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turbo 200 build

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pmuller9
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #101 by pmuller9 » Sun May 13, 2018 3:22 pm

I understand about the no further need for speculation but you should go to the dyno with certain expectations.
Here is the compressor map for your turbo. It is more aggressive than the GT2860R turbo that was originally discussed
Image

The red load line represents 15 lbs of boost from 3000 to 5500 rpm. 380 HP @ 5500
The orange line represents 10 lbs of boost from 3000 to 5500 rpm. 330 HP @ 5500

This is assuming a very high VE at 5500 rpm due to the long duration cam you presently have along with an air to air intercooler with at least a 50% effiency.

What is important and expected from looking at the load line is that full target boost can be aquired by 3000 engine rpm. (Or close to it)
If you have to wait past 3000 rpm to get full boost then the cam profile is a mismatch.
You are looking for the widest power band possible and should use as much of the dynamic range of the turbocharger as possible

Also note that running the engine rpm much past 6000 will drive the turbo close to the choke zone.

We all will be anxiously waiting for dyno results.
You are doing an Outstanding Job!

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #102 by xctasy » Mon May 14, 2018 6:50 am

I'm on the same page and with you all. On big turbos, the critical surge zone is where the cam and the engines exhaust fails to give enough excitation to the turbo off idle to 2500rpm, and the turbo 200 becomes a dangerous combination if the cam is too large as well. Sixes don't do that like OHC Fours do, so you'll have to try real hard to mess up the lower part of the abdiactic curve with what pmuller9 has in the graph above. But at wideh open throttle, it might be a risk. I'm pretty sure you'll have more than 155 cfm at 520 lift.



The turbo size waranings I've gotten are from David Vizard's SOHC Pinto engine book.



Going back to a known good idling 250 turbo EFI engine build.

With 44 to 48 pound per hour injectors, an intake of 552thou lift and 221degrees at 50 thou, Exhaust 578 thou and 231 degrees at 50 thou on a 112 lobe center line. About 220 cfm at the ports, and 250 cubes with a 4 stage auto and you use a big butt turbo.

Borg Warner SX 300 60 mm twin scroll turbocharger, with T4 0.88 A/R ratio.


it makes insane boost from less than 3000 rpm


Image


This all goes back to what works being a lot more radical than you'd expect.


Knocking off 50 cubes, reducing the over scavaging but adding some intake lift, putting in a manual, and going back to a Stone Age Iron head means you can use some extra duration.

I see nothing to worry about here. The 1.68 and 2.02:1 boost ratios (what 10 and 15 psi are without the heat factor)....they are kind of right at the low end even with a tame 60mm T4 0.88 A/R ratio.

I keep comming back to how big a 3.3 liter engine with short rods and some serious fuel and ignition ramps can be. Its goes back to the ancient 1972-1973 9 port Holden Torana engine getting a shot in the arm development in 1985...., becoming a 12 port EFi engine, making 142 hp and 198 lb-ft. Which is what 190 hp Gross and something like 200 lb-ft gross is in SAE net with the very basic 260 degee, 185 degree at 50 thou early cam. The EFI Commodore used ALMOST the same cam as the base model XU1 Torana

Image

This is a 1972 triple carb 3.3 liter engine with a small 260 degree cam. The additional power of the 312 degree cam was unreported, but it was 216 hp net on an open iron header race car, and the best seen with Strombergs or SU's and the stock kind of iron twin outlet header was 238 hp net. With beeter carbs, 250 to 300 hp easy.


So the right cam and induction system makes the 200 or 202 six an excpetional device. A cam with 240 thou duration at 50 thou over a 185 to 195 degree cam is worth, literally, 40 hp, with no major loss of torque down low. The torque curve is just fattened out and moved upwards. Its worth a huge amouht of boost in a turbo car.

That base could make It REALLY produce the goods on a little 3.3 liter six that normally is restricted to about 300 hp at 7000 rpm without an aluminum cylinder head. With the best cylinder head around (zjello's remastered knock off of the Phil Irving 12 port Heron head), they go up to 370 hp at 7000rpm.


With 30 pounds of boost, a moderate XU1 312 degree cam 215 hp solid lifter 3.3 with this kind of EFi intake then makes 403 rwhp and 600 hp at the flywheel on 30 pounds of boost and 20 degrees of total spark lead. The cast alloy solid skirt Mahale XU1 pistons that Repco and ACL made for the 1972-1973 Bathurst race cars can survive regular 7500 rpm use, and as long as the fuel delivery and spark advance is kept in check, a 30 pound boost engine with forged rods and those pistons can carry well over 6000 rpm thrashes. Like, 7500 rpm.


The best example was the January 2003 Australian Street Machine preview of the Western Australian Mick Munro's OVA BOOST. Just a two stage factory Powerglide auto with a high stall converter.


It was put together while he was still working for FORMAZ. On the strength of this 9.92@135 mph Power Glide and 28 x 11.5 wheeled 2400 pounder, Mick started OVA BOOST Engineering. Sadly, it became 2JZ after he eventually threw a rod in this Holden 202 in line six, but it took about 5 years of thrashing to do it.


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Last edited by xctasy on Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #103 by pmuller9 » Mon May 14, 2018 7:18 pm

xctasy wrote:So the right cam and induction system makes the 200 or 202 six an excpetional device. A cam with 240 thou duration at 50 thou over a 185 to 195 degree cam is worth, literally, 40 hp, with no major loss of torque down low. The torque curve is just fattened out and moved upwards. Its worth a huge amouht of boost in a turbo car.

We see this phenonema on the big six and is mainly due to the port flow and volume being so small with respect to the 50 cu inch cylinder volume.

The last 300 I assembled had a big valve ported head that flowed 212 cfm at .600 lift and a cam with an .050" duration of 232*, adv 288*.
It still idled at 650 rpm and pulled 17 inches of vacuum at 750 rpm which is a good indicator of the low end response.
It made more torque just above 2000 rpm than the .050" 192* stock cam stock engine.

However this is not the case here.
As you pointed out, the modified head probably flows in the 175 cfm range and no longer has a small port flow with respect to the 34 cu inch cylinder volume.
This is indicated by the rough idle and low rpm responce of the engine.

