turbo 200 build

[bubba22349]

very nice workmanship :wow:

 

[drag-200stang]

On the early blocks there is a bolt boss 9'' back from the bell , at the pan rail on both sides , later blocks the passenger side was deleted..They are there for bracing some auto trans..One on each side , a brace went from there to the bottom of the bell. Can not see if you went 360 on your block plate that would help the triangle of strength.

 

[clintonvillian]

You are making me sooooooo happy!

Finally someone that is going to have some experience with the HP!

Looking good! Can't wait to get back on mine.......the shop is getting closer, hopefully by this summer I'll be back in car building mode.

 

[67Straightsix]

On the early blocks there is a bolt boss 9'' back from the bell , at the pan rail on both sides , later blocks the passenger side was deleted..They are there for bracing some auto trans..One on each side , a brace went from there to the bottom of the bell. Can not see if you went 360 on your block plate that would help the triangle of strength.

I went with a 1/4" plate cut to match the block (180). I do have bolt holes on both sides, but have not made brackets.
As an aside- for anyone who wants to do a 302 bell housing swap using a high torque starter, you'll need to trim the block a bit (see pic)
[image]https://imageshack.com/i/pmFwcxxQj[/image]

I've got the engine on the test stand - which I made from a diesel pump trailer. Need to finish wiring, connecting the fuel system and a hundred other small details before the test start - getting close though. I'm going to run it without the turbo until I get the base program right, then run it with turbo before it goes into the car.
[image]https://imageshack.com/i/poyhEu1Mj[/image]

 

[pmuller9]

I'm excited. This is better than waiting for some highly rated feature film to premier at a theater.

 

[drag-200stang]

I all ways thought that bolt hole by your stater looked sketchy..So I added one toward the drivers side where the block ear is nice and thick..But I tend to over do things.
Keep up the good work.

 

[bubba22349]

really coming along! Be sure to post some videos of it running both with and without the Turbo for a comparison.

 

[67Straightsix]

I all ways thought that bolt hole by your stater looked sketchy..So I added one toward the drivers side where the block ear is nice and thick..But I tend to over do things.
Keep up the good work.

When I had the starter on the mock up block I though I had the interference problem solved. The casting on this block is a little different. Drilling a new hole is probably the smart thing to do. Thought adapting a 302 bell housing was going to be one of the easier mods I made, that thing has been a pain.

bubba, My wife has informed me she will be there documenting the start up. (she's the official photographer)

 

[67Straightsix]

I wasn't planning on posting until the engine was actually running, but I ran into a snafu. I've come to the conclusion that this is probably the most odd-ball engine that the Holley system has ever been used on. I found a local Holley tech guy to help me set up the parameters so I thought this would go somewhat smoothly - and it did, up until we started checking injector firing sequence - there was no signal to the injectors. We traced it to the cam sensor which has no signal. Spent all day trouble-shooting (checked wiring and replaced the sensor) and still no signal. I'm using 2002 mustang 3.8 two pin sensor which doesn't seem to be compatible with the Holley. I think I should have probably went with a three pin. Information on the Ford cam sensor is scarce. I'm suspecting that the voltage requirements for the Ford and Holley are different - does anyone know what voltage the Ford operates on? Other than that, things are coming along - slowly...

 

[pmuller9]

The 2 wire cam position sensor is a magnetic reluctor sensor and puts out a pulse as the reluctor swings past the coil.
Polarity is important. The ECU is looking for a zero crossing as the pulse goes from positive to negative.

 

[RichCreations]

I wasn't planning on posting until the engine was actually running, but I ran into a snafu. I've come to the conclusion that this is probably the most odd-ball engine that the Holley system has ever been used on. I found a local Holley tech guy to help me set up the parameters so I thought this would go somewhat smoothly - and it did, up until we started checking injector firing sequence - there was no signal to the injectors. We traced it to the cam sensor which has no signal. Spent all day trouble-shooting (checked wiring and replaced the sensor) and still no signal. I'm using 2002 mustang 3.8 two pin sensor which doesn't seem to be compatible with the Holley. I think I should have probably went with a three pin. Information on the Ford cam sensor is scarce. I'm suspecting that the voltage requirements for the Ford and Holley are different - does anyone know what voltage the Ford operates on? Other than that, things are coming along - slowly...

a 2 wire sensor is likely a VR sensor, vs a 3 wire hall sensor... VR sensors put out a very low voltage at low RPMs and a higher voltage as RPMs increase... You might try a VR conditioner between the sensor and the ECU like the JBPerf one...

