspection, the chain also has a severe wear pattern on the inside.
Something might be binding.
 
BIGREDRASA":m5nv10h3 said:
A stretched/loose timing chain won't make the marks on both sides of the gear teeth like we saw. Only extreme tightness will.
Click to expand...

I would challenge that assertation. I also maintain that no amount of relative movement between the timing gears that doesn't result in complete failure will affect the ignition timing significantly. If your ignition timing is changing, and the timing gears are still mechanically connected... then it's a problem with the distributor/distributor drive.

The suggestion of a damaged distributor drive gear is attractive, but I also entertain the idea of a faulty SCV valve. I do not recall if he ever tried static timing w/o vacuum advance.

If the SCV valve were improperly switching between manifold and ported vacuum, it could explain a sudden shift of as much as 20* or more.
 
Oh my

We haven't heard from Reweb since sunday night. I hope he hasn't done something silly like Auto/cide. Please say it aint so.

69.5mav
 
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