Anyway I will wait to see what the actual results are and will not speculate any further.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #104 by 67Straightsix » Tue May 15, 2018 12:19 am

I've enjoyed reading and rereading all the posts after the cam info was posted. It's obvious that you guys are much more knowledgeable about all this than I am, so I'm digesting all the information and will try to make the best decisions I can. I've learned a lot from all your posts and appreciate all the enthusiasm.
Some posts really made me question my cam choice with the turbo I have. However, after reading all the posts and going over the turbo maps, I'm really curious on where the torque and hp curves are going to be - I have several ideas if I need to change something - there's a lot of tuning that still needs to be done. But the car IS running and for the time being I'm very happy :D

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #105 by xctasy » Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 pm

As Sam Blumstein from Chevy Offroad and Marine said "There are no wrong cams...only wrong engine combinations."


The key part is making sure your air speed is high, your port and runner area and volumes are the minium to get the job done. What pmuller9 says about idle vacuum and low end torque growth with no loss is spot on. :thumbup:



Specific to the 300.

pmuller9 wrote:We see this phenonema on the big six and is mainly due to the port flow and volume being so small with respect to the 50 cu inch cylinder volume.


Its actually the same with the 200 and 250 if port and intake ruuner volume are taken down a notch...even with a big cam. OVA BOOST uses the stock 2 liter intake runner 1985 Commodore Electronic Injection intake, and it uses what US guys would call a pretty exteme cam....the stock XU1 Bathurst cam, 312 degrees, with a big ball bearing turbo. That should be enough to convince you to look at a lower intake runner volume.


OVA BOOST was one example. I'll give you another great example.

The stock Ford 250 X flow intake runner to the head is 2.3 liters, not including the heads intake port CC's.


Most aftermarket ones are 50 to 155% of the engine volume, 6 to 6.2 liters in a common size. Like mike1157''s old intake runner.

They create huge off boost lag compared to the stock 2.3 liter intaske runner, but even so....On a drag car with a high stall Powerglide or 4 or six stage auto, they tear up the tarmac. Offbost, they are Lame-er, but excatly Lame.


With a big total runner volume, After cooming on boost, they then make simply epic horsepower.


Even with a 6 liter intake volume, the old Glia Monster still had sublime off turbo response because the cam was so small for its cylinder capacity, and the cylinder heads ports were small, with very high gas speeds.



Que your intake.....

Image

I guess it is a sectioned down 3 by 5 RHS section, 24 long. By my estimates, it is less than 5715 cc's. It looks like 20% has been cut off. So its gotta be 4572 cc's or so perhaps.

with six 1-3/8 by 2-1/2" runners 4" deap = 1386 cc's

Total has to be about 6 liters (6000 cc's or 366 cubic inches or less). That's 188% of the engine volume if its a 3.3 liter engine.

The key thing is the short side radius has been tidied up, and the effective runner volume is really only 1386 cc's. The 3 by 5 log at the top is really just a stagnant flow supplier to six very short ruuners which feed pockets in the head that are less than 110 ccs at the runner.



If it cammy, you can fill in the top runner with an alloy plate to reduce the total volume back. You only need 2690 cc's at the top, for a total runner volume of 2690 cc plus 1386, or about 4076, or 123% of your engine size.You can go down to about 3315 cc's if you make an effective throat size of 63.5 mm in the top of the T that feeds the six leg ins. Thats 100% of the engine capacity as it stands.

You open up the top of the 3 by 5, and put in an alloy or Poly Ethelyne spacer to approimate the internal throad of the throttle body you are using.

As you get down to 2.3 liters, the off boost performance improves a whole heap. Due to the stroke differences between a 250 and 200, there is only a 9% difference in peak power rpm, and the off boost idle and transition to boost is fixed up.


Just cut a 3 by 5 by 24 slot in the top of the runner, and replace it with a nice piee of alloy plate allen bolted or cap screwed in, (and maybee put "Power by Ford 200 " on it!).

Start with a plate that necks down the top one US gallon, 3785 cc's. That will fix any off boost camminess your worried about.


The other bits of kit are then putting tied in tongues to the lower port floor going into the six 1.65" effective diameter ports. The runners can be necked down about 12 cc for the depth of each approx 4 inch runner, taking 72 cc's off the total 1386 cc the six runners might be sized at right now. Low speed flow will go up, and air speed will go up, and camminess reduced. The bottom 1/8" of each port needs to be filled in like a 4V Boss 302 head or a 4V 351 head "back in the day". That can be done by alloy spacers or fillers that ey can be bolted in by cap screw. Then you can fiddle with the cam retard or advance, lifter clearances, and dial the engine combination to suit the cam.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #106 by pmuller9 » Tue May 15, 2018 9:37 pm

67Straightsix

What rocker arm ratio are you using?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #107 by 67Straightsix » Wed May 16, 2018 12:32 am

pmuller The rocker arms are adjustable 1.6 ratio.

x you are close on the plenum dimensions. 3.5 x 3 3.5x4.5 22 long

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #108 by xctasy » Wed May 16, 2018 3:11 pm

67Straightsix wrote:pmuller The rocker arms are adjustable 1.6 ratio.

x you are close on the plenum dimensions. 3.5 x 3 3.5x4.5 22 long




Oh yeah, transition from top 3 x 3.5 to bottom 3.5 by 4.5.

I guess about 500 cc's off those totals might be bang on.


I'm sorry if the comparisons seam pure speculation.

But it goes like this.


The X-flows run 1.73, or 1.7-1.75 if you use the aftermarket rockers.

So the little 200 can take and needs more intensive cam that needs to make up for the lack of lift.

The so called 202 Holden has 1.5:1 lifters, and a lot less lift, as well as having a smaller 845 thou GM lifter.

The Ford 144-250 lifter is the SBF lifter diameter, and like all of them compared to Chevy lifters, it can make take and make a lot more intense lift, but its still less than what I've used. Most cams are sadly ground off Chevy profile masters, and don't allways take advantage of the lifter diameter.


