turbo 200 build

pmuller9

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That's great news!

The intake and exhaust system you built is paying off.
Between that and the smaller turbocharger, the cam is being tamed.
Also much credit to you again for working hard on the tune-up to make it come together this well.
The rear gear change will really make it fun.
Can't wait till you can put your foot in it and wind it to 5500 rpm.

Keep us posted as we all want to go along for the ride.
 

guhfluh

Famous Member
67Straightsix":39509ruy said:
pmuller9":39509ruy said:
67Straightsix
Any Updates?
I know the weather has prevented many from doing very much.
Yes, the rain has put a damper (haha) on things. Since my last post I've taken it out for three 40 mile test drives to work out the kinks. My impressions so far; from idle to 1500 rpm it drives like a dog - from 1800rpm to about 2800 it pulls very strong - at 2800 the car absolutely puts you in your seat and I'm being very light-footed on the throttle. I haven't pushed it past 4000rpm yet. The rear end has 2.79 gear ratio which is wrong for my engine and transmission - I'm currently building a more suitable rear end. Second gear is good until 45mph - can go 55 easily in third - and can't get into 5th until 80mph. At 60mph in 4th gear I'm turning 2000rpm. On one of my test drives, we went up a mountain road - the car loved the hills - pulling the hills the engine did much better than in the flats - I think a lower gear ratio will help the car. So far I'm happy with how the car drives - I'm new at driving a turbo car so I'm still getting used to the way it delivers power as compared to a non-turbo car. I've got the boost set at 10psi.

The ar ratio at idle is about 13/1 and driving it's between 13.5 and 12 - I'm wondering if that's a fuel good ratio? I still have more tuning to do. My fan controller has not been reliable - the good news is that even without the fan the car stays below 209 degrees in traffic and reads 185 while driving.

pmuller9 - I concede that for driving around town a milder cam would be better. But for now I just want to drive the damn car and I live 40 miles from Thunder Hill! (a really fun road course)
13:1AFR at idle is okay. 12-13.5AFR during cruise is rich. 12:1 cruising is way rich. 13.5 cruising is not horrible, but still rich for cruise and probably drives well. 15-16:1 cruising is better for fuel economy, but won't be powerful and may need more timing to sustain without surge. 12-13.5 is good for wide open and part throttle accel. Under boost, tapering from 13 to less than 12 as boost rises, depending on how much is run.
 

fast64ranchero

Well-known member
[/quote]
13:1AFR at idle is okay. 12-13.5AFR during cruise is rich. 12:1 cruising is way rich. 13.5 cruising is not horrible, but still rich for cruise and probably drives well. 15-16:1 cruising is better for fuel economy, but won't be powerful and may need more timing to sustain without surge. 12-13.5 is good for wide open and part throttle accel. Under boost, tapering from 13 to less than 12 as boost rises, depending on how much is run.[/quote]


Remember if you use fuel that has 10%-15% Ethanol Stoch is no longer 14.7 it is more like 14.2-13.8 (ish)
 

xctasy

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67Straightsix and 'muller'.

Both of you and thatblue_67stang and fast64ranchero too.

And the others...I know your out there...

Props to you all.

pmuller9, you are right about the dynamic and static compression being too low, and the cold cranking compression probably being too high. It may bee that aligning the csm heads up without the 4 degree advance might help the idle to 1100 rpm area.

First up I'd go 3.73 gears. Normally, I like 3.20-3.36's for a 3.3, that is what normally works with short 2.95 firsts found in T5's from V8's.


Drag racers say for straight line power, go cubic inches.

My turbo mantra is if you "think" you've over cooked the cam timing for off boost transition, then add upstream air or fuel (anti lag) down or upstream to the turbo to stop it stalling. Downstram exahsut air speed is 10 times more important than raw CFM flow numbers.

The turbo size, cam verseses port area thing is more related to shapes than cfm figures, but an addition of more cfm to the turbo impellor will always help.

The info I got when I was a little boy late 1970's was to add an AIR pump. On Hugh Mcinnes's early copy of Turbocharging,


the early copy, not the later one edited. Man, I hate people editing books, because they remove really important info which they think is irrelevent or wrong.

9780912656052-us-300.jpg



In a picture, Hughe showed a tunner who used a 17 pound per hour NipponDenso Air Injection Reactor A.I.R pump to add 3.5 cfm of air flow to the turbo on a propane 18R powered SR5 Toyota pickup.

Pressure equals roh(air or exhaust density) times gravity times pressure head.

Adding to the psi from 800 rpm to before 1050 rpm helps idle.

For times when you need a bigger cam with proper off the lash reading that make performance, The low speed idle thing is easily taken car of by dumping the PCV valve before to turbo, and using an AIR pump.

Blow by at wide open throttle on a boosted 200 six is about 5 cfm.
A stock Ford six or 5.0-5.8 V8 air pump rated at 31lb/hr air pump yields 6.9 cfm.

If you combine the PCV and an AIR pump, you will add cfm to the base stall speed of the turbo, and help idle.