 

[67Straightsix]

The 2 wire cam position sensor is a magnetic reluctor sensor and puts out a pulse as the reluctor swings past the coil.
Polarity is important. The ECU is looking for a zero crossing as the pulse goes from positive to negative.

From what I've been reading ,it did not sound like polarity was important. The magnet would get a pulse either way. I did however switch the wires on the cam sensor, no difference. Looking at the data log the crank sensor shows pulses, but the cams graph is a straight line. The ecu and cam sync are not communicating with each other. It seems like it should show something , which is a little worrying. If this can't be sorted out this week I'll switch to a 95 explorer hall effects sensor. From what I read on the Holley forms it looks like that has fewer problems. Thanks for the input.

 

[xctasy]

Most likely inductance. Check Mikes1157


There are attachments which I only put on FEP because it was impossible to link them here in the past...

"http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?155706-The-path-less-traveled-1978-Turbo-I6-Futura-(The-Gila-Monster)/page20"

Aussies have no problems if its a stock 1993 onwards system, even though the sensor itself is very hard to set up properly. Ford OZ actually totally backed out for two whole years from EECV and EDIS6 because dust, heat, coil pack failure and the inability to tune it so LPG instillations taht didn't go through spark plugs like a Russian Pogom. Its a beeatch if the primary battery voltages drop below 12.9 volts, and if your doing somethng just a little different. Like a big cam, propane or turbo.

But a clever Aussie just cut and shuts the Over Head Cam AU 4 liter system into any old overhead valve X-flow, and it works. But the VR relector has to be set up right. It may work even if you put the sensor the wrong way around, but to set it up proprly is actually quite hard. I remember Ralph Sarich, the Aussie Orbital Engine and fine atomisation EFI injector inventor, made an even cylinder swash plate engine run, even though it was technically impoosiable to do so. He said " If someone had told me that it wouldn't work unless I had an oldd number of cylinders, I probabyl wouldn't have gotten it to go at all...."

Pages 4, 5 and 6. This boy 81foxdwagon is no yella belly backyarder, but he and Wagon on FSP forum's are the only two Aussies who have army proof of any EDI6 converted ohv X-flow ever running. All because the prox sensor is such a nasty thing to set properly.KLR250's advice is bang on.81foxdwagon's respose was to just bang the Aussie Bosch 62 series Duraspark back on, and forget the EDIS6.....


There's more guys with Nissan/Holden in line six RB20, 25, 26 and 30's with Ford EDIS6 than X-flows, and that's a fact.
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5473-the-yellow-turbo-wagon/page-4
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5473-the-yellow-turbo-wagon/page-5
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5473-the-yellow-turbo-wagon/page-6




81foxdwagon had it on the wrong way, with the 1993 EF Falcon part number facing outwards, whereas in stock form, there is a locating sleeve on one of the tabs. He didnt reverse polarity or anything. Its this aspect that is so hard.

From personal experience, Proximity Sensors are just a total Cluster *&%^$. I'm no longer scared of them, but they aren't an easy thing to master. See KLR250's Kiwi forum posts.The composition of the reluctor wheel is critical, and the conditioning circuit is too.


I spent a few hours working through Fords VR speedosesnor, its the same, its not a pure digital system, its a hybrid, so when you hook it into something like my Rallye Route Postion Survey master (which is digiital) it won't increment properly.

http://oldschool.co.nz/2011/forum/index.php?/topic/30571-klr250-the-build/


"This also includes a VR conditioning circuit to condition the signal from the ford EDIS VR sensor. The sensor has to sit around 1mm from the teeth, and the air gap is critical. The circuit conditions the signal and converts it from a sinewave to a 5V square wave so megasquirt can process it, heres the circuit diagram as shown in the MSnSextra manual"


Variable Reluctors created an AC current. Digitial sensors are like tone rings on ABS, and make a square wave form. Some of the data logging aspects get messed up with neagative voltages. I've lost 8 weeks of pay dealing with proxity sensors from 2002 till last month. 13 years of utter crap.