A real factor in reducing "camminess" is the lousy 1.5:1 rod length to stroke ratio. 4.715 over 3.126. It hurts the peak power rpm level. Fords Aussie in line six development engineer found in 1969 that as you cam up the engine, the rev range didn't increase the way a normal 1.7 to 2:1 rod ratio engine did. This is not particular to the Ford six; all engines that have reduced rod ratios do the same thing. You would pour more duration and lift, but even with big ports, the power peak wouln't go up much past 4800 rpm. But it can rev to 7500 rpm.

The idealised engine analyser calculations correct for it when the cam durations and lifts are put in, I've had a 15 year long quest for understanding how engines like this have to be tuned. The asnwer is more cam lift on intake and changing the overscavenging of the exhaust profile to suit the engine cobination. Clay Smit has done that with your cam, and the other cam SynchromeshWines got recommned to him by Jerry does it too.

I'm pretty sure all cam suppliers do a limitmus test.... does this client really need a bigger cam. If he is a normal conservative Ford sixer, probaly not. But if its a real hard core performance guy with a light car and some real modifications, then, YES YES YES.



On the the over square nature of the engine...it doesn't really do a thing to stop the 200 still being a tractor engine.



Based on the calculations, you engine is still air flow limited, and could possibly take even more 50 thou figures than what you have. Most of the EFI guys are still using bnak fire, not fully sequential injection like the old Cal Pack GM injection, where as the HP Holley is fully sequential, like the first 5.0 Ford port EFI. Modern EFI systems have a lot more tricks than the old style Second generation Tuned Port systems. Holley's HP module has facilty for 12 sequentially driven 8:2 peak and hold injector drivers....you could even dual layer the injectors with some tiny ones for low speed, and some killer big ones for higher speed. Meantime, it's just a case of getting it running, adjusting the fuel and sequential pulse widths, and if its raggard, reduce the plenumb volume or rephase the cam on the crank. 109 to 112, there is normally 3 degrees in it. You have a whole range of good options to tie off any low end "raggardness".


Even alternating fire on an I6 (like bank fire in a Cal Pack or EECIV 5.0/5.8/7.5 truck engine), a little in line six in the 200 to 265 sizes with little compression a big cam and a big turbo....its got a great idle if your exhaust is muffled and the pipe sizes aren't to big.

Porsche 911 Turbos in the first 3 liter rendition had 6.5:1 compression Later cams can be subbed into these, 964 series (that is the C2 and C4, '1989-'1994) camshaft duration figures 280 I. 262 E .470 .430. Porsche figured out how to tame big cams was less exhasut duration on turbo engines as well.


These turbo cars were stated as hating extra cam lift. That's not strictly true.


So on a engine that doesn't breath as well, your safe
Last edited by xctasy on Wed May 16, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #109 by pmuller9 » Wed May 16, 2018 3:40 pm

Xctasy
If the engine is limited to 5500 rpm because of the Turbocharger's compressor size and a person really wants torque from and idle (which is the case here) then why not use a short duration, high lift cam and take advantage of a higher Dynamic Compression Ratio which will produce much better low rpm torque.

With the present 300 degree cam the DCR is between 5.7 and 5.9 depending on where the intake lobe center was set at.
It was intended to be around 7 for this project.

This engine was designed with a low 8:1 static compression ratio with a short duration cam profile in mind.
The turbocharger was also chosen with the same low rpm power band as part of the criteria.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #110 by 67Straightsix » Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 am

I'm curious:
The reason I went with 8-1 compression is because the fuel octane available is 93 - I didn't want to have to buy race gas. I always thought with a turbo you want a low compression engine, but after reading these last posts, could I have gone with a higher compression ratio and been ok? (especially with the cam that's currently in the car) Just trying to be more knowledgeable about how all the components in an engine relate to each other. Thanks :)

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #111 by pmuller9 » Fri May 18, 2018 4:52 pm

The previous conversation was about Volumtric Efficiency at low rpm rather than compression ratio.

Xctasy was pointing out that if the intake port is undersized for the cylinder volume then there is high enough intake charge velocity to continue cylinder fill way after BDC and a late closing intake valve has less effect on low rpm torque because there is less intake port reversion at low rpm than one would normally expect with a long duration cam.
Also the long duration cam will naturally maintain a high VE at high rpm and the engine will rev beyond peak power.

What I pointed out is that your engine is rev limited by the turbocharger which was chosen for a low rpm power band.
Looking at the compressor map shows a recommended engine rpm limit at 5500 rpm which gives margin before running into the choke zone where the turbo can be damaged.
So if I have to limit the engine rpm to 5500 rpm then why would I want a cam that maintains a high VE above that point.
Wouldn't it be better if I used a short duration cam and closed the intake valve before port reversion to maximize low rpm torque while allowing the VE to drop off after 5500 rpm.

To answer your question, Yes
The engine as it stands now with the long duration cam could be run with a higher compression ratio but what we find is the tune-up becomes more critical and for the little amount of torque gained with a higher compression ratio can easily be made up for with a little more boost.

We ran NHRA Top Sportsman class with a 300 degree advertised duration cam but .900" valve lift.
At 2000 HP, 430 cid SBF our compression ratio was 9:1 with VP C16 race gas, 25 lbs of boost and an ice water intercooler.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #112 by drag-200stang » Fri May 18, 2018 11:22 pm

You are planing on supplementing that 93 with a water meth kit?
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #113 by 67Straightsix » Sun May 20, 2018 1:54 am

drag-200stang wrote:You are planing on supplementing that 93 with a water meth kit?