All the early Robert L Bosch injection systems used a fiddle valve (auxilary Vent Valve) to control the PCV and air into the Injection unit so the vane meter or MAP or MAF could be controlled properly.

XEEFISCHEMATIC.jpg



The simple facts are this:-

On any two valve per cylinder 3.3 liter engine,

a 1973 Holden Torana GTR XU1
a turbo Mustang 200,
an air cooled production car 1978-1989 Porsche 930 Turbo.
a 3.3 liter Porsche 935 twin-turbocharged FIA Group 5 or IMSA racer...

The off the cam performance is modest, and can cause off idle transition/ progression problems.

The way to get around them isn't to go down on cam size, but to control the exhaust or Gas turbine part.

Stock iron headers on the 235-245 hp 1973 racing Torana was a perfect example of making sure the 5th stroke of the exhaust had enough flow velocity to drag more cfm out of the engine.

In fact, the 202 Holden engine is the key thing to observe. With the right cam, it can easily make 235 hp, but the exhaust defines how close to that you get. One year ealier, the engine got 216 hp net at the flywheel, and the next year, the engine with a slightly smaller cam than the other two race cars had better low end torque...but they all had the iron header system, and with just a divider welded in to it, it made an extra 10 hp, tripping the 240 to 245 hp mark with a nearly stock cast iron dual outlet factory header.

Porsche's 930 3.0 and 3.3's, like Ford in the emission era 5.0 fromn 1986 to 2002, kept the exhaust duration down for emissions but they had a vast array of special cams with more intake duration. The traditional engineerig response was right for emissions, but they had access to AIR pumps, and yet didn't use it as a smog mop up device with more stout cams.

You can go downwards and make a back step to a split pattern cam with reduced exhaust duration, and attempt to find the turbos sweet spot, or just augement the abdiatic cycle with more AIR pump or PCV air.

In 1988, David Vizard in the SOHC Pinto book,

9780863430855_p0_v1_s550x406.jpg


showed just what a T-4 turbo needed, and his crash off the turbo boost avoidance was to look at a more efficent exhaust, but still try to keep the cam duration up.

Try a used LS1 Secondary AIR injection system, and one or two Rock Auto check valves with a 7/8 to 1 inch adaptor to an area before the turbo.

air_pump_ls1.jpg

ACDelco 215-414 GM Original Equipment Secondary Air Injection Pump


The only thing I'd say is whatch the volts consumption for running the fans, the AIR pump, and the EDIS. If your running in a new engine, you'll suffer the same issue Jimbo65 had when he used a 130A alternator with a tight rope seal. It'll not want toi run below 950 rpm. Everyone was thinking the cam, big 2V head was hurting his idle. It wasn't... it was accessory and running in drag.

Be mind full of that, and add an electric AIR pump, and make sure your current drain doesn't hurt your igntion system or idle tracking speeds.
 

67Straightsix

Well-known member
First,thanks for the replies on air-fuel ratios. Last week I got the rear gears changed. I now have a true-trac with 3.55 gears. I've driven about 60 miles on the new rear end. Big difference, much more power from idle. No more finessing clutch and throttle to get it going.The car runs much better at all rpms. Driving at 60 in fifth is just under 2000 rpm. With the new gears the turbo compensates for the big cam at lower rpms.
The car is running rich,I didn't want to start playing with the tune until I changed gears.Now I'll start data logging and dial in air fuel ratio.
Now a bit of frustrating news. Rear main is dripping oil. I've been following the other threads on this problem. thinking about trying vacuum pump solution.The biggest problem is I'm running out of space to put anything.
 

xctasy

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Well done . 3.55, yeah!

The problem is surface texture where the new two piece PVC seal sits. Its smoothened in service from the peak to trough depth roughness Ford designed the cars 3.375"crank flange to use, and a manual clutch makes the flange cut into the seal, especially if its got longer than designed loads.

Reapply a rope seal.

The AIR pump can fit in behind the fender. 64 ranchero's is a Rover Mini pump, and it can pull out blowby, but nothing can fix the surface texture of a smoothened out crank flange slinger. Cars get turned off. Oil then still drips.

This is a manual gearbox and small crank flange issue all 273 Mopars, early front drive 183 and 231 BOP V6 converted to manuals also have if they are born with the small flange.
 

drag-200stang

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Do you have room to add a 2 barr map. sensor on your hp ?
It would be nice to log pan pressure and get an idea of what is happening and when.
I wonder if a suck to dry timer set to low on the vac pump would help on shut off, may not be necessary.
 