Data loggers and ECM's don't deal well with square wave forms that have negative voltages at the bottom. Fords system is the exception, its a bit of both.

The Sensors that work are SMP (Standard Motor Products) PC51 and PC74. There needs to be shielded wire to cut electrical interference from messing up the signal, so what they call inductance doesn't screw your Varaiable Relector signal over....


But you'll get it sorted.

I use Moates J3 ports to do my turbo engines. I don't saw of the log or anything like what you do, and becasue of the injetor issues and packaging, I don't use traditional port EFI the way you do. I use speed density, and the Aussie 4.1 sensor.

.
From http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12137
One of the 158 + posts here "http://eectuning.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=2" might cover it...



Since I've destroyed more prox sensors than you've had hot dinners....contact me and I'll see if a trusted source can give me permission to send you some details.

The four Files are
PC-ED 1 (4.7 MB) <---- probably the one you need.
PC-ED 3 ( 109.7kb)
PC-ED 4 ( 417.2kb)
PC-ED 6 ( 594.8 kb)



Find a secure email and I'll send it if I can get permission.

I'm not sure it will help because"It means making a lot of new and old tech work harmoniously...a lot of very "different" sensors give similar signals, and a lot of "similar" sensors give very different signals"

The 2 wire cam position sensor is a magnetic reluctor sensor and puts out a pulse as the reluctor swings past the coil.
Polarity is important. The ECU is looking for a zero crossing as the pulse goes from positive to negative.

From what I've been reading ,it did not sound like polarity was important. The magnet would get a pulse either way. I did however switch the wires on the cam sensor, no difference. Looking at the data log the crank sensor shows pulses, but the cams graph is a straight line. The ecu and cam sync are not communicating with each other. It seems like it should show something , which is a little worrying. If this can't be sorted out this week I'll switch to a 95 explorer hall effects sensor. From what I read on the Holley forms it looks like that has fewer problems. Thanks for the input.

My technical assitant is a 45 year veteren of factory prox sensors. He's gotten me out of the stuck so many times...Often, the sensor has a need to be loaded by a pullup resister to generate a square wave or variable relctance. Fords sensors are designed from very smart suppliers pricing the needs of Fords techncians, and they are not all the same, and vary so much by year. Explorer 96 to 97, total change. As long as it works, and they can get Job No 1 to the public, it doesn't matter what part they use as long as it meets the requirements for the model run and can be traced back to the supply for the EVTS manual; even a mid year spec change requiring a whole new batch code of EEC doesn't worry Ford as long as the lines of code from the CPU/ECM can recognise it.


Ben had a Ford Zetk powered Volvo Amazon 122S, and is a ship technician, so he's pretty clued up.

So you'll have to check Greywolfs EECV post in Four Eyed Pride. He's been a FSP member for a long time.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/member.php?6939-Greywolf

FEP Senior Member Greywolf from Richmond, ME. He's out to sea servicing our (ooppps, your) coastlines at the moment, but he set me up with some EECV stuff, but its too huge to post

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... -MPG-meter

It's available. I do electrical and electronics (shipboard for a living, Ford for a hobby, household for sanity) so we should probably find a time to have a more detailed discussion.

My focus, like yours, has been EEC-V control of non-EEC-V engines, although (to make the Focus part a pun) I gave up a little and moved over to tweaking of pre-existing EEC-V (for example, the Focus-in-a-Volvo-Amazon project). It means making a lot of new and old tech work harmoniously...a lot of very "different" sensors give similar signals, and a lot of "similar" sensors give very different signals.

I have a lot of literature and test equipment that gets used for tweaking--we should definitely chat. The items you seek may be in a bin somewhere in the piles of boxes stuffed in the "future master bedroom".

 

[pmuller9]

From what I've been reading ,it did not sound like polarity was important. The magnet would get a pulse either way. I did however switch the wires on the cam sensor, no difference. Looking at the data log the crank sensor shows pulses, but the cams graph is a straight line. The ecu and cam sync are not communicating with each other. It seems like it should show something , which is a little worrying. If this can't be sorted out this week I'll switch to a 95 explorer hall effects sensor. From what I read on the Holley forms it looks like that has fewer problems. Thanks for the input.