Most likely yes. It's one of the things that will be installed if needed after the car has been run on the road.Been going between controlling it with the Holley or a stand alone system. I'm also trying to decide where to place the oil catch can. Considering I have a small six there is not going to be much empty space in the engine compartment when it's finished.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #114 by xctasy » Wed May 30, 2018 12:42 pm

Mazda and some of the Aussies have understood what the Millers brothers knew back in the 30's....combustion is controlled by Exhaust and intake overlap, and principally, the exhaust event and total boost. I'm sure Rotary guy's learn a lot more than us dancin knitting needle piston engine guys because they don't loose valve gear when over reverd or leaned out to tourch down levels, where a lean out takes to the exhasut valve like a gas axe to an old iron tube. There is a very conservative approach grounded in traditional V8 cam theory that caps in line six cylinder power in the United States. This is not a criticism, its an observation. Since we are six cylinder guys, most of us like the concept of V8 style grunt, but never want to pay as much as V8 guys for it. We are all generally into a protection mode, and that doesn't help the science of creating power. This is excatly as things were in the areo engine area in the USA before World War II. Everything areo piston engind supplied to the government was designed to use a standard compound charge US turbo charger to meet the altitude requirements. The key then became making the turbo live, not making the engine as great as it could be. In 2018, we need to see the turbo as a variable that needs to change, and make the piston engine tough enoug enough. The turbo is not to be a door stop to performance aspirations.


So the cold cranking compression ratio just has to be low enough to make a worakable idle, and you can fiddle around with detonation measures by curbing peak ignition advance with boost, or playing with ignition tip and an air fuel. Then, last resort, droping exhaust timing by cam and lash repositiong.

In a competition environment, low octane makes better hp and torque than higher octane if you can modulate ignition and air fuel ratio. The octane rating has been critical since 1971, when the Petrochemcial industry found lower octane was a better use of crude. GM's trimetal catalytic converter ment leaded gasoline was OUT. Dropping lead has created a major problem for everyone. It was the easiest way to boost octane. The problem is.... traditionalists think that the Iso Octane and Research octane numbers are what give reliable power and better economy, the focus has been on adding it to the combustion event all the time. Its like running Nitrous Oxide all the time....an effective octane boost is only need in certain situatons, not all the time.


I haven't seen anything change in Turbo engine or gasoline engine building except for running higher compression rations and finding that low octane gas makes more power. Toyo Kogyo's SkyActive X, (supercharged gasoline engine) and General Motors SIDI semi diesel "air limited" non turbo gasoline engines can run on 80 octane pool gas if it were around.

Back to pmuller9's point. The issue is one of matching and blance. The idea is for a given turbo, avoid destroying turbo impellors. Match octane to expected boost, and get the best of both worlds. Thing is....a turbo is just a gas turbine that shares its combustion chamber with a gasoline engine. Despite the total importance of the turbo sizing, it'is still much easier to destroy an engine than a turbo. Eddy Tassone and Active Automotive in Australia hit the right formula in the Noughties with a 1376 rwhp pull in a 6.3 liter 308 stroked to 383 twin turbo Holden Commodore....


Image


Anthony Rodriguez at Maztech of Melbourne tuned it.

https://www.facebook.com/MaztechOfMelbourne/

Antony had a method that dumped timing, leaned it out, and then over fueled it to create what everyone else thought was a hidden N20 kit. As a result, Eddy was hooked on turbos. and this guy does 189 mph at the 2626 foot mark before deploying the parachut in a street '1300hp daily-driven VZ HSV GTOPontiac GTO (the Monaro one).

Any IRS car is a risk on the track, Eddy has wrecked his, but its been raced and tuned, and he's lynched on to understanding the basics of making traditional OHV US engines with a turbo stand up and beg. Most of that info has come the A Rodriguez.


The Holden Torana was tuned by the same company. The in line six made much more power safely than people expected.


Image


Eddy Tassone wrote:With drag racing under our belt we decided to give HorsePower Hero's at Summernats a try and being from the West Coast we were referred to as the underdogs...That all changed when we walked away with HP Heroes trophy in the highly scrutinised event with 1376rwhp on unleaded pump fuel and the first time 1000+rwkw was recorded on a Dyno Dynamics dyno.

2003 Eddy Tassone VH Commodore 1376rwhp


Image
Eddy Tassone took this car to the 2003 Summernats, ran up 1376 HP on the dyno and the Eastern Staters spat the dummy.
"Your running nitros!" they cried.
No he wasn't and he took off the manifold to prove it.

The Summernats dyno shoot out goes to a Sand Groper.

From there it was nonstop controversy, critics saying the car could not sustain multiple runs and would not run mph etc.
Straight to the track again to prove the critics wrong the car run a massive 8.11@176mph to become the fastest 10 inch tyred, standard suspension car in the world at the time and and breaking the Super Sedan MPH record at the Motorplex.

Then with a series of Dyno comps around Australia, both the AME and Holden Vs Ford shows, the car went on to win 3 years straight, as well as being the first car to make over 1000rwhp in every state bar Northern Terriotory, with a combined 120 1000+hp dyno pulls for crowds all around Australia putting to rest the reliability rumours including another Summernats win at Summernats 18
Last edited by xctasy on Mon May 13, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #115 by Wesman07 » Wed May 30, 2018 11:09 pm

Very interesting read!

So he retarded the timing and leaned it out? Then added timing and fuel?

Why did that work?
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #116 by xctasy » Thu May 31, 2018 3:04 pm

Mark Arblaster from Australian Street Machine in March 2003 explained it better than I. IIRC, Eddy created an aligmighty lean condition with little advance that almost stalled the turbo, almost holed pistions. then dumped fuel in while it was just starting to explode. Then the timing got changed. The result was like a statified charge, with a real rich layer of low octane gas in the cylinder chamber. The results were eruptive...50 psi of boost when all he could get in the past was 35 psi, and hp up from 1238 to 1376, probably more due to tire losses and wheelspin.

An engine isn't a steady state, you can almost blow it up in a lean torch down, then add fuel. The turbo is in lag, so you avoid surge by sudden, non constant retarding of ignition and then dumping rich fuel loads.

While off boost, you treat a turbo engine like any other. The exhaust timing governs what happens at the turbo. The turbo is a jet engine sharing the piston engines combustion chamber, but the gasoline engine is the parent unless you put injectors down stream of the engine, upstream of the turbo.

Some of the Rotary guys, they have learned how you can time the lean to rich sequence, the ignition and the exhaust shut to intake opening "overlap" to play agianst the turbo sizing. Bob broke the ice back in 2003.

I've got a few pages to read sometime, I have the quote on how its done from Australian Street Machine...
Last edited by xctasy on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #117 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Updates?
Did you get the car running on the road?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #118 by 67Straightsix » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:33 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Updates?
Did you get the car running on the road?