67Straightsix

Well-known member
I didn't realize it's been so long since I last posted! I've put the oil situation aside for the time being because I've been trying to trouble shoot a bigger problem for about a month now - maybe one of you can help me. I was sorting the car out - driving it to work and back (20 miles each way) The car was running very good until one day I tried to pass a car and the engine just died momentarily. Getting home the engine kept cutting out - I would push in the clutch and it would start again. Once home I checked all my electrical connections, checked compression, rocker arm adjustments, cam and crank sensor, i.a.c., t.p.s., map sensor and everything is ok. For weeks now the car starts right up and takes about 5 minutes to warm up - runs perfectly for about 15-20 minutes and then like clockwork the engine starts momentarily stalling and I have to push in the clutch to start it up again (it doesn't stay running it keeps stalling out). The engine goes lean like I turned the injectors off. I checked my fuel system and it all seems normal - no red flags. I've been data logging but I'm not knowledgeable enough to interpret the data and pinpoint the problem. I'm looking for someone now to help me figure this out. This is such an odd ball engine most of the people I talk to are reluctant to help. :banghead: I was waiting to post some positive news but since you asked...
 

xctasy

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Air in fuel. Its a common issue with EFI. The key point is the check real fuel pressure, and actual air fuel ratio. Part if the issue is how far a return line is from the pump pickup. Every other country, Ford used a dual pump delivery with a stilage pot to keep fuel from being emulsified into a vapour in the delivery line to the injectors.

9 times out of 10, the normal approach to US after market systems is fine, but hot fuel handling problems are often miss diagnosed, and the problems are not understood. The problem should be checked with the tail of the car raised at a 15% rake like you are reversing up a Sanfrancisco Street , and the car run without wheels to make it safe to test. Low fuel situations or high gradients normally aerate the fuel and cause kean outs. Loading the axle and engine when its in high gear with your foot brake will allow you to find an underload fuel delivery problem if that exists.

If that goes fine, then look at air leaks in your intake or exhaust. This is done by using a CarMichael Angelo/ mike 1157 page 499 ish style air compressor and a plumbers bung leak tester.

You'll nail the problem if its a fuel delivery or leak with a few hours of your time.

Some of this stuff us what all project development guys like Jack Roush and the SHO engineers dealt with.

Fuel developments are hard...flow has to match the engine needs without the return line problems. Ive had nothing but problems with electric pumps on performance cars. Check this first.

Good fortune. Other guys can weigh in if you think I'm outa left field with this.
 

guhfluh

Famous Member
What injectors are being run?

Many of those older style have issues with heat. There is also the possibility of injector driver overheat, depending on what injector ohm range, how they're wired and how they're driven.
 

xctasy

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Good point.

Point and shoot with a borrowed infrared thermometer to check.

the 4.9 big six used the squirel blower fan to cool its injectors.
 

67Straightsix

Well-known member
I apologize for my absence for so long - was on vacation then started into my seven day work week so the car has taken a backseat.
Still working on my heat soak problem. The car runs beautifully when the temp is below 195 - but when in traffic the temp gets up to 205 and then my fuel problems start.
Here's a run down on my diagnostics on some of the suggestions I've received:
I have access to a smoke leak detector - no leaks
I checked fuel pressure under load and it was spot on - don't see any fuel delivery problems from fuel pump
The injectors I'm using are Holley 36lb per hour and the injector driver/computer is inside the car (well insulated)
Where I'm seeing problems is when the engine gets over 200 degrees - I think either the injectors are affected by the heat or the fuel in the fuel rail is boiling. Because of the design and location of the headers the whole intake is getting too hot. So now I've installed a turbo blanket and insulated the bottom of the intake manifold as well as the injectors which helped bring down the temperature about 10 degrees. But the manifold and the fuel rail is still getting too hot. Working on insulating the fuel rail as soon as the car cools down. I'm thinking of venting the hood to get the hot air out - and hoping not to use a fan.
 

Soldmy66

Well-known member
pmuller9":152n0cyn said:
This is where coating the headers with a thermal barrier would help a lot.

X2

Also, I believe DEI makes some insulating products that may help. Regardless, ceramic coating the manifold/headers (inside and out) may drop under-hood temps by several hundred degrees.
 

xctasy

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You need a significant drop in injector temperature. Convection can be pulled out by six tubes to the injectors, or one vent to the whole fuel rail, and it'll look awesome.


Looking at your engine.

pmnRG3XTj



That whole rail is a 24 inch heat sink that can be cooled with an encapsulated mirror and reflect the heat away from the injectors and engine.



I'm sure you'll make it look great. You could even use a whole reflector tube, and have it dran any rainfall back down under the starter motor.


Like this

fluorescent-light-reflector-500x500.jpg



250px-Parab.gif



Cool fuel will cool the injectors from the heat sink they attach to...the combined RHS intake and tubing header exhaust of the non cross flow head.
 

67Straightsix

Well-known member
pmuller9":2jjoysfd said:
This is where coating the headers with a thermal barrier would help a lot.

I thought I would save some money and wrap the header instead of coating it. :banghead: Now a simple job of sending the header to get coated is going to be a big job.

When building the intake heat was a big concern. I was hoping I had the fuel rail far enough away from the header that the heat wouldn't be as much of an issue as it is. Also, I incorrectly assumed the flow of fuel would cool the fuel rail more than it does. As far as a heat shield, I've been trying to figure out a way to fit one in. A work in progress...
 

gus91326

Well-known member
Supporter 2018
Silly question, but what is the temp sensor for your fan set at? My car was regular running 210 in traffic until I went in to have it tuned. The shop reset my fan to come on at 180 and engine temps never exceed 190 and it runs way better for it.
 
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