Have you checked the cam sensor coil resistance with an Ohm Meter?
I believe it should read several hundred ohms.
I would also check continuity from the cam sensor plug all the back to pins A22 and A14 on the main harness that plugs into the ECU.

 

[xctasy]

I'm very impressed at your work. Two notes.


1. The SMP P51 sensor can be replaced with another, but generates a wave with speed. Its drops off at low speed. Typical Ford stuff. Engine has to be spinning above curcb idel to make it start to generte a reliable pulse.

62-2 wheel, yes? Its not stainless steel, is it?

Where is the sensor?


Inductance where there is crossover with another voltage, will take the signal out.


On my engines, I use an industrial eletric motor to get them at base curb idle speed, not anything else. Cranking range for a Ford engine is around 200-250 rpm The engine needs to turn faster than 70rpm to catch and start. 850 rpm is a better speed to test pulses.




2. On your 1/4" plate adaptor.

You can clock the starter and trans 6 degrees onwards and have the transmission on a pitch to clear the bellhousing lower buttress flange.

Did that on my AOD to Aussie X-flow Falcon six, much to xflowecono's absolute horror. Yes if all is level, the flange hits the starter, but you can clock the trans around a bit to clear it, or grind it. ON AOD to 429 and FE 427 swaps, sometimes 12.5 degrees pitch is generated. 6 degrees is nothing.

Normal camber of a road is 3%, a little side list on a T5 or AOD isn't going to hurt anything as the gearlever comes through where it should, and your cross member fits. Camaros have had offset 10 degree T5 for years. A little General Motors Genetic Enginnering is fine if it avoids a problem.

Nine times out of ten, you have to scratch build your crossmember anyway.

Its a little like redrilling the blank FE rocker arm to get the grub screw in the right spot for an I6. If you find yourself pushing material frienships, then clock something, or change it. Or mill it on an angle. Don't think at 90 degrees all the time. You can't screw up by deciding to avoid a problem.

If Ford Argentina decided to add a little 5 degree lean in one direction to clear the spring towers of its triple carb six, and Ford Australia leaned it the other direction 5 degrees to clear the Dana 44 diff and trandfer case on the 4x4 Falcon Utility, its quite okay to twist a trans the same amount. Even up to F car levels of tilt.

 

[67Straightsix]

Have you checked the cam sensor coil resistance with an Ohm Meter?
I believe it should read several hundred ohms.
I would also check continuity from the cam sensor plug all the back to pins A22 and A14 on the main harness that plugs into the ECU.

I've tried two sensors - the ohms read 0.741. Checked continuity on the pins several times - always have continuity. My wires are shielded and routed separate from everything else. I'm starting to believe the sensor is not generating enough voltage for the ECU to read.

ectasy, your well of information never ceases to amaze! I'm starting to get a good grasp on how the sensors work - and how to trouble-shoot. To answer your questions: I should clarify what I've done for the cam position sensor - I modified a mustang 3.8 cam sensor/oil pump drive to work on the I6 (it's mounted in the stock distributor location). For the crank sensor, Holley recommends a 60-2 crank trigger wheel - no it is not stainless (always cover the obvious) Tomorrow the guy that's helping me is going to talk with Holley directly to see if they can help trouble-shoot this problem. I still think I'm going to end up going to a hall effects sensor - shouldn't be to difficult, just have to change the pick-up and the sensor.

 

[xctasy]

At a personal level, I dislike VR.

Reason 1. Ford does it all the time with everything...

What a very strange, but very cool system.. It's just the 8000 plips per mile, early EECIV compatibale 8 pulse per revolution VRS system, with a variable voltage sqaure wave form from 20 mph onwards. It does have some funny features on sub 20 mph voltage polling, technically able to poll back down to 7 mph in some circumstances.

Certain versions of the EEC III, EEC IV and most EEC V's require an 8000 pulse per mile vehicle speed sensor signal from the PSOM (speedo module), which is just like all other EEC-IV equipped vehicles

Other later EEC V applications use a 16000 or 40000 pulse per mile VSS signal.