Not yet. Once I got the engine running in the car I felt like the car should be just about finished! When I focused on the rest of the car I realized there was a lot more to do than I'd thought! Since I posted the video, I've installed the brakes - that took more fabrication then expected. I got Wilwood disc brakes "complete with brackets" from a buddy - the brackets were for a different spindle so I had to make my own. Ran new brake lines from front to rear. My engine is shoved back more than most so I had to find a driveshaft four inches shorter than stock. Found a driveshaft and installed that. Still need to finish the interior, install the bumper, valance and grill, install exhaust system, and get it aligned - etc, etc, etc... I've been working on it everyday for the last two months and I'm finally seeing a light at the end of the tunnel! It should be on the road in the next week or so.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #119 by 67Straightsix » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:46 pm

Quick update. Took the Mustang on its first test drive to the gas station and back :D It ran a little rich - need to do some real world tuning - that will be tomorrow. So far, so good :thumbup:

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #120 by pmuller9 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:04 pm

Did you run any boost during the short trip?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #121 by 67Straightsix » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:35 am

pmuller9 wrote:Did you run any boost during the short trip?


I did get it into boost briefly - about 4psi - not long enough to tell how the car runs.
My tuning session did not go well - the guy that's helping me tune the car is on a tight schedule so we didn't have a lot of time. Right off the bat my fuel pressure readings on the computer were inaccurate (showing 5psi). Tried switching out the fuel pressure sensor with one we know works and the psi registered 153psi which we decided was not correct either. That was problem #1. Problem #2: at idle around 800rpm I have no vacuum - I was getting about 1psi in the manifold. If I put the rpm's at 1100, I have vacuum. I disconnected the tubing between the turbo and the throttle body to see if that would change anything and that made the idle much worse. I'm assuming I have a vacuum leak - I have several things I'm going to check, but would like any input/advice.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #122 by pmuller9 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:12 am

On our race turbo engines where there was lots of plumbing and "V" clamps, I would plug the exhaust outlet and also make a plug for the intercooler inlet with a fitting that would allow me to attach my leak down tester so I could regulate the air pressure going into the system.
This way the exhaust system, engine and intake system is pressurized and you can find all leaks.
Keep the pressure under 20 psi.

I'm not expecting any major leaks since there was 1 psi at 800 rpm (This is not from the turbo) but it is good to check for all leaks anyway.

Another thing is to do a compression check just to be sure all the valves are closing on the seats and not being held open by a lifter.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #123 by guhfluh » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:37 pm

67Straightsix wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:Did you run any boost during the short trip?


I did get it into boost briefly - about 4psi - not long enough to tell how the car runs.
My tuning session did not go well - the guy that's helping me tune the car is on a tight schedule so we didn't have a lot of time. Right off the bat my fuel pressure readings on the computer were inaccurate (showing 5psi). Tried switching out the fuel pressure sensor with one we know works and the psi registered 153psi which we decided was not correct either. That was problem #1. Problem #2: at idle around 800rpm I have no vacuum - I was getting about 1psi in the manifold. If I put the rpm's at 1100, I have vacuum. I disconnected the tubing between the turbo and the throttle body to see if that would change anything and that made the idle much worse. I'm assuming I have a vacuum leak - I have several things I'm going to check, but would like any input/advice.

Sounds fairly typical of a big cam generating more vacuum at higher rpm above a low idle. What does sound off is the MAP sensor scaling values, which sound typical of a mismatch in programming the sensor type you're running. I'd recheck and confirm what bar MAP sensor you're running then verify the tune file has it saved correctly. You can then confirm its reading correctly at key on engine off that it reads very close to the current baro reading wherever you live. For me at sea level, it's always right at 100kpa
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #124 by 67Straightsix » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:34 pm

I checked for vacuum leaks and checked compression - no vacuum leaks and compression is 150psi. I think guhfluh might be onto something with the map sensor, but I'm not sure how because when I originally tuned the engine we had the same sensors on it (I haven't changed anything - and the map sensor is the correct one) Back then the fuel tables looked smooth and consistent and now they're not. The computer acts like it's getting false information and is trying to correct an issue that doesn't exist. My tuner guy is in the process of moving his shop and has been unavailable - so I'm taking a crash course on learning how to tune :bang: I'm still trying to pin point exactly what my problem is - no one I've talked to has been able to figure it out. As always thanks for all the input and suggestions - I couldn't have gotten this far without it :thumbup:

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #125 by guhfluh » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:20 pm

Checking for the correct sensor scaling is pretty easy. You just connect to the ECU with your laptop or touchscreen and pull up the current sensor readings. With the ECU powered up, but the engine not running, compare the current barometric reading for your area at that time (Google on a phone works quick and easy) to what the ECU is displaying for a MAP reading(the MAP should be displayed in kpa). If the two are off more than 5-10kpa max, then you have a problem.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #126 by pmuller9 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:00 pm

The 150 psi compression seems very high for a cam with a 300 degree intake lobe duration and an 8:1 compression ratio which may indicate that the cam timing is way off.
The cam card shows the LSA as 115 degrees which puts the intake lobe center at 111 degrees ATDC for a 4 degree advance.

Where did you set the intake lobe center when you installed the cam?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #127 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:25 am

Update?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #128 by 67Straightsix » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:45 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The 150 psi compression seems very high for a cam with a 300 degree intake lobe duration and an 8:1 compression ratio which may indicate that the cam timing is way off.
The cam card shows the LSA as 115 degrees which puts the intake lobe center at 111 degrees ATDC for a 4 degree advance.

Where did you set the intake lobe center when you installed the cam?


Good question, and the reason I have not responded is because if that's the case... :arg: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
I think I set it correctly at 4 degrees, but your question makes a lot of sense so now I'm doubting myself :hmmm:

The car starts right up and idles about 800rpm - it runs until it warms up then the car starts running too rich and dies. I'm still waiting to have my computer guy take a look at it. Very frustrated at the moment and am starting a 7 day work week for three months so I have to walk away from the build for awhile. But don't worry, I will get back to it and get this all figured out.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #129 by thatblue_67stang » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:10 am

67Straightsix wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:The 150 psi compression seems very high for a cam with a 300 degree intake lobe duration and an 8:1 compression ratio which may indicate that the cam timing is way off.
The cam card shows the LSA as 115 degrees which puts the intake lobe center at 111 degrees ATDC for a 4 degree advance.

Where did you set the intake lobe center when you installed the cam?


Good question, and the reason I have not responded is because if that's the case... :arg: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
I think I set it correctly at 4 degrees, but your question makes a lot of sense so now I'm doubting myself :hmmm:

The car starts right up and idles about 800rpm - it runs until it warms up then the car starts running too rich and dies. I'm still waiting to have my computer guy take a look at it. Very frustrated at the moment and am starting a 7 day work week for three months so I have to walk away from the build for awhile. But don't worry, I will get back to it and get this all figured out.





would loved to have gone this route with my turbo build. but ultimately to much money so ill be fine with mine for now. Image going to throw a rb25 in it later but when i turn up the boost 15 psi should be quite fun
Brayton
1967 Ford Mustang Coupe
200 Inline 6 Turbo Charged

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #130 by 67Straightsix » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:22 pm

End of year update: we put a new tune on the car and it purrs, starts right up, and the fuel map is nice and smooth now. Been working on finishing the rest of the car - have to polish and wax and put a few finishing touches on the interior. I'm still searching for original window trim to finish out the windows (If at all possible keep your original window trim for the windshield and back window - the new stuff is absolute crap)

Because of the cam, the aluminum flywheel and highway gearing I have to get the rpms up to get the car rolling - once the car is moving it is FUN - the acceleration is awesome and I still only have 4psi of boost (after I put more miles on the car, I'll start increasing the boost). I'm going to install a true trac with 373 gears which will help get the car off the line nicely. I think the lower gears will suit the engine better.

Been following your build (thatblue_67stang) - good job! Sometimes I wish I'd taken your route :D






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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #131 by drag-200stang » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:03 am

:beer: Car looks great.
I could not drive my wife's escort without stalling it four or five times (no torque ,small flywheel) She had no problem ,she was used to it...The gear change will help.
What rpm does it quit pulling...If you have dared it yet ?
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #132 by 67Straightsix » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:35 pm

drag-200stang wrote::beer: Car looks great.


Thank you. My wife gets the credit for the paint job turning as good as it did. She put in a couple hundred hours block and wet sanding (more than I was willing to do) She also laid out the tape for the stripes because "apparently" mine weren't straight :?

The rpm's - I've had it up to 4,300 the car pulls hard at that point - I don't want to push it too hard yet until I sort out a few things. I think P.Muller is correct - the turbo is too small for the cam. I'm going to drive the car for awhile and figure out which one I want to change. My plan for the car changed during mid-stream and ended up going more performance than I'd originally planned. So I need to decide what the primary use of the car is going to be and adjust accordingly.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #133 by pmuller9 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:51 pm

The turbo was sized to make power from 2000 to 5500 rpm with a 6000 rpm limit.
With the correct cam it would be blast to drive on the street.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #134 by fast64ranchero » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:02 pm

Just my 2 cents, I think the thing is going to run really well from 3200- 5500 rpm. leave the cam in it until you get it tuned and give it a fair shake. My head was similar to your head, the cam was close (113 LC) to the same although my engine had more cubes it ran very well from 2800 to 5200 rpm's. I did find that the more boost I gave it, the better manners the engine had, turbo spooled quicker, power came in earlier and the car just ran better. I ran 18lbs on 91 octane pump gas 20 psi with Octane booster. . You have the advantage of EFI so timing and fuel control your setup will be much better. You have a 350 whp pump gas setup when tuned with more boost.
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #135 by thatblue_67stang » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:59 pm

67Straightsix wrote:End of year update: we put a new tune on the car and it purrs, starts right up, and the fuel map is nice and smooth now. Been working on finishing the rest of the car - have to polish and wax and put a few finishing touches on the interior. I'm still searching for original window trim to finish out the windows (If at all possible keep your original window trim for the windshield and back window - the new stuff is absolute crap)

Because of the cam, the aluminum flywheel and highway gearing I have to get the rpms up to get the car rolling - once the car is moving it is FUN - the acceleration is awesome and I still only have 4psi of boost (after I put more miles on the car, I'll start increasing the boost). I'm going to install a true trac with 373 gears which will help get the car off the line nicely. I think the lower gears will suit the engine better.

Been following your build (thatblue_67stang) - good job! Sometimes I wish I'd taken your route :D






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thanks that means alot. as of this winter im throwing a 8.8 in with 3.73 gear. im also widebodying it and slappinng some 315s on the rear. then i hope to turn it up to about 10psi. it should be a beast. here is a render of what its going to look like. i am also making my own k member and custom suspension for my car with custom piece i have designed myself to hold a fully adjustable upper control arm to the stock mounting holes

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Brayton
1967 Ford Mustang Coupe
200 Inline 6 Turbo Charged

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #136 by thatblue_67stang » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:14 pm

thatblue_67stang wrote:
67Straightsix wrote:End of year update: we put a new tune on the car and it purrs, starts right up, and the fuel map is nice and smooth now. Been working on finishing the rest of the car - have to polish and wax and put a few finishing touches on the interior. I'm still searching for original window trim to finish out the windows (If at all possible keep your original window trim for the windshield and back window - the new stuff is absolute crap)

Because of the cam, the aluminum flywheel and highway gearing I have to get the rpms up to get the car rolling - once the car is moving it is FUN - the acceleration is awesome and I still only have 4psi of boost (after I put more miles on the car, I'll start increasing the boost). I'm going to install a true trac with 373 gears which will help get the car off the line nicely. I think the lower gears will suit the engine better.