I'm told that some of the CFI or Speed Density AOD Fox varaints poll down to 7 mph, and allow idle speed conditioning.



Sadly, the periodic zero mph to 19.9 mph null readings won't do what I need it to do, as like some ABS circuits, it has no reliable squarewave below 20 mph to log distance travelled. Its circumstantial, and as such, presents as aa Major Bummmer to me.....

I could probably use a prescaler to create a digital square wave form from an SN95 hub, but I can get another Proximity sensor tommorrow in the post for 95 US.


I jacked up my car, and ran the standard Hertz, A/C Voltage and Ohms resistance checks from zero to 62 mph, with my metric speedo registering in KM/H. Note that there is no voltage going up to 32 km/h or 20 mph, but once invoked, the voltage can be recorded right donw to zero, so there is an interesting voltage speed, Hertz resolution

0 km/h, 0 mph 0 Hz, zero volts AC
12 km/h, 7.4 mph, but 0.016 volts AC on over run
See picture

20 km/h, 12.4 mph 0 Hz, zero volts AC
30 km/h, 18.6 mph 0 Hz, zero volts AC, but 0.033 volts AC on overun
See picture

32 km/h, 19.9 mph 0 Hz, 0.00 volts AC
32.2 km/h, 20.0 mph, 0 Hz, 0.019 volts AC
40 km/h, 24.9 mph 0.056 volts AC
50 km/h, 31.1 mph, 0.083 volts AC
60 km/h, 37.3 mph 102 Hz, 0.109 volts AC
70 km/h, 43.5 mph, 0.149 volts AC
80 km/h, 49.7 mph 0.186 volts AC
88 km/h, 54.7 mph 125 Hz, 0.223 volts AC
See picture

100 km/h 62.1 mph, 0.273 volts AC
See picture



The square wave form kicks in after 19.9 mph on the upward rise, with zero Hertz cycles per second on my Cat IV multimetervoltage and the voltage increasing steadily from 20 mph on upwards.

The on the decilne after 20 mph, it records right down to 7 mph, assumably for the one Speed Density AOD car that needed idle speed control...

2. Nissan and Toyota use it. My old Road Roughness Holden wouldn't control cruise below 40 km/h, as it used on too. I don't like having to drive at 40 km/h like I do in my Nissan to use the attesa VSS to generate a distance recording. So they are VR. So are ABS cut outs. Add a prescaler to boost them, and they still fall short. Ford, GM and Nissan and Toyota use them because its fit for purpose. I like to missuse a sensor and mine it for data, so I'm a gready SOB who will never be happy with the modern way of doing sensor tech.Greedy of Gain, Guilty As Charged...

MSD or Holleys choice of HE is good.


I like optical pickup to, but it gives other problems. I've used it in a commercial Road Roughness measurement environment, and you can bet its fun, accurate, and safe, The VR and HE. Just depends. So feed the machine what it wants, dude, and enjoy making it truly Howitzer Proof like any built down to a price Ford should be.

 

[pmuller9]

If going to a Hall Effect is the solution that will be good to know.
Thanks

 

[67Straightsix]

Have not been able to work on the engine for over a week, but I did get the right cam sync parts. Went to the pick and pull, and found a '97 mustang 3.8 - got the three wire connector, and sensor. Yesterday installed the parts, checked ignition, and injector timing - turned the key... (long pause for dramatic effect)... engine roared to life!!! The header design gives the engine a deep growl - which of course the muffler and turbo will change, but it was cool to hear! So happy/relieved it actually worked! - Once you get the right components for the Holley EFI, it's incredibly easy to use. I'm using a turbo 302 fuel map so I still have a lot of fine tuning to do. Now for the bad news - the oil pressure is low, so have to trouble shoot that - I'm thinking it could be a spacer I put in between the block and oil pump, guess I'll start there.

 

[drag-200stang]

What did you have to do to get the 3.8 to fit? I believe they say to set the program to hall effect and falling edge is best? Also what cam shaft are you using?
One thing I would like to caution you on is bad spark timing under boost will destroy things, you will make good power and think everything is fine...Just make sure that noise is not false triggering spark and that it is what you are commanding it to be before boosting it.