Been following your build (thatblue_67stang) - good job! Sometimes I wish I'd taken your route :D






Image
Image
Image



thanks that means alot. as of this winter im throwing a 8.8 in with 3.73 gear. im also widebodying it and slappinng some 315s on the rear. then i hope to turn it up to about 10psi. it should be a beast. here is a render of what its going to look like. i am also making my own k member and custom suspension for my car with custom piece i have designed myself to hold a fully adjustable upper control arm to the stock mounting holes

Image
Image
Brayton
1967 Ford Mustang Coupe
200 Inline 6 Turbo Charged

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #137 by fast64ranchero » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:29 pm

I'm confused, are thatbluestang and 67straightsix the same or is Thatbluestang hijacking this thread?
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #138 by thatblue_67stang » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:35 am

fast64ranchero wrote:I'm confused, are thatbluestang and 67straightsix the same or is Thatbluestang hijacking this thread?


Not the same person and havent hijacked this thread. Thanks for your concern though.
Brayton
1967 Ford Mustang Coupe
200 Inline 6 Turbo Charged

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #139 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:38 pm

67Straightsix
Any Updates?
I know the weather has prevented many from doing very much.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #140 by 67Straightsix » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:20 pm

pmuller9 wrote:67Straightsix
Any Updates?
I know the weather has prevented many from doing very much.

Yes, the rain has put a damper (haha) on things. Since my last post I've taken it out for three 40 mile test drives to work out the kinks. My impressions so far; from idle to 1500 rpm it drives like a dog - from 1800rpm to about 2800 it pulls very strong - at 2800 the car absolutely puts you in your seat and I'm being very light-footed on the throttle. I haven't pushed it past 4000rpm yet. The rear end has 2.79 gear ratio which is wrong for my engine and transmission - I'm currently building a more suitable rear end. Second gear is good until 45mph - can go 55 easily in third - and can't get into 5th until 80mph. At 60mph in 4th gear I'm turning 2000rpm. On one of my test drives, we went up a mountain road - the car loved the hills - pulling the hills the engine did much better than in the flats - I think a lower gear ratio will help the car. So far I'm happy with how the car drives - I'm new at driving a turbo car so I'm still getting used to the way it delivers power as compared to a non-turbo car. I've got the boost set at 10psi.

The ar ratio at idle is about 13/1 and driving it's between 13.5 and 12 - I'm wondering if that's a fuel good ratio? I still have more tuning to do. My fan controller has not been reliable - the good news is that even without the fan the car stays below 209 degrees in traffic and reads 185 while driving.

pmuller9 - I concede that for driving around town a milder cam would be better. But for now I just want to drive the damn car and I live 40 miles from Thunder Hill! (a really fun road course)

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #141 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:43 pm

That's great news!

The intake and exhaust system you built is paying off.
Between that and the smaller turbocharger, the cam is being tamed.
Also much credit to you again for working hard on the tune-up to make it come together this well.
The rear gear change will really make it fun.
Can't wait till you can put your foot in it and wind it to 5500 rpm.

Keep us posted as we all want to go along for the ride.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #142 by guhfluh » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:07 pm

67Straightsix wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:67Straightsix
Any Updates?
I know the weather has prevented many from doing very much.

Yes, the rain has put a damper (haha) on things. Since my last post I've taken it out for three 40 mile test drives to work out the kinks. My impressions so far; from idle to 1500 rpm it drives like a dog - from 1800rpm to about 2800 it pulls very strong - at 2800 the car absolutely puts you in your seat and I'm being very light-footed on the throttle. I haven't pushed it past 4000rpm yet. The rear end has 2.79 gear ratio which is wrong for my engine and transmission - I'm currently building a more suitable rear end. Second gear is good until 45mph - can go 55 easily in third - and can't get into 5th until 80mph. At 60mph in 4th gear I'm turning 2000rpm. On one of my test drives, we went up a mountain road - the car loved the hills - pulling the hills the engine did much better than in the flats - I think a lower gear ratio will help the car. So far I'm happy with how the car drives - I'm new at driving a turbo car so I'm still getting used to the way it delivers power as compared to a non-turbo car. I've got the boost set at 10psi.

The ar ratio at idle is about 13/1 and driving it's between 13.5 and 12 - I'm wondering if that's a fuel good ratio? I still have more tuning to do. My fan controller has not been reliable - the good news is that even without the fan the car stays below 209 degrees in traffic and reads 185 while driving.

pmuller9 - I concede that for driving around town a milder cam would be better. But for now I just want to drive the damn car and I live 40 miles from Thunder Hill! (a really fun road course)

13:1AFR at idle is okay. 12-13.5AFR during cruise is rich. 12:1 cruising is way rich. 13.5 cruising is not horrible, but still rich for cruise and probably drives well. 15-16:1 cruising is better for fuel economy, but won't be powerful and may need more timing to sustain without surge. 12-13.5 is good for wide open and part throttle accel. Under boost, tapering from 13 to less than 12 as boost rises, depending on how much is run.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #143 by fast64ranchero » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:15 pm

[/quote]
13:1AFR at idle is okay. 12-13.5AFR during cruise is rich. 12:1 cruising is way rich. 13.5 cruising is not horrible, but still rich for cruise and probably drives well. 15-16:1 cruising is better for fuel economy, but won't be powerful and may need more timing to sustain without surge. 12-13.5 is good for wide open and part throttle accel. Under boost, tapering from 13 to less than 12 as boost rises, depending on how much is run.[/quote]


Remember if you use fuel that has 10%-15% Ethanol Stoch is no longer 14.7 it is more like 14.2-13.8 (ish)
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #144 by pmuller9 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:05 pm

Any changes since early March?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #145 by xctasy » Sun May 12, 2019 7:36 pm

67Straightsix and 'muller'.

Both of you and thatblue_67stang and fast64ranchero too.

And the others...I know your out there...

Props to you all.

pmuller9, you are right about the dynamic and static compression being too low, and the cold cranking compression probably being too high. It may bee that aligning the csm heads up without the 4 degree advance might help the idle to 1100 rpm area.

First up I'd go 3.73 gears. Normally, I like 3.20-3.36's for a 3.3, that is what normally works with short 2.95 firsts found in T5's from V8's.


Drag racers say for straight line power, go cubic inches.

My turbo mantra is if you "think" you've over cooked the cam timing for off boost transition, then add upstream air or fuel (anti lag) down or upstream to the turbo to stop it stalling. Downstram exahsut air speed is 10 times more important than raw CFM flow numbers.

The turbo size, cam verseses port area thing is more related to shapes than cfm figures, but an addition of more cfm to the turbo impellor will always help.

The info I got when I was a little boy late 1970's was to add an AIR pump. On Hugh Mcinnes's early copy of Turbocharging,


the early copy, not the later one edited. Man, I hate people editing books, because they remove really important info which they think is irrelevent or wrong.

Image


In a picture, Hughe showed a tunner who used a 17 pound per hour NipponDenso Air Injection Reactor A.I.R pump to add 3.5 cfm of air flow to the turbo on a propane 18R powered SR5 Toyota pickup.

Pressure equals roh(air or exhaust density) times gravity times pressure head.

Adding to the psi from 800 rpm to before 1050 rpm helps idle.

For times when you need a bigger cam with proper off the lash reading that make performance, The low speed idle thing is easily taken car of by dumping the PCV valve before to turbo, and using an AIR pump.

Blow by at wide open throttle on a boosted 200 six is about 5 cfm.
A stock Ford six or 5.0-5.8 V8 air pump rated at 31lb/hr air pump yields 6.9 cfm.

If you combine the PCV and an AIR pump, you will add cfm to the base stall speed of the turbo, and help idle.

All the early Robert L Bosch injection systems used a fiddle valve (auxilary Vent Valve) to control the PCV and air into the Injection unit so the vane meter or MAP or MAF could be controlled properly.

Image


The simple facts are this:-

On any two valve per cylinder 3.3 liter engine,

a 1973 Holden Torana GTR XU1
a turbo Mustang 200,
an air cooled production car 1978-1989 Porsche 930 Turbo.
a 3.3 liter Porsche 935 twin-turbocharged FIA Group 5 or IMSA racer...

The off the cam performance is modest, and can cause off idle transition/ progression problems.

The way to get around them isn't to go down on cam size, but to control the exhaust or Gas turbine part.

Stock iron headers on the 235-245 hp 1973 racing Torana was a perfect example of making sure the 5th stroke of the exhaust had enough flow velocity to drag more cfm out of the engine.

In fact, the 202 Holden engine is the key thing to observe. With the right cam, it can easily make 235 hp, but the exhaust defines how close to that you get. One year ealier, the engine got 216 hp net at the flywheel, and the next year, the engine with a slightly smaller cam than the other two race cars had better low end torque...but they all had the iron header system, and with just a divider welded in to it, it made an extra 10 hp, tripping the 240 to 245 hp mark with a nearly stock cast iron dual outlet factory header.

Porsche's 930 3.0 and 3.3's, like Ford in the emission era 5.0 fromn 1986 to 2002, kept the exhaust duration down for emissions but they had a vast array of special cams with more intake duration. The traditional engineerig response was right for emissions, but they had access to AIR pumps, and yet didn't use it as a smog mop up device with more stout cams.

You can go downwards and make a back step to a split pattern cam with reduced exhaust duration, and attempt to find the turbos sweet spot, or just augement the abdiatic cycle with more AIR pump or PCV air.

In 1988, David Vizard in the SOHC Pinto book,

Image

showed just what a T-4 turbo needed, and his crash off the turbo boost avoidance was to look at a more efficent exhaust, but still try to keep the cam duration up.

Try a used LS1 Secondary AIR injection system, and one or two Rock Auto check valves with a 7/8 to 1 inch adaptor to an area before the turbo.

Image
ACDelco 215-414 GM Original Equipment Secondary Air Injection Pump


The only thing I'd say is whatch the volts consumption for running the fans, the AIR pump, and the EDIS. If your running in a new engine, you'll suffer the same issue Jimbo65 had when he used a 130A alternator with a tight rope seal. It'll not want toi run below 950 rpm. Everyone was thinking the cam, big 2V head was hurting his idle. It wasn't... it was accessory and running in drag.

Be mind full of that, and add an electric AIR pump, and make sure your current drain doesn't hurt your igntion system or idle tracking speeds.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

67Straightsix
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #146 by 67Straightsix » Tue May 14, 2019 2:08 am

First,thanks for the replies on air-fuel ratios. Last week I got the rear gears changed. I now have a true-trac with 3.55 gears. I've driven about 60 miles on the new rear end. Big difference, much more power from idle. No more finessing clutch and throttle to get it going.The car runs much better at all rpms. Driving at 60 in fifth is just under 2000 rpm. With the new gears the turbo compensates for the big cam at lower rpms.
The car is running rich,I didn't want to start playing with the tune until I changed gears.Now I'll start data logging and dial in air fuel ratio.
Now a bit of frustrating news. Rear main is dripping oil. I've been following the other threads on this problem. thinking about trying vacuum pump solution.The biggest problem is I'm running out of space to put anything.

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xctasy
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #147 by xctasy » Tue May 14, 2019 2:29 am

Well done . 3.55, yeah!

The problem is surface texture where the new two piece PVC seal sits. Its smoothened in service from the peak to trough depth roughness Ford designed the cars 3.375"crank flange to use, and a manual clutch makes the flange cut into the seal, especially if its got longer than designed loads.

Reapply a rope seal.

The AIR pump can fit in behind the fender. 64 ranchero's is a Rover Mini pump, and it can pull out blowby, but nothing can fix the surface texture of a smoothened out crank flange slinger. Cars get turned off. Oil then still drips.

This is a manual gearbox and small crank flange issue all 273 Mopars, early front drive 183 and 231 BOP V6 converted to manuals also have if they are born with the small flange.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

pmuller9
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Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: turbo 200 build

Post #148 by pmuller9 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:37 pm

67Straightsix wrote:Thinking about trying vacuum pump solution.The biggest problem is I'm running out of space to put anything.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=79516

drag-200stang
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Location: Michigan

Re: turbo 200 build

Post #149 by drag-200stang » Thu May 23, 2019 9:23 am

Do you have room to add a 2 barr map. sensor on your hp ?
It would be nice to log pan pressure and get an idea of what is happening and when.
I wonder if a suck to dry timer set to low on the vac pump would help on shut off, may not be necessary.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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